half-Thai child moving to Thailand with Thai mom

[JimmyB81]

Details:

1. I am UK/EU citizen and had a child recently with Thai (now ex) Girlfriend in UK.

2. We were not married but she has UK residence (IRL). 

3. I am named as Father on the Childs birth certificate (UK). 

4. Baby has a UK Passport and my ex is planning to get her a Thai passport soon.

5. Currently, my ex is happy to stay in the UK, but wants to move to Thailand in the future with our child (3-5 years time).

6. Before we separated, we (or rather I) had built a house in Thailand for us to live in the future, with our chld(ren).

7. Things are relatively amicable between us currently. My ex has promised to give the house and land that I paid for to my daughter (when she turns 18). 

 

We are about to start the process for custody/access arrangements for our child, for here in the UK, and for the future if/when they move to Thailand.

This is at my request. My ex wants to keep things informal. I have been advised to get a formal arrangement by a men's support group and my therapist, who both have told me that I have been a victim of emotional abuse from my ex and that she cannot be trusted.

I want to keep things amicable with her (for the child's sake), to avoid the courts (for our pockets sake) and to reach agreement on shared custody with her, either by discussion or mediation. 

I am concerned that I will loose the parental rights that I have here once she moves to Thailand, so as part of our agreement, I want to make sure all the necessary steps are taken now, or at least formally noted in our agreement, so there is an obligation on her to do what is necessary in Thailand to safeguard my parental right there.

 

What I am looking for advice on is how to:

 a) legitimize my status as childs father in Thailand ( i can do this by going there with her next time she visits her family), but I'm not sure exactly how and if the child needs to be over a certain age?

 b) ensure I am allowed shared custody of the child in Thailand (this is an extra step or it becomes automatic with the legitimization?)

c) have the ability to take my child outside of Thailand on her summer holidays (subject to prior access agreement with her mom)

d) ensure that my ex does put her (my) house and land into our child's name at the appropriate age. I am assuming a pre-agreement of some sort? 

e) any other steps I should be taking given the situation I'm in?

 

Probably I will need to get advice from a Thai family lawyer in the future before she moves there, but as I said , I want to at least include these requirements for me having my custody rights in Thailand as 'obligations' on my ex to do in future, as part of our imminent UK Custody agreement.

 

Any tips or advice would be very much appreciated.

Thanks

 

 

Edited July 15 by JimmyB81

[Ben Zioner]

9 minutes ago, JimmyB81 said:

My ex has promised to give the house and land that I paid for to my daughter (when she turns 18). 

Honestly, don't expect this to happen if she gets other children with some Thai leech.

[stupidfarang]

You need to talk with a Thai lawyer, in Thailand if you are not married to the mother then you have no legal rights at all.

I strongly suggest that you sort everything legally before your child goes to Thailand, I would not let the mother take the child on a "holiday" to Thailand as once there you have no hope of sortinging anything.

If you are serious about the childs future you may wish to think about keeping the child in the UK as the school system is better and a better future.

 

Focus on what is best for the child, do not argue, go for custody in the UK.

 

To be honest I would not trust the mother at all if you already have been abusede, plus she knows that she has to keep everything calm until she gets to Thailand then she is in the stronger position of doing nothing and not letting you see your daughter.

 

[BritManToo]

26 minutes ago, JimmyB81 said:

. Things are relatively amicable between us currently. My ex has promised to give the house and land that I paid for to my daughter (when she turns 18). 

Why not give it to her now?

[gargamon]

I'm sure glad I visited the vet and had myself fixed before I moved to SE Asia.

[MangoKorat]

This may or may not be of use to you and of course, the law could have changed but...........

Many years ago my ex (UK woman) wanted to move to the USA with her boyfriend, taking our son with her.  I knew that if she did, I would probably never see my son again so I sought legal advice.  I was told that my ex wife couldn't take my son to live in any other country without my agreement. I told her I wouldn't agree to it and the upshot was that her boyfriend emigrated without her.

 

Quite how I could have stopped her simply getting on to a plane and leaving without my knowledge - I know not but to actually emigrate, she needed my agreement.  My guess would be that in such a case, if she had taken him, she would have been ordered to return him - but that's USA/UK.  In Thai law, custody defaults to the mother providing she is of good character.  I wouldn't hold my breath in thinking that a Thai court would order your ex to return your child is she took him/her.  As far as they're concerned, the child is Thai.

