Thai Tax on UK pensions

[Humpy]

I have a State and a Military pension totalling Baht 80,000 a month. What Thai Tax will I have to pay ? 

[sandyf]

19 minutes ago, Humpy said:

I have a State and a Military pension totalling Baht 80,000 a month. What Thai Tax will I have to pay ? 

None.

From Article 19 of the DTA.

(a) Any pension paid by the Contracting State or a political subdivision or a local authority thereof to any individual in respect of services of a governmental nature rendered to that State or subdivision or local authority thereof shall be taxable only in that State.

(b) However, such pension shall be taxable only in the other contracting State if the recipient is a national of and a resident of that State. 

[BobBKK]

37 minutes ago, Humpy said:

I have a State and a Military pension totalling Baht 80,000 a month. What Thai Tax will I have to pay ? 

 
I'm almost in the same boat with an NHS pension and a State Pension due this year. I have deferred the State Pension until we get clarity.

[BobBKK]

13 minutes ago, sandyf said:

None.

From Article 19 of the DTA.

(a) Any pension paid by the Contracting State or a political subdivision or a local authority thereof to any individual in respect of services of a governmental nature rendered to that State or subdivision or local authority thereof shall be taxable only in that State.

(b) However, such pension shall be taxable only in the other contracting State if the recipient is a national of and a resident of that State. 

 
Are you 100% sure, Sandy? Bizarrely, the state pension is not classified as a government pension.

[sandyf]

8 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 
Are you 100% sure, Sandy? Bizarrely, the state pension is not classified as a government pension.

Not quite sure what you are trying to say there. 

The state pension is a pension paid by the government and couldn't be seen in the same light as a government pension such as that paid to civil servents. The State Pension is funded directly from taxation, government pensions are funded from the budget of the appropriate government department.

If however you are picking up on the fact that the government would prefer to call it a benefit then a different issue.

It would really depend on who is trying to say what, but I think it is fairly clear, all my correspondence comes from "The Pension Service".

At the end of the day it shouldn't really matter as tax has already been paid and the whole object of a DTA is to avoid tax being paid twice, being only taxable in the contracting state just simplifies things.

[Thingamabob]

Before spending money on professional advice, or worrying over much, wait until the situation clarifies. 

[david saunders]

Paragraph 18 of A Simple Guide to Personal Income Tax in Thailand states that UK State Pension is not covered by a DTA so it is assessable income in Thailand whilst UK Government or Civil Service, UK Armed Forces and some NHS Pensions are not.

[Raindancer]

17 hours ago, Humpy said:

I have a State and a Military pension totalling Baht 80,000 a month. What Thai Tax will I have to pay ? 

I am in the same boat:

But my total allowances according to the table produced by @Mike Lister, provide 560k per year.

 

Therefore as my UK state pension is below that, I have no tax to pay. 

 

My military pension, according to the TRD is exempt, therfore, I  still have no income tax to pay.

 

I hope that reassures you.

[BE88]

7 minutes ago, Raindancer said:

I am in the same boat:

But my total allowances according to the table produced by @Mike Lister, provide 560k per year.

 

Therefore as my UK state pension is below that, I have no tax to pay. 

 

My military pension, according to the TRD is exempt, therfore, I  still have no income tax to pay.

 

I hope that reassures you.

 

OP should clarify more about his position regarding the Thai tax before answering his case.

 

More information can be found here

 

 

[Raindancer]

4 minutes ago, BE88 said:

 

OP should clarify more about his position regarding the Thai tax before answering his case.

 

More information can be found here

 

 

Agreed.  Thanks for the table.  I couldn't locate mine to post.🙏🏻

Edited August 1 by Raindancer

[sometimewoodworker]

18 hours ago, Humpy said:

I have a State and a Military pension totalling Baht 80,000 a month. What Thai Tax will I have to pay ? 

As has been mentioned it is possible that you will have no tax liability, it is also possible that you may have a modest liability.

 

You haven’t given enough information to be clear or for anyone to tell you what allowances are available.

