Thailand to tax residents’ foreign income irrespective of remittance

[redwood1]

18 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

I've only scanned the video you provided because it's very similar to many others that I have seen. This one tries to tell us that all the proposed tax changes are only assumed to be happening but in fact are only proposals. That is true in respect of two of the items, including negative income tax and also the tax on worldwide income, those two things are only proposals at this stage. 

 

But the important change that took place last year is the reinterpretation of the overseas remittance rules, that is not a proposal, that is a done deal and has been in effect since 1 January this year. It is that rule change that will force many foreigners in Thailand who are tax residents, and who remit income above a certain level to Thailand each year, to potentially file a tax return.

 

As far as your tax position is concerned:

 

It looks as though all your pension income is potentially assessable to Thai tax and that none of it is exempt by treaty (DTA). If indeed that is the case, the scenario I described earlier is what your liability to tax appears to be, unless you are able to invoke the DTA and use UK tax to offset Thai tax. I'm also assuming that no changes are announced between now and tax filing time next year, that could potentially alter your Thai tax liability.

 

 

 

Tax liability.....Bla bla....Nothing is set in stone with this whole tax train wreck...And every last person or at least 99.9% will be scheming to pay....Zero.....Thats....  0.0

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

Tax liability.....Bla bla....Nothing is set in stone with this whole tax train wreck...And every last person or at least 99.9% will be scheming to pay....Zero.....Thats....  0.0

Por 161 and 162, are both set in stone.

[TorquayFan]

Thanks very much Chiang Mai.

 

I'm wondering when "tax filing time" next year is ? My inclination is not to rush into tax registration whilst all this is settling down.

 

As these measures progress, I wonder if there will be any recognition that monthly pension payments, particularly private pension payments, do not represent earnings of the previous year as such i.e. they are repayments to me of earnings I made many years previously, in this case, from 1985 to 2008.

 

My 'Retirement Visa' comes up for renewal on 31st January 2025 - I wonder if I will have to be in compliance with a Tax registration, by that stage ?

 

Thanks for your help. It's important because balanced comment on the topic, is hard to find. Hopefully others will have found your answers helpful too. ATB

[chiang mai]

13 minutes ago, TorquayFan said:

Thanks very much Chiang Mai.

 

I'm wondering when "tax filing time" next year is ? My inclination is not to rush into tax registration whilst all this is settling down.

 

As these measures progress, I wonder if there will be any recognition that monthly pension payments, particularly private pension payments, do not represent earnings of the previous year as such i.e. they are repayments to me of earnings I made many years previously, in this case, from 1985 to 2008.

 

My 'Retirement Visa' comes up for renewal on 31st January 2025 - I wonder if I will have to be in compliance with a Tax registration, by that stage ?

 

Thanks for your help. It's important because balanced comment on the topic, is hard to find. Hopefully others will have found your answers helpful too. ATB

Tax filing time is 1 Jan thru 31 mar.

[TorquayFan]

Re. my last - It's a shame you jokers who chuckle and confuse don't try a little harder to contribute constructively e.g what are you confused about ?

[TorquayFan]

Thanks Chiang Mai - so I wonder if I'll get my Visa renewal without Tax Reg, due Jan 31st ? MMMmmmm

[redwood1]

12 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Tax filing time is 1 Jan thru 31 mar.

 

I would give these dates a maybe in 2026 or 2027 or 2028  with how  messed up it all is...

[chiang mai]

Just now, redwood1 said:

 

I would give these date a maybe in 2026 or 2027  with how  messed up it all is...

No RW, those dates are the same every year. 

[chiang mai]

12 minutes ago, TorquayFan said:

Thanks Chiang Mai - so I wonder if I'll get my Visa renewal without Tax Reg, due Jan 31st ? MMMmmmm

Your visa extension will almost  certainly NOT be affected, next year, but who knows in the future.

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

 

Quote

Tax liability.....Bla bla....Nothing is set in stone with this whole tax train wreck...And every last person or at least 99.9% will be scheming to pay....Zero.....Thats....  0.0

 

Por 161 and 162, are both set in stone.

 

With respect - they are not law.  

 

One translation (of 161 and 162) is they are "Departmental Instruction" or "Departmental Orders".  Some youtube bloggers (of which I place NO Faith) speculate they could be challenged in court.  One will NOT see me challenging such.

 

Still - I speculate (and speculate is the operative word) that the Thai RD will ultimately want the Thai law amended to incorporate these Departmental instructions/orders. 

 

But that is 'speculation' - where given the changes being talked about - that is just more speculation to add to the pile..

[ukrules]

1 minute ago, chiang mai said:

Your visa extension will almost  certainly NOT be affected, next year, but who knows in the future.

 

It is interesting and they could link visa extensions to this if there was some massive inter departmental communications.

 

I doubt it will happen but who knows.