 

You are right to do this all formally - relationships change. And you're right to contact a Thai lawyer and seek advice - the Thai family courts are actually pretty good if you're reasonable.

 

However, on your property issue, there is no way you can ensure your ex puts the house in your child's name in the future.  However, what you can do, providing the local land office is one that will accept a foreign mortgage is take place a legal charge on the property in the form of a mortgage registered on the title.  You will need to get the registered owner's (your ex?) agreement to do that.

 

On the basis that she agrees - no money changes hands but a charge is registered on the title as if you had given your ex a loan - secured on the house.  She cannot then sell it unless she clears the mortgage which of course you'll remove when she transfers it to your child. The first step is to get a Thai lawyer to ask your land office if they accept foreign mortgages - some do, some don't.

 

Getting your ex to agree to a mortgage could be the most difficult part but if she won't - that may indicate that she has no intention of transfering the house to your child.

[IvorBiggun2]

59 minutes ago, gargamon said:

I'm sure glad I visited the vet and had myself fixed before I moved to SE Asia.

I did too but had iIVF done in BKK and now have 3 teenage children.

Edited July 16 by IvorBiggun2

[fredwiggy]

Stupidfarang's advice is spot on. You've said you can't trust here but also said she promised to give the house to your child. It would be much better having the child, especially if it's a daughter, to grow up in the UK. This country looks at women as inferior, and that's how a daughter will be treated by the boys here. A smart judge in the UK will already know what's in store for the child in Thailand. A daughter really needs a father more than a mother if there's a decision to be made. She will learn from him how a woman is supposed to be treated, if you're a good man that way. He can protect here a lot better than her mom could. Also a boy cannot learn to be a man from a mother unless there's a good male role model around, and that's not something you'll easily find here. Many men don't want the job of being a step parent, and a girls own father is the best choice. Fight for the child, give her the Thai house. She can have visitation in the UK. The child can decide what she wants to do later in life, but an education in the UK is miles above whet they would get here.

[BritManToo]

45 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

Getting your ex to agree to a mortgage could be the most difficult part but if she won't - that may indicate that she has no intention of transfering the house to your child.

And I'll repeat ........

Why not put the house in the child's name now.

[JeffersLos]

3 hours ago, JimmyB81 said:

d) ensure that my ex does put her (my) house and land into our child's name at the appropriate age. I am assuming a pre-agreement of some sort? 

 

There is no problem with the Thai child owning the house. It can be transferred to them at any age. 

 

An adult will need to be signed as the legal guardian of the land until the child is 20. You can be the legal guardian. 

[JimmyB81]

6 hours ago, BritManToo said:

And I'll repeat ........

Why not put the house in the child's name now.

I honestly did not know she could do that. My ex said she will do it when our daughter is 18, so assumed it was a requirement there. Good to know she can do now

[BritManToo]

3 minutes ago, JimmyB81 said:

I honestly did not know she could do that. My ex said she will do it when our daughter is 18, so assumed it was a requirement there. Good to know she can do now

She knows that too, she was decieving you, it's a common strategy to delay the foreigner without actually saying no.

 

You can't trust anything she says!

Edited July 16 by BritManToo

[gargamon]

Whose name is the property in question currently owned by? It may be too late already to have any say in who will own the property when the child turns 18.

[stupidfarang]

2 hours ago, JimmyB81 said:

I honestly did not know she could do that. My ex said she will do it when our daughter is 18, so assumed it was a requirement there. Good to know she can do now

IMO I would focus on the childs wellbeing which IMO would be better served in the UK. Unless married you have no legal standing with the child, the courts in Thailand will not recognise you. Fighting over a house to be placed in your childs name is peanuts compared to the welfare of your daughter during this sepration process which will all be nice and calm until the mother and daughter are back in Thailand..

 

I live in Thailand and have a daughter (4 year old) and I assure you the education system is not great here and a university degree is not worth much outside of Thailand. I am already planning on sending my daughter to a university back in the UK when the time comes. Iam not in your position (partner and I are togeather) but know about the legal pitfalls here in Thailand and if and when you ever get togeather with another women, then look out as the ex will not be happy.

[JimmyB81]

Thanks all for the helpful advise so far.

 

To clear something up - my ex does consider herself a morally 'good person' and for the most part she is. The abuse I spoke about was very very subtle, and I didn't even notice until I reached out to someone. She herself had a very abusive mother and that has leaked out into her relationships, as tends to happen. 

