TM30... I didn't know this.

[MeePeeMai]

13 hours ago, Liquorice said:

1st residence, a rental - uploaded copy of passport data page, owners Tabien Baan and ID card.

 

My point was that if you rent a house or apt. from a Thai person (not your wife / not a usufruct / not your house or your wife's house etc.), pay the deposit / sign the lease / pay the 1st months rent and go to Immigration to do your address change notification, they will ask you for a TM30.

 

As a "tenant" in a rental (house/apt not belonging to you, your wife or your family member, not a usufruct etc.), one cannot get the TM30 done if the landlord does not comply and give you a signed copy of his/her Thai ID card, signed copy of his/her Tabian Ban, and sign the TM30 form (or do it online).

 

YES,  you can walk into your Immigration Office and hand carry the signed lease agreement, signed TM30 form, signed copy of your landlords ID card and signed copy of your landlord's Tabian Ban (with his/her phone number on it somewhere) but I don't call this doing the TM30 yourself.  I call this just delivering the paperwork from your landlord to your local IO.  

 

If your new landlord refuses to give you a signed copy of his/her ID card and/or a signed copy of his/her Tabian Ban and or refuses to sign the form or do the TM30 online then you cannot accomplish the TM30 without the items mentioned above.  You can go to immigration and cry and complain that your landlord won't do it but they will have no sympathy and will not look the other way and just plug one in for you in the system (nor will they accept a donation to help see it through).

 

This has been my experience in the last 7 years at 2 different Immigration office in two separate cities on numerous occasions and dealing with numerous different Immigration Officers in those offices.

[MeePeeMai]

13 hours ago, Liquorice said:

If the foreigner cannot register and submit the TM30;
1. Then why does the TM30 registration form have the option to register as the 'foreigner' or a 'Thai'?

 

Some "foreigners" own their own condo or apt (or house) and can therefore complete the TM 30 for themselves and their foreign guests (as a foreigner Housemaster/possessor etc.)

 

13 hours ago, Liquorice said:

2. Then why does the drop-down box have the option of registering as the tenant/possessor?

 

The way the Immigration Officer explained this one to me is that this person (tenant or possessor) would be a close family member or friend of the Thai owner who is in charge of, or managing the house/apt for the owner while they are away (or unavailable due to working overseas / on an extended vacation or trip / ill and unable to complete the TM30 on their own merit).  That's what she told me.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 22 by MeePeeMai

[MeePeeMai]

11 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

Of course, taking legal action against an immigration office is to be avoided if at all possible but if you're stuck, what are you going to do?  Move house and register in a different area just to avoid an I.O. who is making rules up as they go along? I wouldn't be prepared to do that.

 

I've taken legal action in Thailand twice, not on immigration matters but on things that are commonly held by foreigners as 'impossible' - the farang always loses type stuff.  I won my case on both occasions and in fact found the Thai legal system to be very fair and not at all biased. 

 

 

I believe you and yes, I considered going this route a few times (out of frustration) but this is a line I have never crossed, mostly because of the possibility of retaliation and the fact that I will have to visit this IO again and probably have to deal with the same IO again after the fact.

 

It's something I wouldn't want to do unless it was an absolute last resort (so to speak).

 

Sad that it has to come to that though.  I just want uniformity, consistency and clarity from the "law enforcement" officials but I guess that is just asking or expecting too much here.

[Chris Daley]

Don't do the 90s days report.  Do a 365 day report once a year.  Costs about the same.

[RocketDog]

On 6/21/2024 at 8:03 AM, MeePeeMai said:

 

This is the typical Thai BS I've been complaining about for years. 

 

Immigration wanted a TM30 from my landlord ... my landlord refused/did not know how to do one.  Immigration said it was MY responsibility (though I could not do one for myself as I was living in a rented home).  Immigration said I would be fined for not having one...  I went back and forth from Loei city to Chang Khan trying to accomplish this feat.