First you need to state the £ value of your state pension is, it may or may not be above the U.K. personal allowance so you may or may not be paying U.K. tax on it. If taxed then the U.K. tax offsets the Thai tax. However your military pension may also be taxed in the U.K. (I don’t know if they are) however if it is taxed you cannot offset that against Thai taxes as the military pension is not assessable income in Thailand, so equally U.K. tax on that is not claimable against that tax

 

You must be over 65 so that is enough information for some allowances 

If married you have an allowance if your spouse is not filing, and you also have dependent parents-in-law there are allowances for that

the other point is the exchange rate you are using, the Thai exchange rate is volatile and your 80,000 per month could be from pensions producing between £22,000 and £20,000

 

[sandyf]

1 hour ago, david saunders said:

Paragraph 18 of A Simple Guide to Personal Income Tax in Thailand states that UK State Pension is not covered by a DTA so it is assessable income in Thailand whilst UK Government or Civil Service, UK Armed Forces and some NHS Pensions are not.

Unless you can enlighten us with a valid reason on why the UK state pension would not be covered by the DTA, I will go by what the DTA actually says.

I have seen many non UK nationals make various misinformed comments regarding the state pension,  this being a common one. I just put it down to a lack of understanding.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

31 minutes ago, GmailJen said:

Whilst on the subject of "Pensions"   ,  I originally had a QROPS (allowed under government rules)  and also funds ( inheritance ) that were taxed at the time of my relatives demise .  These are now in a Trust fund which I receive income from .   How will this income be judged by the tax authorities here in Thailand ?? 

it is not the tax authorities who initially judge it is you
 

It is assessable income if it is interest.
If it is capital and interest the capital part may not be (probably isn’t) assessable 

 

you may later be audited and have to justify your decisions

Edited August 1 by sometimewoodworker

[Surasak]

18 hours ago, BobBKK said:

 
Are you 100% sure, Sandy? Bizarrely, the state pension is not classified as a government pension.

You are quite correct in that BobKK. It is classed as  benefit. Which is why successive governments of the past 70+ years, refuse to increase them to certain countries.

[hotandsticky]

17 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Unless you can enlighten us with a valid reason on why the UK state pension would not be covered by the DTA, I will go by what the DTA actually says.

I have seen many non UK nationals make various misinformed comments regarding the state pension,  this being a common one. I just put it down to a lack of understanding.

 

 

 

Just for completeness could you please quote the DTA reference on UK state pension.

[hotandsticky]

9 minutes ago, Surasak said:

You are quite correct in that BobKK. It is classed as  benefit. Which is why successive governments of the past 70+ years, refuse to increase them to certain countries.

 

 

It is not because it is a 'benefit' though  -  the freezing is down to reciprocal tax agreements.

 

 

Although it is classed as a 'benefit' it is treated differently - and does have the feel of an entitlement based on contributions. 

[sometimewoodworker]

27 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Unless you can enlighten us with a valid reason on why the UK state pension would not be covered by the DTA, I will go by what the DTA actually says.

I have seen many non UK nationals make various misinformed comments regarding the state pension,  this being a common one. I just put it down to a lack of understanding.

 

The only mention of pensions in the UK/THAILAND DOUBLE TAXATION CONVENTION is in Article 19 Governmental Services  section 2 a 

Quote

Any pension paid by the Contracting State or a political subdivision or a local authority thereof to any individual in respect of services of a governmental nature rendered to that State or subdivision or local authority thereof shall be taxable only in that State.  

Do note that anything not explicitly defined and written in the DTC is not covered by the DTC

 

The misunderstanding that the U.K. state pension is governed by the DTC is yours and your misreading or misunderstanding of what is written 

 

NB that does not apply to Thai citizens living in Thailand 

Quote

(b) However, such pension shall be taxable only in the other contracting State if the recipient is a national of and a resident of that State. 

 

Edited August 1 by sometimewoodworker

[nong38]

 I was looking at TNT 9(Tim Newton Today ) on youtube yesterday and for the edition of July 5th he quotes an article in the Pattaya newspaper, it might be worth going and having a look at this. The article says that pensions will not be taxed in Thailand and also that any money brought into Thailand before 31st December 2024 i will also not be taxed. We were waiting for clarification in July is this what we were waiting for?

[Surasak]

19 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Unless you can enlighten us with a valid reason on why the UK state pension would not be covered by the DTA, I will go by what the DTA actually says.

I have seen many non UK nationals make various misinformed comments regarding the state pension,  this being a common one. I just put it down to a lack of understanding.