 

The thing I don't trust about her is her word. Many times things were said that she later denied ever saying and pivoted to something else to suit her circumstances at the time. But I do believe she would honour any agreement we made, even if it was not 100% watertight in Thailand. 

 

Before she became pregnant, we had decided (or she had decided with my approval) that our child(ren) would grow up in her village in Thailand. So I feel I should keep my word on this. 

But I do understand the argument for me doing what is best for the child and not letting her take her there to live. That is something I am also considering. I do want to do what is best for my daughter. I have a few years until it happens anyway. For now, I won't be giving my approval, but I just wanted to put any safeguards/measures in place that are needed to ensure I am recognized as legitimate father there if/when she moves. I thought I could still be recognized as the legal father even outside marriage, as long as the mother agreed to it?

 

About the house - it's not that big a deal as deciding where my daughter grows up, as stupidfarang pointed out. It's more of a 'nice to have' from my pov, because I did shell out mostly all my savings to build it and would like to be able to ensure it goes to my daughter, and not my ex's other kids (now adults) or a new spouse. 

 

 

[JimmyB81]

3 hours ago, gargamon said:

Whose name is the property in question currently owned by? It may be too late already to have any say in who will own the property when the child turns 18.

A bit of a complicated one - the house and land is currently in my ex's Father's name. My ex still hadn't finalised her divorce from a previous marriage last year, so couldn't put in her name. But she is planning to do that when she goes back to visit her family, probably later this year, as her divorce has gone through.

 

Looks like she can skip that step and put it straight in my daughters name!

[ElwoodP]

30 minutes ago, JimmyB81 said:

A bit of a complicated one - the house and land is currently in my ex's Father's name. My ex still hadn't finalised her divorce from a previous marriage last year, so couldn't put in her name. But she is planning to do that when she goes back to visit her family, probably later this year, as her divorce has gone through.

 

Looks like she can skip that step and put it straight in my daughters name!

Just to point out in Thailand a woman's husband is considered legally the father of any children, born up to 1 year after any divorce/separation.

 

So a Thai court will consider her daughter's father to be her husband, and not you.

[Bangel72]

If you are not married, might be worth first checking if you have parental rights in the UK.

 

In England that would likely have needed both parties to jointly register the birth otherwise it may need a formal agreement either with mother or court order.

 

In Scotland it's different, if you are on the birth certificate you have parental rights. I'm flying to Scotland soon, it was a bit grey on parental rights, if I flew into London could have been a no, but fly into Scotland and I'm okay, maybe its where the birth is registered??

 

I went with the mother and my son to amphur and it was a quick registration of my parental rights here in Thailand, note I had to wait until kid was old enough to confirm this and sign the papers himself, before this in Thailand I had zero rights or legal responsibility. No idea what would have happened had the mother died before I got the paperwork. I also got her to sign paperwork allowing me to take him out of country.

 

On the house, I was getting mixed messages on this, some people seem to have successfully transferred to their young children but when I looked at it, it was shake of head too young, wait till 16. I've sort of written off the house as a result, was bringing me more problems as was a route for her to ask for money for ahem upkeep.

 

Someone mentioned usufruct, basically you can live in house even if wife dies and it cant be sold sort of thing but again I am not sure I could have done that for kid rather than myself but might be useful, otherwise right it off in your mind, if she keeps her word and it goes to the kid then great, if not no point being upset about it later.

 

Village upbringing, pre-school seems fine but it's the schooling that for me sucked, seemed like the farmers were doubling as teachers in most cases and as close to border there was bullying and conflict between groups even the 7 year olds. That said he stayed with an aunt for a while near surin and that school was good with one great english speaking teacher.

 

When my son was with his mother he was always used as leverage for money, that was drunk, partied or gambled. All was good for first few years with us too, she had good job but it went pear shaped later. Not saying that will happen but worth having a backup plan.

 

 

 

 

[NativeBob]

Forget stupid house, do everything you can to keep daughter with you, otherwise your ex will "park" her in some remote village and her future will vanish. 

Oh, and education system even in Bangkok is abysmal. Even Singaporean Int. School (so many are proud of) is trashy. Friend's son went to Regents later to Assumption. Couldn't put 2 words together in English and can't speak thai. 