For myself I extended my Thailand Elite membership to the full 20 year package last year sometime and as such if I travel once per year I never have to do an extension at all, I just continue to get 1 year entries each time I arrive.
 

I will be in Thailand for a few days this month and I'll get a 1 year entry stamp even though I'm exiting a couple of days later, just a little business to take care of which will see me through until the end of the year.

[jayboy]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

But the important change that took place last year is the reinterpretation of the overseas remittance rules, that is not a proposal, that is a done deal and has been in effect since 1 January this year. It is that rule change that will force many foreigners in Thailand who are tax residents, and who remit income above a certain level to Thailand each year, to potentially file a tax return.

 

I think that sums it up accurately and concisely.

 

My one question would be to ask what is meant by "to potentially file a tax return." Given the criteria you outline surely these foreigners must file a tax return?

 

And just as a comment on the Integrity Legal video, I'm not a great fan of these videos.The American lawyer seems to know his stuff but he is too impetuous for my taste.I like my legal (and tax) advice to be cool, measured and thoughtful.

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, oldcpu said:

 

With respect - they are not law.  

 

One translation (of 161 and 162) is they are "Departmental Instruction" or "Departmental Orders".  Some youtube bloggers (of which I place NO Faith) speculate they could be challenged in court.  One will NOT see me challenging such.

 

Still - I speculate (and speculate is the operative word) that the Thai RD will ultimately want the Thai law amended to incorporate these Departmental instructions/orders. 

 

But that is 'speculation' - where given the changes being talked about - that is just more speculation to add to the pile..

Por 161 is a reinterpretation of an existing law, no new law is required. There was speculation one year that it might be challenged in the courts but no challenge has arisen since.

[chiang mai]

3 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

I think that sums it up accurately and concisely.

 

My one question would be to ask what is meant by "to potentially file a tax return." Given the criteria you outline surely these foreigners must file a tax return?

 

And just as a comment on the Integrity Legal video, I'm not a great fan of these videos.The American lawyer seems to know his stuff but he is too impetuous for my taste.I like my legal (and tax) advice to be cool, measured and thoughtful.

If you don't have sufficient assessable income during the year, to breach the minimum threshold, no tax return is required.

[chiang mai]

5 minutes ago, ukrules said:

 

It is interesting and they could link visa extensions to this if there was some massive inter departmental communications.

 

I doubt it will happen but who knows.

For myself I extended my Thailand Elite membership to the full 20 year package last year sometime and as such if I travel once per year I never have to do an extension at all, I just continue to get 1 year entries each time I arrive.
 

I will be in Thailand for a few days this month and I'll get a 1 year entry stamp even though I'm exiting a couple of days later, just a little business to take care of which will see me through until the end of the year.

FWIW I think that linkage is inevitable at some point.

[oldcpu]

12 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Por 161 is a reinterpretation of an existing law, no new law is required. There was speculation one year that it might be challenged in the courts but no challenge has arisen since.

 

yes true ... 161 and 162 are departmental instructions and orders, they are NOT law, but the are the REVENUE DEPARTMENTS interpretation - they are not the Thai courts interpretation.

 

And yes true - no one as of yet wants to challenge the Revenue Department in a court. 

 

I know for 100% certain I would not challenge them. 

 

Rather,  I use 161 and 162 as part of the guidelines in helping me to structure my finances.

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

yes true ... 161 and 162 are departmental instructions and orders, they are NOT law, but the are the REVENUE DEPARTMENTS interpretation - they are not the Thai courts interpretation.

 

And yes true - no one as of yet wants to challenge the Revenue Department in a court. 

 

I know for 100% certain I would not challenge them. 

 

Rather,  I use 161 and 162 as part of the guidelines in helping me to structure my finances.

I'm unclear what the point is of this exchange. The instructions were issued over a year ago and there has been no challenge and we are now nearing the end of the first tax year during which the rules were in effect. I don't see there's much else to be said in this matter, unless people want to grasp at straws that some white night with deep pockets and much influence comes along to challenge the TRD in the courts......at this late stage in the game I wouldn't bet even one satang on that happening.

[oldcpu]

17 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

I'm unclear what the point is of this exchange. The instructions were issued over a year ago and there has been no challenge and we are now nearing the end of the first tax year during which the rules were in effect. I don't see there's much else to be said in this matter, unless people want to grasp at straws that some white night with deep pockets and much influence comes along to challenge the TRD in the courts......at this late stage in the game I wouldn't bet even one satang on that happening.

 

Agreed, ... and 161 and 162 gave some good guidelines on what to do in the remaining months of year 2023 - which my wife and I made full advantage of, bringing a LOT of savings from outside of Thailand, into Thailand before the end of the calendar year 2023.

 

As I noted, 161 and 162 have provided some additional guidelines for one to follow in managing one's finances.

 

I  guess my 'quibble' is that they are not law (ergo not in stone) but rather they are the current not challenged RD interpretation.

