Zelensky Challenges Trump on War Plans, Decries Weapons Delays

[tgw]

30 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Ukraine is also not part of NATO. And as usual with most of those who cheer on the war, you did not answer the basic question- do you think NATO should intervene, at the cost of NATO members' soldiers lives?

 

I haven't been asked the question. But since you asked, here's my answer :

Regarding NATO intervention, from the information I have, I would say two things :
- that NATO should enter the war only when NATO's security is directly threatened. the reason is not to spare NATO soldier's lives, but to avoid multiplying the scale of the conflict, because suddenly there would be armed clashes in many parts of the world
- that helping Ukraine to defend itself against Putin is important for world peace. There are other conflicts that will be prevented or lessened by Putin's defeat in Ukraine (Georgia, Azerbaidjan/Armenia, possibility of conflict in Central Asia, Taiwan). In most of these conflicts, Putin's imperialist goals are also the cause

 

 

Edited July 5 by tgw

[tgw]

1 hour ago, BobBKK said:

That's absurd. What you are saying is the USA is the world's policeman. Taiwan is part of China, just like HK. If Ukraine had kept its neutrality, this would never have happened - and it is the USA's fault starting in 2014.

 

Nonsense statements.

 

1. I said almost the opposite of USA being the world's policeman. I said NATO isn't Ukraine's boss. BUT - helping Ukraine is in the USA's interest.
2. Second, the Chinese government in Taipei has older roots than the communist government, one could view communist China as being ruled by rebels. I see no reason to deny the status of sovereign country to Taiwan
3. Ukraine kept it's neutrality, but it was incessantly attacked by Russia since Putin took over the affairs in the Kremlin. Read the history of events, starting before the Orange Revolution

 

 

Edited July 5 by tgw

[BobBKK]

2 minutes ago, tgw said:

 

Nonsense statements.

 

I'll comment on the second one :

Ukraine kept it's neutrality, but it was incessantly attacked by Russia since Putin took over the affairs in the Kremlin. Read the history of events, starting before the Orange Revolution.

I was there before and after the Orange Revolution. That aside, the CIA overthrew Viktor Yanukovych, and Nuland handed out cookies.

[nobodysfriend]

Peace in Ukraine ?

Putin is in a stronger position for negotiations by now .

Let him keep what he took already , or arm Ukraine with long range weapons without posing restrictions on their use .

In a ' peace deal ' Putin will be the winner .

But better put an end to suffering instead of suffering until the end ?

But , even if a peace deal is concluded , and Trump wins the elections and pulls the US out of Nato , Putin might " jump on this occasion "  and annex more parts of Ukraine or neighboring countries , as the remaining NATO members are not able to defend themselves against Russia without the help of the US .

Putin wants to make Russia great again , he wants to go down in history as the one who reunified the USSR ...

 

[ChicagoExpat]

1 hour ago, BobBKK said:

That's absurd. What you are saying is the USA is the world's policeman. Taiwan is part of China, just like HK. If Ukraine had kept its neutrality, this would never have happened - and it is the USA's fault starting in 2014.

There you go Bob!  Arguing the Chinese and Russian sides.  Un-frickin'-believable.  The war is Ukraine's fault!  And the the USA started it!  Just sad.

[BobBKK]

1 minute ago, ChicagoExpat said:

There you go Bob!  Arguing the Chinese and Russian sides.  Un-frickin'-believable.  The war is Ukraine's fault!  And the the USA started it!  Just sad.

 
Please don't misunderstand or deliberately misinterpret what I said. It was NOT the Ukrainian people's fault - it was the good 'Ole USA's fault. I think the outcome will be:

Ukraine is neutral, with no NATO but some sort of security deal; Russia keeps Crimea, and Donbas becomes a 'special territory' with some autonomy, OR Russia keeps it. Instead of just trolling, what do YOU think the outcome will be?

[nobodysfriend]

5 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

what do YOU think the outcome will be?

 

The outcome of the war in Ukraine depends very much on the outcome of the presidential elections in the US .

[ChicagoExpat]

3 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 Please don't misunderstand or deliberately misinterpret what I said. It was NOT the Ukrainian people's fault - it was the good 'Ole USA's fault. I think the outcome will be:

Ukraine is neutral, with no NATO but some sort of security deal; Russia keeps Crimea, and Donbas becomes a 'special territory' with some autonomy, OR Russia keeps it. Instead of just trolling, what do YOU think the outcome will be?