[JimmyB81]

12 minutes ago, ElwoodP said:

Just to point out in Thailand a woman's husband is considered legally the father of any children, born up to 1 year after any divorce/separation.

 

So a Thai court will consider her daughter's father to be her husband, and not you.

Sorry, I don't understand this, especially the last line. I am the father of my daughter and was never married to my ex. 

We had the baby via IVF in UK, and signed all disclaimers etc surrounding the fact my ex was still legally married & not divorced yet at that time

 

Are you are saying that in Thailand , they courts would consider her (now) ex husband to be my daughters father? My daughter was born within one year after her divorce from him. But the fact we did IVF and signed all forms should surely negate any laws in Thailand?

 

[JimmyB81]

7 minutes ago, NativeBob said:

Forget stupid house, do everything you can to keep daughter with you, otherwise your ex will "park" her in some remote village and her future will vanish. 

Oh, and education system even in Bangkok is abysmal. Even Singaporean Int. School (so many are proud of) is trashy. Friend's son went to Regents later to Assumption. Couldn't put 2 words together in English and can't speak Thai. 

So many replies about the poor education system in Thailand. Making me seriously reconsider letting her take her there. I do want to do what is best for my daughter, even if it means I means I need to go back on previous promises with my ex. 

She could still take her there on summer holidays to experience Thai culture and see her family, while also having the benefit of a better education in UK.

[Doctor Tom]

OP this story makes me so sad.  Do not let her bring the child here, please .  If the child is settled in the UK, leave her to live her life there. You will not have any rights here in LOS; however hard you try.  The child will not thank either of you if she is living and so called educated here in LOS. I know of what I say.  My Thai Brit daughter, 24 year old now,  is in the UK, fully educated there and happy to stay there.  Despite all we tried to do, and her mother and I are as one on this, we had horrendous problems with me being recognized her biological Father here. 

 

Do PM me and I will share the details of all we went through. Just don't let the child out of the UK until you have the full facts, if you ever do.  Be well prepared to get a restraining order to prevent the child leaving the UK.  Please do all you can to keep her there. Your relationship with the Mother is immaterial to the life and later wishes of the child. As an aside, our daughter dislikes Thailand and only comes here on sufferance. Let her make her own decisions when she is 18. By the way, a few million Baht will be needed for lawyers/court fees if you go down the route of trying to get recognition here. 

[Doctor Tom]

9 minutes ago, JimmyB81 said:

Are you are saying that in Thailand , they courts would consider her (now) ex husband to be my daughters father? My daughter was born within one year after her divorce from him. But the fact we did IVF and signed all forms should surely negate any laws in Thailand?

Oh dear my friend, you have no idea how it works here.  I can see how you will fail to get what you want and what the child needs, if she comes here and you use the Thai Court system. Just getting UK Court documentation into the Thai court system will not help.  Its Thai law that matters here, not foreign Court judgements. 

[Doctor Tom]

11 minutes ago, JimmyB81 said:

She could still take her there on summer holidays to experience Thai culture and see her family,

She could, but if she does, there must be a good chance she will never return.  Get a banning order. 

[JimmyB81]

21 minutes ago, Bangel72 said:

If you are not married, might be worth first checking if you have parental rights in the UK.

 

In England that would likely have needed both parties to jointly register the birth otherwise it may need a formal agreement either with mother or court order.

 

In Scotland it's different, if you are on the birth certificate you have parental rights. I'm flying to Scotland soon, it was a bit grey on parental rights, if I flew into London could have been a no, but fly into Scotland and I'm okay, maybe its where the birth is registered??

 

I went with the mother and my son to amphur and it was a quick registration of my parental rights here in Thailand, note I had to wait until kid was old enough to confirm this and sign the papers himself, before this in Thailand I had zero rights or legal responsibility. No idea what would have happened had the mother died before I got the paperwork. I also got her to sign paperwork allowing me to take him out of country.

 

On the house, I was getting mixed messages on this, some people seem to have successfully transferred to their young children but when I looked at it, it was shake of head too young, wait till 16. I've sort of written off the house as a result, was bringing me more problems as was a route for her to ask for money for ahem upkeep.

 

Someone mentioned usufruct, basically you can live in house even if wife dies and it cant be sold sort of thing but again I am not sure I could have done that for kid rather than myself but might be useful, otherwise right it off in your mind, if she keeps her word and it goes to the kid then great, if not no point being upset about it later.

