Using an overseas Debit Card to minimise paying tax for those of us staying over 180 days

[tandor]

On 8/6/2024 at 5:41 PM, 4MyEgo said:

I am looking at ways to minimise paying tax (legally) from money remitted to Thailand from abroad.

 

A friend of mine told me to get a WISE Debit Card as I am with WISE and usually remit my overseas funds that way, but things have changed now.

 

I haven't remitted anything this year and am returning to my home country shortly, so am thinking about ordering one online and picking it up at my home land address.

 

I am thinking if I use my WISE Debit Card to shop, I may attract a fee of 5% at some shops here in the LOS even thought there is no fee charged to the seller, and maybe if I try to take some cash out from the ATM I will get charged a fee of 200-220 on 20,000 baht and then WISE charge me ?

 

Not sure how it all works, so would be very interest to know what members with a WISE Debit Card think and how they use this card and what charges if any they get charged and which stores charge a fee, e.g. Lotus, Big C, Makro, PTT etc etc, i.e. if they accept this debit card, and what charges for withdrawing Thai baht from the ATM's, and if it's only here or at WISE's end as well.

 

 

bring a bag of cash with you..just make sure you declare if over the minimum non-declarable amount...have a Thai friend go Exchange it for Thai Baht. 

[Mike Teavee]

4 hours ago, Rob Browder said:

The tricky part will be for new arrivals and the initial "set up money" they bring in - to buy a condo, car, etc.  If I were in that situation, I would get a DTV, then have 5 years to bring it in - minimizing tax due each year on any amount remitted above their pension income. 

Having a DTV wouldn't help you or change what you might owe in taxes if you use it to spend 180+ days in Thailand in any one calendar year & if you don't spend 180+ days in Thailand then there is no difference between having a DTV & any other kind of Visa.

 

End of the day you are either Tax Resident (180+ days in country) or you're not (<180 days in country) & with the exception of the LTR visas it doesn't matter on what basis you're staying in Thailand (Even Visa Exempt) your tax position would be exactly the same. 

 

 

Edit: Now I re-read your post, I think what you might have being trying to say was you would use DTVs so you could bring the 800K in gradually over a few years, If it were me I would simply bring it all over in a year where I spent < 180 days in Thailand.

Edited August 9 by Mike Teavee

[Scouse123]

And 8 pages of speculation because the Thai government has remained silent and offered no clarifications.

 

That in itself leads to suspicion.

 

All the rest has been accountant speculation and forecasts. Nothing has been confirmed.

 

This will create massive paperwork, a nightmare to police it and check it out.

 

Then there is dealing with all the various agreements and different nationalities

 

There will be an exodus of foreigners.

 

People will stop transferring to buy condos, cars.

 

You really think this government can implement this successfully or wants to risk this?

 

Countries with far more robust taxation laws have not been able to.

 

The Thai government is scratting around, trying anything to find money.

[chiang mai]

12 hours ago, WebGuy said:

My Thai wife and I have a company (she owns 51% and I own 49%). I am appointed as a director. 

 

I didn't know there are these premiums for tax deduction. 

 

Could you please provide some source?

The rules for company deductions are different from the TEDA (deductions) permitted for personal income tax, be careful not to confuse the two.

[chiang mai]

3 hours ago, Scouse123 said:

And 8 pages of speculation because the Thai government has remained silent and offered no clarifications.

 

That in itself leads to suspicion.

 

All the rest has been accountant speculation and forecasts. Nothing has been confirmed.

 

This will create massive paperwork, a nightmare to police it and check it out.

 

Then there is dealing with all the various agreements and different nationalities

 

There will be an exodus of foreigners.

 

People will stop transferring to buy condos, cars.

 

You really think this government can implement this successfully or wants to risk this?

 

Countries with far more robust taxation laws have not been able to.

 

The Thai government is scratting around, trying anything to find money.

What you don't appear to understand is that the rule change has already been implemented and the clock is now ticking, since 1 January. The change that was made was so small as to be almost imperceptible to most people but it has significant impact on the minority, that means implementation was/is only a trivial event. The onus is now on everyone to abide by the rules, including the minor rule change which potentially will snare many foreigners. So yes, everything has been confirmed. The onus was always on everyone to abide by the rules previously but most foreigners believed they were exempt or had been given a pass and didn't have to file a tax return. You can continue to believe those things if you wish but the odds are now that not playing by the rules will come back and bite you at some point. The TRD is very serious about wanting to increase the size of the tax net, if and when foreigners will be a part of that is debatable but there is no legal reason why they wont and all the indicators are that they will.

[Luuk Chaai]

On 8/6/2024 at 7:55 PM, norbra said:

There's a lot of information on the forums re reducing your tax liability.

When the news first broke about the closing of the loophole regarding remits,I ran my numbers against TH taxable income and I was looking at 60,000baht tax pa.