There you go again, Bob -- characterizing disagreement as "trolling", "bullying", "stalking", etc.  Stop crying and engage.

 

That's for Ukraine to decide if they want to reward Russia in preparation for the next invasion, Bob.  It may be Russia wins some of part of what it came for; if it does, it will just do it again and again and again.  I think Ukraine will survive this if its friends don't abandon it.  Russia has made almost no progress in two+ years of invasion and brutal attacks on civilian targets; considering the power differential, that's a shocking outcome.

 

The benefit of dictatorships like Russia is they can go all in, regardless of anything but the whims of the dictator; the weakness of democracies is they are easily distracted.  Russia has done a great job of building up support for it on the far right -- this thread is great evidence of that.

[ChicagoExpat]

6 minutes ago, nobodysfriend said:

The outcome of the war in Ukraine depends very much on the outcome of the presidential elections in the US .

Agree.  There's little doubt in my mind Trump will dump Ukraine/support Russia, and I have little faith in Europeans' ability to commit to anything hard-power related.

[animalmagic]

1 hour ago, BobBKK said:

That's absurd. What you are saying is the USA is the world's policeman. Taiwan is part of China, just like HK. If Ukraine had kept its neutrality, this would never have happened - and it is the USA's fault starting in 2014.

Taiwan is in no way similar to HK.  The first is an independent state that did not fall to the Communist Revolution but became a successful and effective democracy.  HK is geographically more a part of China but only the New Territories was leased to the British for 99 years.

But with your logic I suppose that you are ok with Tibet being claimed as a 'historical' province of China, that the LAC between China and India should be given to the Chinese? Or perhaps that China is right to claim pretty much all of the South China Sea because they drew some lines on a map even though International Courts have decreed otherwise as those areas are the territorial waters of Vietnam, Malaysia, Brunei and the Philippines?

[Eric Loh]

1 hour ago, john donson said:

yeah send stop sending weapons and money to the ukrainian dictator, elections cancelled, what you call that?   before you post, you know what happened in 2014 in ukraine ?

People revolution in 2014 and kicked out traitor President Yanulovych who choose closer ties with Russia and reneged political association and trade agreements with EU. The people kicked out the corrupted government and abuse of power. 

 

Zalensky was an elected President and the elections were recognized as free and fair by the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe. Ukrainian law does not allow presidential elections to be held during martial law which was enacted due to Russia invasion. 

 

The majority Americans and Congress support sending weapons and military aid to Ukraine. 

[billd766]

3 hours ago, thaipo7 said:

Right Tug - you are always right.  Almost as often as Biden.

And far more often that you are.

[wwest5829]

7 hours ago, impulse said:

 

70 years ago when Europe was on its knees, it made sense for the USA to carry NATO and subsidize the cost.  Today, the Euros are just laughing while we subsidize their defense, 5000 miles away from our borders.  While they use their money for their own socialist needs.  It doesn't hurt my feelings at all that Trump demands the Euros pay their fair share.  They'll pony up before they let NATO fold. 

 

That's what you call the art of the deal.

And then the money saved from defense spending will be passed on through services to the working middle class. You know, like it was with the ending of the Cold War.

[tgw]

3 hours ago, BobBKK said:

I was there before and after the Orange Revolution.

 

Same.

The people supporting Yanukovich were of Russo-thuggish persuasion and were in some form paid or blackmailed to do so. It's these people who most imposed mafia-like structures and corruption, pushing everyone to have a "krisha". Everyone was forced to go with the flow at the time.

[BobBKK]

17 minutes ago, tgw said:

 

Same.

The people supporting Yanukovich were of Russo-thuggish persuasion and were in some form paid or blackmailed to do so. It's these people who most imposed mafia-like structures and corruption, pushing everyone to have a "krisha". Everyone was forced to go with the flow at the time.

 Some were, it is true, but not all. I wouldn't say I liked Yanukovich, but I liked US involvement less. Let Ukraine sort its destiny out - without USA or Russia.

[tgw]

22 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 Some were, it is true, but not all. I wouldn't say I liked Yanukovich, but I liked US involvement less. Let Ukraine sort its destiny out - without USA or Russia.

