Secretary Baker in 1990 No extension of NATO "one inch to the east" what could go wrong?

[BobBKK]

[jas007]

And yet some still maintain that Baker’s statement about NATO expansion is “Russian propaganda.”  It’s a lie, it never happened, etc.  That’s how the powers that be operate.  If reality doesn’t fit their narrative, then reality is BS.  Only their narrative is “true.” They’ll do and say anything to support the narrative. Without it, their world would crumble. Of course, it’ll eventually crumble anyway, but only after a lot of people are killed in the process.

[billd766]

So if a politician said something 34 years ago, it is still sacrosanct today and can NEVER be changed.

 

I suppose that would be correct IF the world was exactly the same as it was 34 years ago, but it isn't.

 

34 years ago Russia was in a mess, breaking up and the East European states and their peoples were choosing to side with Russia or go to the West.

 

Russia had not annexed any part of the Ukraine and the Ukraine still had Russian nuclear missiles on their soil.

 

NATO was much smaller then.

 

Poland was not even a member of NATO.

 

East Germany was being reunited with West Germany, the Berlin Wall had been demolished and the Iron Curtain between the East and the West was being dismantled.

 

Putin was not president of Russia.

 

Yet you believe that what one person said 34 years ago is current today in a completely different world to then.

 

 

[Hummin]

17 minutes ago, billd766 said:

So if a politician said something 34 years ago, it is still sacrosanct today and can NEVER be changed.

 

I suppose that would be correct IF the world was exactly the same as it was 34 years ago, but it isn't.

 

34 years ago Russia was in a mess, breaking up and the East European states and their peoples were choosing to side with Russia or go to the West.

 

Russia had not annexed any part of the Ukraine and the Ukraine still had Russian nuclear missiles on their soil.

 

NATO was much smaller then.

 

Poland was not even a member of NATO.

 

East Germany was being reunited with West Germany, the Berlin Wall had been demolished and the Iron Curtain between the East and the West was being dismantled.

 

Putin was not president of Russia.

 

Yet you believe that what one person said 34 years ago is current today in a completely different world to then.

 

 

Try to explain Cuba, Venezuela and other South American countries who tried to walk away from USA, or did walk away

[johng]

33 minutes ago, billd766 said:

NATO was much smaller then.

Exactly the point...now it is much larger and Putin is not happy about it and is doing something about it Ukraine as the last buffer zone.

[BobBKK]

10 minutes ago, johng said:

Exactly the point...now it is much larger and Putin is not happy about it and is doing something about it Ukraine as the last buffer zone.

I think the evidence is clear. Ukraine was allowed to break away on condition of NO NATO.

A little-known fact for you - Zelensky was elected on a "Peace in Donbas ticket' after overthrowing the democratically elected president guided by Nuland and the CIA - cookies all around! Zelensky then went on to bomb Donbas, increasing the daily shelling from 5,000 to 13,000 from 2014 to 2022. It's an inconvenient truth.

[BobBKK]

50 minutes ago, billd766 said:

So if a politician said something 34 years ago, it is still sacrosanct today and can NEVER be changed.

 

I suppose that would be correct IF the world was exactly the same as it was 34 years ago, but it isn't.

 

34 years ago Russia was in a mess, breaking up and the East European states and their peoples were choosing to side with Russia or go to the West.

 

Russia had not annexed any part of the Ukraine and the Ukraine still had Russian nuclear missiles on their soil.

 

NATO was much smaller then.

 

Poland was not even a member of NATO.

 

East Germany was being reunited with West Germany, the Berlin Wall had been demolished and the Iron Curtain between the East and the West was being dismantled.

 

Putin was not president of Russia.

 

Yet you believe that what one person said 34 years ago is current today in a completely different world to then.

 

 

So, are we never to trust treaties, promises, and agreements? Your suggestion is chaos, lying, and betrayal everywhere—a world based on deceit and subterfuge.

This is what humanity has come to?  I hate to say it, but the USA is behind all this evil because it has a saviour complex - it thinks everywhere should be like America the Beautiful. Instead of cooperation we have domination.

[Ben Zioner]

16 minutes ago, johng said:

Exactly the point...now it is much larger and Putin is not happy about it and is doing something about it Ukraine as the last buffer zone.

Why would Putin be worried about NATO? 

[BobBKK]

1 minute ago, Ben Zioner said:

Why would Putin be worried about NATO? 

 Why would USA be worried about nukes in Cuba? 

[Ben Zioner]

1 minute ago, BobBKK said:

 Why would USA be worried about nukes in Cuba? 