But keeping up with the many posts I was able to determine that as a single,aged pensioner I can claim 500,000 thb as allowable deductions so with out trying to find further loopholes my liabilty is now 3,000 thb pa.

With 5 months remaining in this tax year I could reduce my remits to a level where i am tax free.

Remember all earnings prior to 2024 you may have saved and remitted are not assessable.

 

Last month The Thai revenue department refused my application for a Tax Identifier Number because my income was in my home country currency and I had no income from employment in Thailand.

So I cannot file a tax return because I don't have a tax id number.

Go see your revenue office and get current information about your circumstsances

 

I got my Tax ID # last month .     with a  US Social Security statement and current transaction from my passbook

   you do realaze that if you are married,,     you qualify for tax free gift to the wife

[Luuk Chaai]

On 8/7/2024 at 4:04 PM, chiang mai said:

Oh I don't know, two square meals a day, free health care and a break from the missus plus a lot of banter with the lads all day long, it beats working your butt off in the rice fields in the hot sun. :))

 

the working your Butt off has a lot more meaning in jail

[chiang mai]

4 minutes ago, Luuk Chaai said:

 

I got my Tax ID # last month .     with a  US Social Security statement and current transaction from my passbook

   you do realaze that if you are married,,     you qualify for tax free gift to the wife

Thai Gift Tax rules don't apply only to wives but to all relatives and others also. 

 

https://sherrings.com/gift-tax-law-in-thailand.html

 

 

Edited August 9 by chiang mai

[tandor]

On 8/6/2024 at 6:55 PM, bkk6060 said:

How does tax work with my Wise Account?

If you have questions about your taxes or filing a return — speak to a qualified professional. Wise can’t give you advice on your personal tax situation, and this article is meant for information purposes only.

---

We know tax can be complicated and stressful, but here’s a breakdown of how tax works with your Wise account.

Wise is required to follow local tax laws in every country we operate in. That means in some countries we might be required to:

• withhold on currency transfers,

• give customers an invoice for their remittance,

• report customer data to the local tax authorities. 

We try to be as transparent as possible about any tax we're required to withhold, and any information of yours we're required to report, however we're not authorised to provide you with any tax advice.

What information do you report to tax authorities?

The answer to this changes based on which country you’re in. Certain Wise entities must comply with the global anti-tax evasion regimes, FATCA and CRS, due to the type of products they offer.

For example, our newest product, Assets, causes a subsidiary of Wise, TINV Ltd., which provides the Assets product to fall within the scope of FATCA and CRS as a Custodial Institution. Customers that participate in Assets who are deemed to be reportable persons will be reported to HMRC in line with the Automatic Exchange of Information. 

Wise is working directly with the Electronic Money Association (EMA) and the Organisation for Economic Co-operation (OECD) to ensure our processes and products combat any tax evasion. As and when Wise is obligated to collect and report customer tax and financial information to tax authorities we will do so. 

In addition to tax requirements, other regulations may require Wise to collect certain data, like transactions over a certain threshold, and report it to regulatory bodies. Our Terms and Conditions of each entity provide more information about what we may need to report to different tax authorities. 

Who do I have to report my taxes to?

Customers are required to disclose and pay any necessary taxes associated with transfers made through our systems, or on cash received into their Wise Account. 

The triggering of a tax liability and/or reporting obligation will depend on your tax residency, the nature of the income, and potentially the amount. We recommend you seek tax advice if you're unclear on the tax implications of a specific transaction.

Does Wise charge any taxes?

Wise may have to levy tax on its transfer fee according to local tax laws. For example Brazilian real (BRL) transactions where IOF (Imposto sobre Operações Financeiras — financial operations tax) may be imposed. Where transactional taxes apply, these will either be included in the fee payable or shown separately at the time of payment, and won’t impact the amount sent to the recipient.

Wise will pay out the agreed amount to the recipient and, if required to withhold any taxes, will disclose any taxes that will apply. Depending on the nature of a transfer, you or the recipient may need to declare and pay tax. Wise can’t advise whether tax applies to your transfer and we recommend that you ask a financial advisor and/or the relevant tax authority

How does having a Wise Account impact my taxes?

The features and functionality of the Wise Account product vary across jurisdictions, which could impact the taxes you may need to pay. Please consult a tax advisor if you are unsure of your tax payment or filing obligations. 

If you earn any interest while holding money with Wise you may need to pay tax on the annual interest earned in accordance with the laws and regulations where you are a tax resident. Additionally, if you receive any taxable payments (salary or otherwise) into your Wise Account from a 3rd party,  that will also be taxed in accordance with the laws and regulations where you are a resident for tax purposes.

Wise is typically not a withholding agent in most jurisdictions, so if you believe you should be paying taxes on income you receive into your Wise Account, please consult a tax advisor. The exception to this is if you are a customer of Wise Europe and receive balance cashback on your account. Wise will withhold 30% of any cashback you earn.