[NoDisplayName]

48 minutes ago, ukrules said:

It is interesting and they could link visa extensions to this if there was some massive inter departmental communications.

 

I doubt it will happen but who knows.

 

Most likely would be for immigration to add one more item to the list of requirements when applying for an extension.

 

-   Bank guarantee letter

-   6-month statement

-   Tax clearance certificate or prior year return if tax resident based on in/out stamps in passport.

 

Easy for them.  No interdepartmental communications or software updates necessary.  Just another check box for them to tick off.  And a nice earner for the TRD when local officials realize they can charge 500 baht for a free service.

[Yumthai]

56 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

And yes true - no one as of yet wants to challenge the Revenue Department in a court. 

In order to be challenged TRD should first enforce (audit > penalties) their rules.

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Most likely would be for immigration to add one more item to the list of requirements when applying for an extension.

 

-   Bank guarantee letter

-   6-month statement

-   Tax clearance certificate or prior year return if tax resident based on in/out stamps in passport.

 

Easy for them.  No interdepartmental communications or software updates necessary.  Just another check box for them to tick off.  And a nice earner for the TRD when local officials realize they can charge 500 baht for a free service.

 

Hopefully a tax clearance certificate will not be required for annual extensions. 

 

I do believe the tax clearance certificate requirement is still on the books (it was once required for exit out of Thailand if one had certain visas), but its enforcement was dropped over a decade ago (maybe dropped much longer ago than that).  so I suppose it could be brought back again if a very strong desire was to do so. 

 

BUT I don't think it is all straight forward ...  If one already has a LOT of savings in Thailand, one could easily go for years and never bring money into the country, and if retired never 'qualify' for a Thai tax ID (an example of this is myself BEFORE when I had a Type-O/OA visa).  Ergo in that case, one who does not have a tax-ID would not nominally qualify for a tax certificate. Or would they?

 

Further, a tax certificate would thou create a bit more work for immigration to have to collect the certificates, and possibly even spend time confirming such certificate is valid via contact with the RD who presumably would issue the certificate.   I suspect immigration (and possibly the RD who have to issue the certificates ??  ) may not want that extra work 

 

...  so lets hope that does not come to pass.

 

[Danderman123]

3 hours ago, TorquayFan said:

 

 

As these measures progress, I wonder if there will be any recognition that monthly pension payments, particularly private pension payments, do not represent earnings of the previous year as such i.e. they are repayments to me of earnings I made many years previously, in this case, from 1985 to 2008.

 

First off, there may be a DTA between your country and Thailand that covers your pension.

 

I should ask if you pay taxes on your pension to your home country (or if you would if you didn't live in Thailand).

 

 

[TorquayFan]

Hi Dander. No DTA between Thailand and UK. Yes I pay UK tax under self assessment for 15 years, every 6 months. We'll see as to the rest of it.

 

Forewarned is forearmed ! Thanks all.

[oldcpu]

11 minutes ago, TorquayFan said:

No DTA between Thailand and UK.

 

 

Not that it affects myself (as it does not) but there is, I believe, a DTA between Thailand and the UK.

[TorquayFan]

Old - I wish. Here's another one from 'integrity legal'. MMMmmm

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbm8xeIEI3w

[oldcpu]

2 minutes ago, TorquayFan said:

Old - I wish. Here's another one from 'integrity legal'. MMMmmm

 

https://youtu.be/tbm8xeIEI3w

 

I am not keen on looking at an 'integrity legal' video.  Maybe on another day.

 

Note this UK government website link on the UK/Thai double tax agreement:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/thailand-tax-treaties

 

[NoDisplayName]

21 minutes ago, TorquayFan said:

Hi Dander. No DTA between Thailand and UK. Yes I pay UK tax under self assessment for 15 years, every 6 months. We'll see as to the rest of it.

 

Forewarned is forearmed ! Thanks all.

 

You sure 'bout dat?

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/thailand-tax-treaties

[chiang mai]

6 hours ago, TorquayFan said:

Hi Dander. No DTA between Thailand and UK. Yes I pay UK tax under self assessment for 15 years, every 6 months. We'll see as to the rest of it.

 

Forewarned is forearmed ! Thanks all.

The UK/Thai DTA is here:

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a80bddc40f0b623026953eb/uk-thailand-dtc180281_-_in_force.pdf

[chiang mai]

On the subject of DTAs:

 

We heard months ago that some DTA's were being renegotiated but we haven't heard anything since. Whether that was true or not, I dunno, if it was, it's likely to be a lengthy process. Bottom line is, don't be surprised if you hear that the terms of some DTA's have changed. 

[TorquayFan]

 

Old, NoDisplay and ChiangMai - thanks for the heads up. PwC also list the UK as having DT status although the UK seems missing from some lists.

 

Old - in your earlier post - "Hopefully a tax clearance certificate will not be required for annual extensions".  I hope that proves to be the case for my renewal in January.

 

GLA