 

But when I read the Thai law on the TM30 (reporting of a foreigners stay) it clearly puts the sole responsibility on the landlord (not the foreigner) and it is the landlord that could be fined for not reporting the foreigners stay.

 

But in typical Thai fashion, the burden is placed on the foreigner or "guest" and the Thai citizens bear no responsibility whatsoever.  

 

Hotels are required to submit TM30's for foreigners staying on their property, yet there is no penalty or enforcement if they don't file one.  But go to do a 90 report or get your annual extension and you "don't have a TM30 on file, then you are the guilty party.

 

Brings back bad memories for me just dealing will this one simple aspect of living there as a retiree.

Check the rules or ask your IM.

YOU CAN FILE THE TM30 YOURSELF EVEN IF YOU LIVE IN A RENTAL HOUSE.

 

I've done it several times in Chaam and Hua Hin.

 

I see things like your post regularly but have almost given up trying to dispel this misinformation.

[Digitalbanana]

1 hour ago, Chris Daley said:

Don't do the 90s days report.  Do a 365 day report once a year.  Costs about the same.

Utter nonsense. The annual extension needs a 90 days report. 90 day reports are free but there's a 2000THB fine at annual ext time if you have not done 90 day reports.

[Liquorice]

9 hours ago, MeePeeMai said:

 

My point was that if you rent a house or apt. from a Thai person (not your wife / not a usufruct / not your house or your wife's house etc.), pay the deposit / sign the lease / pay the 1st months rent and go to Immigration to do your address change notification, they will ask you for a TM30.

 

As a "tenant" in a rental (house/apt not belonging to you, your wife or your family member, not a usufruct etc.), one cannot get the TM30 done if the landlord does not comply and give you a signed copy of his/her Thai ID card, signed copy of his/her Tabian Ban, and sign the TM30 form (or do it online).

 

YES,  you can walk into your Immigration Office and hand carry the signed lease agreement, signed TM30 form, signed copy of your landlords ID card and signed copy of your landlord's Tabian Ban (with his/her phone number on it somewhere) but I don't call this doing the TM30 yourself.  I call this just delivering the paperwork from your landlord to your local IO.  

 

If your new landlord refuses to give you a signed copy of his/her ID card and/or a signed copy of his/her Tabian Ban and or refuses to sign the form or do the TM30 online then you cannot accomplish the TM30 without the items mentioned above.  You can go to immigration and cry and complain that your landlord won't do it but they will have no sympathy and will not look the other way and just plug one in for you in the system (nor will they accept a donation to help see it through).

 

This has been my experience in the last 7 years at 2 different Immigration office in two separate cities on numerous occasions and dealing with numerous different Immigration Officers in those offices.

Immigration are giving you BS.

 

As confirmed by others, you can complete the TM30 online or by hand, sign it, your name, as the tenant.
I've done this 3 times, once in person, twice online, no mention of the landlord/owner's name for the two online TM30's.

 

This is the email I received last time I registered to file a TM30.

 

From:notify.residence(at)pibics.com

To:alan XXXXX XXXXXXXXX[at]yahoo.co.uk

 

Sun, 26 May 2019 at 11:08

 

เรียน ผู้แจ้งรับคนต่างด้าวเข้าพักอาศัย

ชื่อที่พักอาศัย(Name) : Private House

กรุณากดที่นี่หรือกดลิ้งเพื่อยืนยันอีเมลในการลงทะเบียน Please click here to confirm your email address. https://extranet.immigration.go.th/fn24online/confirmEmailServlet?key=NDc2MkZoTkdnNFk3UGdCampPVXB4Vk5Ialdsbm9uSnhYTS9HQWpXVGMzMU9MZVdseHQ5RWdFTkVJV0pFUWdIWjFqSmRmdm5HM0UwWQpNTlg5QWZVTElRPT0=

ขอบคุณค่ะ(Thank you.)

สำนักงานตรวจคนเข้าเมือง(Thailand Immigration Bureau)

 

How many Thais do you know called 'Alan'.