Because the USA was at [Cold] war with Russia.

 

Keep asking me easy [for a Boomer] to answer questions.

[Bkk Brian]

4 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

So, are we never to trust treaties, promises, and agreements? Your suggestion is chaos, lying, and betrayal everywhere—a world based on deceit and subterfuge.

This is what humanity has come to?  I hate to say it, but the USA is behind all this evil because it has a saviour complex - it thinks everywhere should be like America the Beautiful. Instead of cooperation we have domination.

Taking one document out of context leaves you open to misinformation. It really needs to be read with all the other documents that were released rather than out of context.

 

NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

[Hummin]

2 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Why would Putin be worried about NATO? 

It is the treaty and economic duties that comes with it, as well what you can buy and sell to who. 

 

Nato is not just a defensive treaty, it is an aggressive economic treaty.

 

Nt so different than Trump says clear and loud, America first 🙂

 

Nothing New, this is a world game fighting for the available resources and markeds. 

 

can't believe some think different.

 

Putin need economic growth, same as every other  country does, and when constantly cut off short, what do you expect? 

 

Always been like that, and nothing will change in future. 

[johng]

6 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Why would Putin be worried about NATO? 

Why would NATO be worried about Putin ?

[BobBKK]

1 minute ago, Ben Zioner said:

Because the USA was at [Cold] war with Russia.

 

Keep asking me easy [for a Boomer] to answer questions.

 Nukes in Mexico, then? Or Hawaii?  America would bo NUTZ in Russia ever did that - you see the point? 

[jas007]

51 minutes ago, billd766 said:

So if a politician said something 34 years ago, it is still sacrosanct today and can NEVER be changed.

 

I suppose that would be correct IF the world was exactly the same as it was 34 years ago, but it isn't.

 

34 years ago Russia was in a mess, breaking up and the East European states and their peoples were choosing to side with Russia or go to the West.

 

Russia had not annexed any part of the Ukraine and the Ukraine still had Russian nuclear missiles on their soil.

 

NATO was much smaller then.

 

Poland was not even a member of NATO.

 

East Germany was being reunited with West Germany, the Berlin Wall had been demolished and the Iron Curtain between the East and the West was being dismantled.

 

Putin was not president of Russia.

 

Yet you believe that what one person said 34 years ago is current today in a completely different world to then.

 

 

To be sure, the world changes over time. It always does. And yet that’s what was promised. That’s one of the reasons why Germany was allowed to reunite and one of the reasons the situation in the rest of Eastern Europe developed the way it did. No NATO expansion.  
 

Russia has been patient.  But at this point, I’m afraid they feel enough is enough.  
 

Russia does not want NATO on its border. They perceive that as a security threat.  Putin has been saying that for years.  It’s really no different than if Russia assembled military forces directly on a U.S. border. Perhaps in Mexico.  The U.S. would not stand for that.  Not for a second.  And yet when NATO wants to surround Russia, that’s OK?  The reality is that Russia will not accept that.  And unless and until the Neocons accept that simple fact and drop the little game they are playing, the world is headed for big trouble.

[BobBKK]

3 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Taking one document out of context leaves you open to misinformation. It really needs to be read with all the other documents that were released rather than out of context.

 

NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

 "the West German chancellor understood a key Soviet bottom line, and assured Gorbachev on February 10, 1990: “We believe that NATO should not expand the sphere of its activity.” (See Document 9) "

[Hummin]

9 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

So, are we never to trust treaties, promises, and agreements? Your suggestion is chaos, lying, and betrayal everywhere—a world based on deceit and subterfuge.

This is what humanity has come to?  I hate to say it, but the USA is behind all this evil because it has a saviour complex - it thinks everywhere should be like America the Beautiful. Instead of cooperation we have domination.

Easy to blaim Usa for everything, it is just happen to.be Usa is on the top for now, and we should not wish for anything else if you are a western. The alternatives is not any better. 

 

Understand why things escalates is important, and try to prevent for further damages would be wise, but still our wealth still counts on Usa and our allies to continue 

[Ben Zioner]

6 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 Nukes in Mexico, then? Or Hawaii?  America would bo NUTZ in Russia ever did that - you see the point? 

Did you fornicate last night?

 

Not, it seems, you are incoherent.