 

Village upbringing, pre-school seems fine but it's the schooling that for me sucked, seemed like the farmers were doubling as teachers in most cases and as close to border there was bullying and conflict between groups even the 7 year olds. That said he stayed with an aunt for a while near surin and that school was good with one great english speaking teacher.

 

When my son was with his mother he was always used as leverage for money, that was drunk, partied or gambled. All was good for first few years with us too, she had good job but it went pear shaped later. Not saying that will happen but worth having a backup plan.

 

 

 

 

Sounds like your situation is quite similar to mine. So you were not married and had to get your sons signature there to legitimize your rights? It will be a good few years before I can do that.

 

I do have parental rights in UK. I got legal advice before she was born and was told the number one thing to do was make sure I was named as Father on the birth cert, so that box has been ticked, thankfully.

 

Thanks for sharing your side. 

Yes the primary schools in rural Thailand are a throwback. Open gates, kids able to come and go as they please. I've heard horror stories of kids been raped in school toilets by drunk locals that just wander into the playground. Made me very uneasy about putting her in that environment tbh

[Doctor Tom]

12 minutes ago, JimmyB81 said:

number one thing to do was make sure I was named as Father on the birth cert, so that box has been ticked, thankfully.

Sorry to stress this again, but that is meaningless in law here. It gets you nowhere, if other matters are raised by your ex.  The fact that it was an IVF birth could be a real negative,. Our daughters Birth Cert was rejected as proof of parenthood at the first step.  So was my UK Court Affidavit, sworn in front of a UK High Court Judge and submitted to the Thais. . 

Edited July 16 by Doctor Tom

[JimmyB81]

2 minutes ago, Doctor Tom said:

She could, but if she does, there must be a good chance she will never return.  Get a banning order. 

wow, complete banning order? That does sound a bit extreme.

I genuinely don't think my ex would taker her there if we had an agreement that she stay in uk and just go to Thailand for holidays.

I did speak to a lawyer here a few months ago and he mentioned The Hague Convention as being something i could rely on, but he did say that if she took our child to Thailand, it could be difficult/expensive to bring her back to UK

[BritManToo]

This is a great story,

Thai lady has grown up kids from different fathers.

Gets married to another guy last year.

You have a baby with her while she's still married and spent all your savings building her a house on her father's land (amazing fast build).

And she's already moved onto another guy.

That's a tight timeline!

Especially considering how long it takes to set up IVF (4 months plus).

 

But you feel she's a very trustworthy and moral person?

 

Edited July 16 by BritManToo

[Doctor Tom]

1 minute ago, JimmyB81 said:

The Hague Convention as being something i could rely on, but he did say that if she took our child to Thailand, it could be difficult/expensive to bring her back to UK

He's right.  Do you think for one second that the Thais would take any notice of the Hague Convention? You sound like a straight up guy, who just want's to keep everything friendly, but good guys don't always get what they want.  

[JimmyB81]

49 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

This is a great story,

Thai lady has grown up kids from different fathers.

Gets married to another guy last year.

You have a baby with her while she's still married and spent all your savings building her a house on her father's land (amazing fast build).

And she's already moved onto another guy.

That's a tight timeline!

Especially considering how long it takes to set up IVF (4 months plus).

 

But you feel she's a very trustworthy and moral person?

 

Saying it's a" great story" means you are implying I've made it up, right?

Not sure why anyone would waste their time making up a story like this. I'm a busy man, certainly don't have time in my day to do something like that for no reason.

 

Maybe I've not been clear enough one some of the details / timeline:

 

 - My ex has two previous kids from the same Thai man. The kids are 17 and 19 now and they lived with my ex's mom in Thailand while my ex was abroad working the last 15+ years.

 - She was married to a UK man in 2018, who brought her here to UK to live with him, against her wishes. He abused her. She got awarded ILR for UK.

 - I met her in summer 2021, few months after she left her ex husband. 

 - We started our IVF in summer 2022. Her divorce from her ex only went through in early 2023.

 - Our child was born in Jan 24.

 - We started building our house in summer last year. It is not finished yet. Will be ready in probably two months. 

 

Maybe the timeline seems tight to you, but that is what happened. Judge me on my poor & impulsive life choices all you want, but I've not made anything up.

 

My ex has not moved onto another guy, not sure why you've got that impression. We still live together in UK, until she can get some financial assistance to live alone. 

 

 

Edited July 16 by JimmyB81