 

If the landlord won't comply by providing copies of his TB and ID card, then move house.
Inform Immigration, if they state it's a Thais responsibility, then they can't fine you.
The one time I've known a landlord reluctant to comply, when advised, Immigration phoned the landlord, and he soon complied.

[MangoKorat]

9 hours ago, MeePeeMai said:

It's something I wouldn't want to do unless it was an absolute last resort (so to speak).

Some of the time, there's a 'reason' why they are awkward and invent their own rules - if you know what I mean.  I know people will say I'm moving to the wrong country if I want to avoid that - and I do, I hate it and won't take part in it. Reading between the lines, I think that was the case with my mate - one phone call from his lawyer and the matter was sorted.

 

I won't even pay them when I've, supposedly been driving too fast - so far calling their bluff has resulted in me being sent on my way.  The one exception being if I have actually been doing something wrong.

 

I have all this to go through again when I move over later this year and if I have any problems, I won't muck about.  No shouting, no getting angry, just point out the rules and if there's no movement, leave it to my lawyer. Not that I'm expecting any problems - they will have been through all of this many times by now so any awkwardness and I'll presume they are looking for a 'little help', say my goodbye's and let the lawyer deal with it. Yes, it will cost me but once they know I can't be 'milked', I doubt they'll try again. Conversely, its only my opinion but if you make a contribution, you'll be marked as a donor and be expected to 'help' every time you have to renew your extensions etc.

 

Anyway, try doing it the way Liqourice has suggested online and hopefully you'll get sorted.  If you do it that way and still can't register - to me that would suggest that your office has somehow 'blocked' that channel and are on the take.

Edited June 22 by MangoKorat

[MangoKorat]

10 hours ago, MeePeeMai said:

The way the Immigration Officer explained this one to me is that this person (tenant or possessor) would be a close family member or friend of the Thai owner who is in charge of, or managing the house/apt for the owner while they are away (or unavailable due to working overseas / on an extended vacation or trip / ill and unable to complete the TM30 on their own merit).  That's what she told me.

Reading that, I'm not sure if she's looking for some assistance or if its a downright lack of training coupled with that wonderful thing - face.

 

Having dealt with all sorts of things that a lot of foreigners never experience in Thailand, I never fail to be amazed at just how many officials don't actually know the rules pertaining to their line of work.  Now, if I was a bit rusty or simply didn't know something connected to my job, I'd have no problem in asking.  With a Thai though, that would mean massive loss of face.

 

Then there's the matter of hierarchy.  In the eyes of the 'stuck up' type of Thai, foreigners are on a level just below that of a soi dog.  I would guess though that a lawyer, is either above on on par with an I.O. 

 

I recall an encounter I had when trying to register my Usufruct with the local Land Office manager who point blank refused.  The same lawyer that I've been refering to in this thread, prepared my agreement and I had all the correct documentation to enable registration.  I called the lawyer and she agreed to meet me at the Land Office the next morning (for a fee of course).  At the appointed time, I handed her my file, containing the exact same documents as I'd had the day before.  I didn't understand a word of what was said but it sounded firm but polite.  There was a slight finger wagging (from my lawyer) and then smiles all round.  Less than 15 minutes later I left with an updated channote with my Usufruct registered and stamped on the back.

[Maestro]

13 hours ago, RocketDog said:

YOU CAN FILE THE TM30 YOURSELF EVEN IF YOU LIVE IN A RENTAL HOUSE.

 

This is correct. Tenants can file the TM 30 on their own.

 

Section 4 of the Immigration Act:

Quote

“Householder” means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house, whether in the capacity of owner, tenant, or in any other capacity whatsoever in accordance with the law on civil registration.

 

Section 38  of the Immigration Act:

Quote

The householder, the owner or the possessor of a dwelling place or a hotel manager, who takes in, as a resident, an alien with permission to temporarily stay in the Kingdom, shall notify the competent official at the immigration office
located in the locality in which the house, dwelling place, or hotel is located within twenty four hours from the time the alien has taken residence.