 

Ukrainian destiny without Russia's involvement is exactly the point !

 

And also the reason why Putin in ready to kill millions.

 

Edited July 5 by tgw

[frank83628]

8 hours ago, BobBKK said:

I wish Trump would drop the hyperbole but we need him to try and stop the carnage: peace and Russian withdrawal (not inc Crimea) + no NATO.

nato = USA in Europe, they make the msm watching sheep..(insert AN member) think its for your benefit, but in reality it's so the US can drag everyone into their forever wars!

[frank83628]

8 hours ago, Hakuna Matata said:

 

falls on deaf ears for the brainwashed shills here championing the war from the safety of thier Issan village or pattaya bar stool, at least the politicians are getting back handers for thier support, jingting, tug, eric loc and losbozo do it all for free

[frank83628]

8 hours ago, tgw said:

 

Your logic is insulting.

NATO is not Ukraine's boss.

Ukraine wants to defend itself, it needs help.

 

If China attacked Taiwan and if Taiwan didn't want to submit to China you would also try to convince them to surrender, right ?

 

You have no regards for independence and freedom.

Taiwan, IS China....

 

no regards for Independence and freedom.... hahaha, do  you?

[frank83628]

8 hours ago, animalmagic said:

Was that before or after Russia invaded?

 do you think the war started feb 22, or were you following Ukraine news prior to that?

[frank83628]

8 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Ain't that the truth. Zelensky is a dead man walking, IMO ( not literally ), and is no doubt in my mind preparing his getaway. One presumes he's not doing a Thieu, and trying to escape with a few tons of gold.

 

If he hangs around too long he may be experiencing a Mussolini exit from the outraged populace.

 Azof are going to bump him off the second he deviates from the script...(that same Azof that apparently  doest exist since feb 2022)

[frank83628]

8 hours ago, Paul Henry said:

Putin is a cancer and cancer spreads, Ukraine today,then Poland and on it will go. Only one cure cut it out and radiate whats left. 

you spelt USA wrong

[frank83628]

8 hours ago, candide said:

Of course! Trump's plan is the same as Putin's plan! 😆

you mean peace..... what a nightmare scenario!

 

did you sign up for front line, defending Ukraine yet? nah, didnt think so!!

[frank83628]

7 hours ago, john donson said:

yeah send stop sending weapons and money to the ukrainian dictator, elections cancelled, what you call that?   before you post, you know what happened in 2014 in ukraine ?

they never heard of the elections cancelled, tv stations closed down, reporters silenced.... Putin bad...but we need to uphold democracy!!

[frank83628]

7 hours ago, Lacessit said:

It's tragic when people who never finished high school, and have no knowledge of the history of Ukraine and Russia, can post complete codswallop on social media.

yes, but here you are!

[frank83628]

7 hours ago, Lacessit said:

You think Putin is going to give up Eastern Ukraine in any peace deal?

 

What are you smoking, I want some.

how will you know if you don't got to the negotiating table? i'm guessing you're happy to send yourself, your kids and other family members to fight  for Ukraine if needed..you know, seeing as you feel so strongly...

[ChaiyaTH]

17 hours ago, Tug said:

Trump will sell out nato faster than you can say Diet Coke unfortunately Trump seems to be a greater asset to the enemy than the United States or any of the democracies we need to keep hammering that reality!!

Ehh biden already sold us out, by involving us in this, and making every European 200 dollars net a month poorer. Ignorant freaking american.

[frank83628]

6 hours ago, Eric Loh said:

People revolution in 2014 and kicked out traitor President Yanulovych who choose closer ties with Russia and reneged political association and trade agreements with EU. The people kicked out the corrupted government and abuse of power. 

 

Zalensky was an elected President and the elections were recognized as free and fair by the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe. Ukrainian law does not allow presidential elections to be held during martial law which was enacted due to Russia invasion. 

 

The majority Americans and Congress support sending weapons and military aid to Ukraine. 

*CIA backed coup, ousted a democratically elected government.... just was pro Russia, not Pro USA... 

[frank83628]

3 hours ago, tgw said:

 

Ukrainian destiny without Russia's involvement is exactly the point !

 

And also the reason why Putin in ready to kill millions.

 

how about without US involvement 

[Yagoda]

Zelensky should shut up. Far as I am concerned let the Russians and Ukrainians kill each other