 

At present the UK DWP pension is not taxed in the UK. It could therefore be classed as taxable income by Thailand? The new thieves of the Labour party may well change this in their up coming budget, due Oct/Nov this year.

[Raindancer]

Just now, Surasak said:

At present the UK DWP pension is not taxed in the UK. It could therefore be classed as taxable income by Thailand? The new thieves of the Labour party may well change this in their up coming budget, due Oct/Nov this year.

But the UK state pension, still falls under the allowances of TRD, if indeed a person's total allowance is 560k, as already clarified.

 

Ergo: no tax on that particular " income" remitted to Thailand.

[sometimewoodworker]

3 minutes ago, nong38 said:

 I was looking at TNT 9(Tim Newton Today ) on youtube yesterday and for the edition of July 5th he quotes an article in the Pattaya newspaper, it might be worth going and having a look at this. The article says that pensions will not be taxed in Thailand and also that any money brought into Thailand before 31st December 2024 i will also not be taxed. We were waiting for clarification in July is this what we were waiting for?

he is wrong on the vast majority of pensions, he is wrong about the no tax.

 

4 minutes ago, Surasak said:

At present the UK DWP pension is not taxed in the UK. It could therefore be classed as taxable income by Thailand? The new thieves of the Labour party may well change this in their up coming budget, due Oct/Nov this year.

If income is taxed outside Thailand is irrelevant to its being assessable in Thailand. The possible changes that the U.K. government may make have no effect on the assessablity of the income in Thailand 

[CharlieKo]

2 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Thailand and also that any money brought into Thailand before 31st December 2024

I think you mean 31 December 2023!

[sometimewoodworker]

4 minutes ago, CharlieKo said:

I think you mean 31 December 2023!

The date of 2024 is not mine. 
do please read the complete post before making corrections to other people’s posts and claiming them to be from me.

Edited August 1 by sometimewoodworker

[KannikaP]

19 hours ago, Humpy said:

I have a State and a Military pension totalling Baht 80,000 a month. What Thai Tax will I have to pay ? 

You only have to pay Thai tax on what you send here. There have been MANY articles on this, but basically, you get firstly a tax free allowance, then some for being over 65, then some for your Mrs if married, then 0% on the next 150k, 5% 0n next 100k. Work it out, or go to ask your local tax office.

[KannikaP]

3 minutes ago, CharlieKo said:

 

You obviously have no idea what amount the Thai Pension is. It's peanuts compared to the UK pension. 

And of course, pension deductions from a UK salary are tax free, so you pay tax in UK when you take it.

[topt]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

Unless you can enlighten us with a valid reason on why the UK state pension would not be covered by the DTA, I will go by what the DTA actually says.

I have seen many non UK nationals make various misinformed comments regarding the state pension,  this being a common one. I just put it down to a lack of understanding.

I think any lack of understanding on this is yours. Been discussed more times than I care to remember.

Have a look in the digest link below and go to page 34 - Thailand - and read note 4 on the far right hand side.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/710099/DT_Digest_April_2018.pdf

[topt]

51 minutes ago, hotandsticky said:

 

 

Just for completeness could you please quote the DTA reference on UK state pension.

see my post above - he is wrong.

Edited August 1 by topt
2 above now.....

[AAArdvark]

I was able to google the tax treaty between the US and Thailand and download a lengthy document which clearly states the pensions and annuities can not be taxed in Thailand. 

I would think that the UK would have a similar document online. 

[Unamerican]

Just now, Unamerican said:

14 minutes ago, AAArdvark said:

I was able to google the tax treaty between the US and Thailand and download a lengthy document which clearly states the pensions and annuities can not be taxed in Thailand. 

I would think that the UK would have a similar document online. 

There is indeed a “similar document” for the U.K. but its contents are markedly different.  

Please do not confuse this issue by posting such facts that are totally unrelated to the facts for U.K. taxpayers. 

[Unamerican]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

Unless you can enlighten us with a valid reason on why the UK state pension would not be covered by the DTA, I will go by what the DTA actually says.

I have seen many non UK nationals make various misinformed comments regarding the state pension,  this being a common one. I just put it down to a lack of understanding.

 

So please tell us what the DTA does say about U.K. income!