 

According to Section 4, whoever is the "chief possessor" of the house (in Section 38 called the dwelling place) is the householder.

• If a tenant is the chief possessor, the tenant is the householder.
• If the owner is the chief possessor, the owner is the householder.
• If another person, natural or juristic, is the chief possessor, that other person is the householder.

In my opinion, with a rented property it is best for the householder, ie the tenant, to submit the TM.30 notification. It is he, the tenant, who has the sole authority to decide who resides in the dwelling and it is he who knows when a foreigner, ie himself or an invited guest, arrives and whether this arrival makes a TM.30 notification necessary.

 

In fact, as the owner I would write into the lease contract that the tenant is responsible for compliance with any and all immigration requirements and that I will provide the necessary documents for that purpose.

 

[MeePeeMai]

6 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

Reading that, I'm not sure if she's looking for some assistance or if its a downright lack of training coupled with that wonderful thing - face.

 

Having dealt with all sorts of things that a lot of foreigners never experience in Thailand, I never fail to be amazed at just how many officials don't actually know the rules pertaining to their line of work.  Now, if I was a bit rusty or simply didn't know something connected to my job, I'd have no problem in asking.  With a Thai though, that would mean massive loss of face.

 

Then there's the matter of hierarchy.  In the eyes of the 'stuck up' type of Thai, foreigners are on a level just below that of a soi dog.  I would guess though that a lawyer, is either above on on par with an I.O. 

 

I believe this is EXACTLY what the problem was for me.  

 

I think these types assume that the foreigner will just eventually give up, or give in (at which time the rogue IO chalks it up as another "win").

 

I just hate dealing with this type of nonsense. 

 

Same type of thing happened to me in East Jawa in Indonesia 25 years ago when navigating my way through getting married (with an Indonesian woman)... the arrogant xenophobic chief or boss at the Kantor Urusan Agama (Govt. office to get your marriage registered and legalized) put up every roadblock he could think of to try to prevent me (a "Bule" pronounced bu-lei , which is the equivalent of the Thai word farang) from being able to get married (legally) because he hated foreigners and despised any Indonesian/foreigner marriage or family.

 

I finally had about 30 very angry family members show up at his office (after numerous failed attempts to get him to do his job properly), and they had to threaten to cause huge problems for him (with the main office/his boss in Jakarta) if he didn't allow us to get married.

 

He finally gave in but he still dragged his feet and it took months for him to finally produce our marriage book (legal proof of marriage) which should have taken less than a week.  Then he proceeded to lecture my wife and I (on reasons why we shouldn't go through with it) for an hour or so before he finally gave us our marriage books (with a severe look of disdain and pain in his face).  He died (in his office) of a heart attack a few months later.

 

Anyway, getting a little off topic here but I appreciate the help, input and clarification from all in this TM30 thread.

 

[shdmn]

I always get a chuckle out of these "It's never happened to me therefore it should never happen to anyone" responses.  Like it is something OP is doing wrong.  It doesn't happen to you until it does ...because TiT.

Edited June 22 by shdmn

[SAFETY FIRST]

Since the strict enforcement of TM30 I've decided to reduce my travels around Thailand.

 

Every now and then I'd shoot off for a night or a few days to wherever, spend a night or two at a hotel, do some shopping, go to the beach etc., then come back home.

Many times I'd follow the Sukhumvit (first night Ban Chang) end up at the Cambodia border, nice drive at the narrowest part of Thailand, following the coast, beautiful. 

 

Now I'm forced to check in, TM30, when I get home.

 

I've forgotten to TM30 in the past, so then it's down to Jomtien line up, pay the money and head down to the bar for a deserved drink (immigration office drives a man to drink). 🍺

 

Edited June 22 by SAFETY FIRST

[SAFETY FIRST]

1 hour ago, MeePeeMai said:

navigating my way through getting married (with an Indonesian woman)

How's the marriage going? 