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, BobBKK said:

 "the West German chancellor understood a key Soviet bottom line, and assured Gorbachev on February 10, 1990: “We believe that NATO should not expand the sphere of its activity.” (See Document 9) "

You didn't have time to read all that and snipped the best quote you could find out of numerous docs. Futile, we could go back and forth, I've not read it all myself yet but could can immediately get to other perspectives such as:

 

"As Kohl said to Gorbachev in Moscow on July 15, 1990, as they worked out the final deal on German unification: “We know what awaits NATO in the future, and I think you are now in the know as well,” referring to the NATO London Declaration. (See Document 23)

In his phone call to Gorbachev on July 17, Bush meant to reinforce the success of the Kohl-Gorbachev talks and the message of the London Declaration. Bush explained: “So what we tried to do was to take account of your concerns expressed to me and others, and we did it in the following ways: by our joint declaration on non-aggression; in our invitation to you to come to NATO"

[Will B Good]

Load of rubbish talked here...

 

NATO a defence organisation to try and ensure peace

 

Putin an aggressive war monger looking to leave his mark on history by attacking a sovereign nation

 

Were the nations who joined NATO forced to do so? NO

 

Did Ukraine want to be invaded by Putin's forces? NO

Edited June 24 by Will B Good

[BobBKK]

13 minutes ago, Will B Good said:

Load of rubbish talked here...

 

NATO a defence organisation to try and ensure peace

 

Putin an aggressive war monger looking to leave his mark on history by attacking a sovereign nation

 

Were the nations who joined NATO forced to do so? NO

 

Did Ukraine want to be invaded by Putin's forces? NO

Did Iraq want to be invaded?  NO
Did Vietnam want to be invaded? NO
Did Syria want to be bombed?  NO
Did Kosovo enjoy the NATO bombing? NO

and on and on and on
 

Is China a sovereign nation? YES
Is Taiwan a sovereign nation?  NO

By your logic, China has every right to invade NOW!
 

Edited June 24 by BobBKK

[BobBKK]

16 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

You didn't have time to read all that and snipped the best quote you could find out of numerous docs. Futile, we could go back and forth, I've not read it all myself yet but could can immediately get to other perspectives such as:

 

"As Kohl said to Gorbachev in Moscow on July 15, 1990, as they worked out the final deal on German unification: “We know what awaits NATO in the future, and I think you are now in the know as well,” referring to the NATO London Declaration. (See Document 23)

In his phone call to Gorbachev on July 17, Bush meant to reinforce the success of the Kohl-Gorbachev talks and the message of the London Declaration. Bush explained: “So what we tried to do was to take account of your concerns expressed to me and others, and we did it in the following ways: by our joint declaration on non-aggression; in our invitation to you to come to NATO"

 "Bush explained"  lol

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

Did Iraq want to be invaded?  NO
Did Vietnam want to be invaded? NO
Did Syria want to be bombed?  NO
Did Kosovo enjoy the NATO bombing? NO

and on and on and on
 

Is China a sovereign nation? YES
Is Taiwan a sovereign nation?  NO

By your logic, China has every right to invade NOW!
 

Oh don't be shy, Putin and Russia has their fair share in recent history

 

Russia’s wars for the last 30 years and their consequences

https://www.ukrainer.net/russian-wars/

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, BobBKK said:

 "Bush explained"  lol

Yes, I can probably find a few quotes of Gorbachev explaining a few things if that would amuse you also

[Will B Good]

5 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

By your logic, China has every right to invade NOW!

?

[Will B Good]

6 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

Did Iraq want to be invaded?  NO
Did Vietnam want to be invaded? NO
Did Syria want to be bombed?  NO

 

Wow......NATO did all that?....I did not know.

[BobBKK]

4 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Oh don't be shy, Putin and Russia has their fair share in recent history

 

Russia’s wars for the last 30 years and their consequences

https://www.ukrainer.net/russian-wars/

 I hate all wars. The point is the one time Russia did what USA is doing here was Cuba - and America freaked out. Now Russia freaks out because their neighbour is the same vassal as Cuba to Russia was, and the West screams a hissy fit without seeing the apparent hypocrisy.

[BobBKK]

2 minutes ago, Will B Good said:

Wow......NATO did all that?....I did not know.

  USA/NATO interchangeable "a rose by any other name" 

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, BobBKK said:

 I hate all wars. The point is the one time Russia did what USA is doing here was Cuba - and America freaked out. Now Russia freaks out because their neighbour is the same vassal as Cuba to Russia was, and the West screams a hissy fit without seeing the apparent hypocrisy.

You may hate all wars but you like to talk about US ones and deliberately ignore those started by Russia

[BobBKK]

4 minutes ago, Will B Good said:

?

 China is a sovereign state - Taiwan is not.

This is the core of your argument - can't you see the double talk?