Secretary Baker in 1990 No extension of NATO "one inch to the east" what could go wrong?

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1 minute ago, BobBKK said:

 "a violation of the spirit of the assurances given Moscow in 1990" case closed even though you and the article very carefully do not mention Gorbachov was in his 80s when he gave that interview and under some manipulation by the West. He was broke and  even made an advert for Pizza Hut. He ran for President in 1996 and got 0.5% of the vote. 

He commented "On 24 December 2021, Gorbachev said that the United States "grew arrogant and self-confident" after the collapse of the Soviet Union, resulting in "a new empire. Hence the idea of NATO expansion" - he was right there!

It's not just about Gorbachev. As the second article pointed out, there was nothing in the documentation of that time that pointed to any kind of promise not to expand NATO. The allegations that such promises were made were offered years later. 

Such claims as "a violation of the spirit of the assurances given Moscow in 1990" are impossible to prove or disprove given that they are based on emotion.

[MangoKorat]

2 hours ago, transam said:

I find it strange you do not accept that your chum Putin is a murdering dictator, an invader of a neighbour for land grab, but you Reds are all the same, though like the comfort of the West, oh, and Thailand............😉 

Quite, putting political differences aside - anyone supporting Putin is supporting the deaths of thousands, probably hundreds of thousands, of Ukrainian and Russian soldiers and civillians!

 

That's what this comes down to - the leaders, politicians and the military can say what they like, make any excuses they so wish. At the end of the day its soldiers and civillians that pay with their lives - not the leaders.  In this case, pay for what? Whether you accept Putin's excuses or not, the fact is that Ukraine showed no aggression. The only ongoing conflict at the time was within Ukraine's borders and that was stirred up by Russia in the first place.

 

Those of you who support Putin must always remember that you are supporting death. I doubt any of you would have the same feelings if that death was closer to home.

[BobBKK]

5 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

Quite, putting political differences aside - anyone supporting Putin is supporting the deaths of thousands, probably hundreds of thousands, of Ukrainian and Russian soldiers and civillians!

 

That's what this comes down to - the leaders, politicians and the military can say what they like, make any excuses they so wish. At the end of the day its soldiers and civillians that pay with their lives - not the leaders.  In this case, pay for what? Whether you accept Putin's excuses or not, the fact is that Ukraine showed no aggression. The only ongoing conflict at the time was within Ukraine's borders and that was stirred up by Russia in the first place.

 

Those of you who support Putin must always remember that you are supporting death. I doubt any of you would have the same feelings if that death was closer to home.

 

What a lesson in nonsense. I'll rephrase it for you:

"Those of you who support the lies and misinformation must always remember that you are supporting death. I doubt any of you would have the same feelings if that death was closer to home"

[SpaceKadet]

2 hours ago, BobBKK said:

 If you cannot understand the example of a 'sovereign nation' and its context, then you are not used to debates, and I am wasting my time.

Maybe you should educate yourself on the definition of "sovereign state".

According to Wikipedia:

 

"A sovereign state is a state that has the highest authority over a territory.

International law defines sovereign states as having a permanent population, defined territory, a government not under another, and the capacity to interact with other states." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_state

 

Unless, of course, if you're Chinese and subscribe to CCP propaganda.

[MangoKorat]

6 hours ago, BobBKK said:

It may have escaped your attention but 1990 was 34 years ago and the world was a different place. Russia was it seemed, under Gorbachev, ready to 'come in from the cold' and move towards fully participating in peaceful relations with the rest of the world. The Soviet Union fell officially in 1991 and for a few years it seemed like Russia would become a truly democratic country, fully participating in world affairs.

 

However, there were fortunes to be made from the break up of the USSR and that would never be allowed to happen in a truly democratic society. 'Perestroika' and 'Glasnost' began under Grobachev and continued under Yeltsin who actually wanted it to go further. Yeltsin initially made Putin Prime Minister in 1999 and so began Russia's pathway to the authoritarian dictatorship, masquerading as a democracy, that it is today. The short lived 'good relations' with 'The West' was over.

 

Interestingly, Yelstin is said to have confided in those closest to him that he made a big mistake in making Putin Prime Minister - possibly the understatement of the millenium!

 

Whatever, you cannot compare the relationship between 'The West' & NATO and Russia in 1994 with what exists today.

Edited June 24 by MangoKorat

[transam]

23 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 

What a lesson in nonsense. I'll rephrase it for you:

"Those of you who support the lies and misinformation must always remember that you are supporting death. I doubt any of you would have the same feelings if that death was closer to home"

You're a Red supporter, end of story, can't think outside your Red bubble........

[MangoKorat]

26 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 

What a lesson in nonsense. I'll rephrase it for you:

"Those of you who support the lies and misinformation must always remember that you are supporting death. I doubt any of you would have the same feelings if that death was closer to home"

Oh, so thousands of people have not died and Russia didn't invade Ukriane, its all 'misinformation?  Thanks for setting me straight, I'll sleep easier tonight knowing there is no war going on in Ukraine.

 

Quite frankly, you should be ashamed of yourself!

[Will B Good]

NATO hasn't 'expanded'!

 

Countries fearful of an out of control, totally corrupt dictator, prepared to slaughter thousands of his own citizens has persuaded them to join NATO for their own security.

[BobBKK]

17 hours ago, Will B Good said:

NATO hasn't 'expanded'!

 

Countries fearful of an out of control, totally corrupt dictator, prepared to slaughter thousands of his own citizens has persuaded them to join NATO for their own security.

 Seriously? LOL

[Will B Good]

6 hours ago, BobBKK said:

 Seriously? LOL

So which countries were forced against their will to join NATO?

[BobBKK]

45 minutes ago, Will B Good said:

So which countries were forced against their will to join NATO?

 This is so naive and embarrassing that it's just not worth commenting on - just lamenting.

[rice555]

On 6/24/2024 at 2:06 PM, BobBKK said:

I think the evidence is clear. Ukraine was allowed to break away on condition of NO NATO.

A little-known fact for you - Zelensky was elected on a "Peace in Donbas ticket' after overthrowing the democratically elected president guided by Nuland and the CIA - cookies all around! Zelensky then went on to bomb Donbas, increasing the daily shelling from 5,000 to 13,000 from 2014 to 2022. It's an inconvenient truth.

You forgot that Aelensky(remember he banned "Z's to be used),

had to learn to speak Ukrainian as he was brought up as a Native Russian speaker. 

I saw a VDO on 4-chan of the green shirt man playing the piano in

his club act, you might call him a gifted slonger.