 

1 hour ago, MeePeeMai said:

Anyway, getting a little off topic here

Yes, me to, a little of topic. 😂

 

 

[shdmn]

19 hours ago, MeePeeMai said:

 

...

You can go to immigration and cry and complain that your landlord won't do it but they will have no sympathy and will not look the other way and just plug one in for you in the system (nor will they accept a donation to help see it through).

 

This has been my experience in the last 7 years at 2 different Immigration office in two separate cities on numerous occasions and dealing with numerous different Immigration Officers in those offices.

I believe that a visa agent can probably be of some assistance in this situation.

Edited June 22 by shdmn

[Skipalongcassidy]

22 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

Hospital stay has nothing to do with anything.

The issue covered in many threads is doing 90 day report online when someone has stayed anywhere be that hotel, hospital etc.

I suggest if you had made TM47 in person or via mail no TM30 would be required (at most offices) 

Can you show me where it has ever been mentioned that a hospital stay gets issued a TM30... that's all that I am asking.  Then I would have known that I could not renew online and would have taken care of it in person... 

[brianburi]

20 hours ago, Digitalbanana said:

Utter nonsense. The annual extension needs a 90 days report. 90 day reports are free but there's a 2000THB fine at annual ext time if you have not done 90 day reports.

Surely only required if you spend more than 90 days here??

I know someone who spends his retirement between London,  Dubai and Thailand.  He has a multi re-entry permit.

Lucky dude.......

[mokwit]

On 6/22/2024 at 8:55 AM, MeePeeMai said:

 

My point was that if you rent a house or apt. from a Thai person (not your wife / not a usufruct / not your house or your wife's house etc.), pay the deposit / sign the lease / pay the 1st months rent and go to Immigration to do your address change notification, they will ask you for a TM30.

 

As a "tenant" in a rental (house/apt not belonging to you, your wife or your family member, not a usufruct etc.), one cannot get the TM30 done if the landlord does not comply and give you a signed copy of his/her Thai ID card, signed copy of his/her Tabian Ban, and sign the TM30 form (or do it online).

 

YES,  you can walk into your Immigration Office and hand carry the signed lease agreement, signed TM30 form, signed copy of your landlords ID card and signed copy of your landlord's Tabian Ban (with his/her phone number on it somewhere) but I don't call this doing the TM30 yourself.  I call this just delivering the paperwork from your landlord to your local IO.  

 

If your new landlord refuses to give you a signed copy of his/her ID card and/or a signed copy of his/her Tabian Ban and or refuses to sign the form or do the TM30 online then you cannot accomplish the TM30 without the items mentioned above.  You can go to immigration and cry and complain that your landlord won't do it but they will have no sympathy and will not look the other way and just plug one in for you in the system (nor will they accept a donation to help see it through).

 

This has been my experience in the last 7 years at 2 different Immigration office in two separate cities on numerous occasions and dealing with numerous different Immigration Officers in those offices.

Immigration eliminated any goodwill between me and them* with their making filing of TM30 the problem of the extension holder despite the requirement for documentation from the owner, and refusing to process extensions without one. Filing as "Possessor", you are dependent on documents from a third party who may not want to provide them. If a Landlord hasn't filed then shouldn't it be the Immigration Bureau, a division of the RTP who goes after this lawbreaker? CW in fairness will apparently accept a lease and utility bills receipts for filing as "possessor" but it's not a given - agent wheedling required - they prefer the owner docs and that is what was required by an agent filing on my behalf. Another agent who did my TM47 at CW told me they need TM30 to do it.

 

It has also made moving apartments trickier - you can tell a Landlord that unless he provides the necessary TM30 docs you won't sign, but he still might waste your time with the old "I've been renting out for 20 years, you don't need a TM30"

 

*yes I know, they are probably not all that bothered.

 

 

Edited Sunday at 04:44 AM by mokwit

[MeePeeMai]

7 hours ago, SAFETY FIRST said:

How's the marriage going? 

 

 

It lasted 16 years, the longest of my three marriages (my Thai wife only lasted about 3 years).  Now I'm a happy single man once again (and I will stay that way from now on).  Now back on topic (sorry MODs)

[MeePeeMai]

7 hours ago, shdmn said:

I believe that a visa agent can probably be of some assistance in this situation.

 

Agents are not available in some areas (Chiang Khan / Loei for example).   I tried desperately to find one at that time.

[MangoKorat]

15 hours ago, MeePeeMai said:

I think these types assume that the foreigner will just eventually give up, or give in (at which time the rogue IO chalks it up as another "win").

 

I just hate dealing with this type of nonsense. 

And that is exactly why I advocate using a lawyer.

 

You can either play the game or use a lawyer - they will both cost you money but the likelihood is that you will only need to pay a lawyer once. Pay an 'official' once and you will pay every time.

 

I don't advocate arguing with an I.O. - even if they're not looking for any 'help', face will prevent them from admitting they are wrong.  Just sit there with pen and paper, write down their reasons for refusing to go along with whatever your request is, take their name and bid your goodbye's. Then let a lawyer deal with it.

 

You could of course, be armed with the rules and state 'it seems to say here that I am the housemaster' and see if that changes things but if the I.O. is looking for 'assistance' that probably won't help. There's no harm in trying but you need to judge when you are doing more harm than good.

 

In suggesting using a lawyer, I would also state that much depends on the lawyer you choose. There are some, hopefully just a few, that may not handle things with the diplomacy required. Some may also have 'friends' in the department you are dealing with - that may seem helpful but in fact it could perpetuate the situation. What you are seeking is an end to the matter, not just a change to who hands over the envelope.

 

What you must remain acutely aware of is that the issue of 'face' is just about impossible to overcome in Thai society.  The deeper things go, the more arguing that goes on, the more 'face' will be lost when an 'official' eventually loses. Not in this situation but I've seen Thai's tell the most fantastic and ridiculous tales in order to appear to save face.  I have no idea why that should be, I guess as foreigners we could never even begin to understand why 'saving face' is such a facet of Thai society. Its not something we are taught from birth.

 

Couple that with the issue of 'hiearchy' - in that you, as a lowly foreigner, should not even dare to question the knowledge of a far higher being and it becomes clear why you need to engage professional help in such situations.

 

A good lawyer will not argue with the I.O. in your situation, they will simply re-apply on your behalf citing each requirement in the rules and the evidence provided to fulfill that requirement.

 

There are many that would simply say pay or use an agent (who will also pay). That will of course, also 'solve' the probem but only until next time.

Edited Sunday at 11:26 AM by MangoKorat

[MangoKorat]

13 hours ago, SAFETY FIRST said:

Now I'm forced to check in, TM30, when I get home.

I understand that it might seem a PITA but once you are registered, if the system is working correctly, surely it should only take seconds?

[SAFETY FIRST]

1 hour ago, MangoKorat said:

I understand that it might seem a PITA but once you are registered, if the system is working correctly, surely it should only take seconds?

Yes, but I'm a forgetful person. 

 

 

Edited Sunday at 12:40 PM by SAFETY FIRST

[jay36]

On 6/21/2024 at 1:22 PM, Celsius said:

 

And then?

 

It is agaunst the law?

 

The worst that happened is I would pay 2000b fine renewing the extension. Last time tho I did not even pay that as exiting the country and getting another visa left them completely in the dark. That is right. Last year I missed 3 90 day reports and paid 0 fine.

 

However, when I was doing everything properly they would fine me for staying 1 night in a hotel and not reporting back to my residence.

 

Play by the rules and lose. It is cheaper to pay the fine.

 

Its funny 1 year i literally forgot to do the check in for the entire year when i started working here i thought it was the homeowners thing and paniced and nobody cared, 200baht fine lol, no issue.