If you hold your money in Assets with Wise, you may earn taxable and/or reportable income, which you will be responsible for paying taxes on in accordance with the local laws and regulators in your tax jurisdiction(s). We recommend that you consult a tax advisor if you need assistance calculating any proceeds or gains on your investment. Wise provides our Assets customers with a comprehensive proceeds statement associated with their trading activity with Wise but we cannot provide further tax advice

 

 

Thailand recently joined CRS and will have access to just about any financial account including Wise.  Good luck to those who believe this or that account cannot be traced or exposed.

thanks for the complex explanation...but I am none the wiser

[tandor]

On 8/7/2024 at 9:16 AM, 4MyEgo said:

 

Are gifts taxable in Thailand?

Amount of Taxation
The Gift Tax rate for the non-related receivers is 10% while it is 5% for descendants or ascendants. For those who are eligible to pay 10% gift tax are offered an opportunity to pay 5% gift tax rate. This is under certain circumstances only.

 

The above said, I think I have come up with what I believe to be a brainstorm idea for those with in-laws over 65 who don't have an income, plus my wife not having an income.

 

Actually the wife came up with the in-laws idea, so credit to her.

 

I gift 190,000 to my father-in-law & another 190,000 to my mother-in-law as they are allowed a 190,000 deductible, (accounts to be open with no ATM cards, so no annual fee for each account.

 

These will be new accounts which my wife of 2 decades will hold, I will then transfer 150,000 baht to my wife's account, i.e. also a gift and is under the threshold amount of 150,000.

 

The total gifted comes to 530,000 and I have 460,000 worth of deductibles, i.e. 990,000 in total, as I am over 65 years of age and can claim 150,000 for age, then 60,000 as a self personal allowance, plus 60,000 to wife as a personal allowance, so 990,000, that's as close to the mil as one can get which suites me, and is legal.

 

What this means is, I pay zero tax, oh and yes, as soon as the money hits the in-laws accounts, my wife can make an internet transfer from the bank (newly set up from the in-laws accounts) to her account, and we can make withdrawals when we fill it necessary via my wife's account.

 

I will keep the 400,000 baht required in my account for the annual marriage extension which has been in my account prior to 2024. 

 

More than one way to claw back to what I perceive as a stupid law as we already contribute to Thailand's economy.

 

If anyone foresees a problem with how I'm thinking, please feel free to burst my bubble.

 

 

so the elderly in-laws don't mind being in the laundry business for no commission?

[tandor]

On 8/7/2024 at 11:25 AM, GreasyFingers said:

If the Revenue dept take a simplistic view (likely as it is the easy way) all remittances will be looked at as income and you will have to prove otherwise.

as i was registering for my Tax ID the woman stressed that the TRD operate under 'the honour system'.

[tandor]

On 8/7/2024 at 2:17 PM, puck2 said:

Isn't it crazy that we Farangs must make a monthly money transfer of ~65.000 THB, 800.000 THB within a year, to receive a Visa for 1 year, if not married with a Thai.

 

But the Srettha government will tax us already with much lower money transfers to Thailand. It seems they need the Farang-Money to finance their expensive programs – Landbridge from Ranong to Chumpon, the Digital Wallet system (with an income below 70.000 THB monthly !!!), the list goes on.

 

 

This would be the amount, if you are married. Not married gives you a free money transfer of 500.000 THB (500.000 ./. 60.000). You could add a tax free amount of health insurance. But only, if you pay the insurance to a THAI company; a very friendly allowence (irony).

 

Now let's do the mathematic in the case of a single farang without a Thai insurence: (I use the VISA-rates of today (withpout any fees) for a transfer of ---->

 

500.000THB =in US $ = exchange rate: 35.200035 = 14.156,27 US$

500.000THB = in GBP =    “““                : 44.750,29 = 11.173,05 GBP

500.000THB = in EURO = ““““               : 38,505940 = 12.985,01 €

 

All money transfers, higher than mentioned before, would be taxed income. 500.000 THB means a monthly transfer of more than ~41.667 THB would be taxed.

 

Because the Thai system does not have something like a social system, I support the 2 children of my life partner including her grandchildren by at least 40.000THB per month. (we are not married). Both children have lost their jobs, because of the bad economic situation.

 

If the DTA (Double Tax Agreement) wouldn't work, they also would punish me for supporting her children and her grandchildren. What a shame for the ruling government.

 

as explained to me by TRD, proof of the payment of health insurance premium paid to whatever company in Thailand..not necessarily a Thai company. (In my case it was BUPA/AETNA now AllianzAyutthaya)...can claim up to 25,000THB of the Premium.

[GreasyFingers]

27 minutes ago, tandor said:

as i was registering for my Tax ID the woman stressed that the TRD operate under 'the honour system'.

That would be good but is contrary to what other people have been told by a different official.

[tandor]

On 8/7/2024 at 3:23 PM, chiang mai said:

Because they have little to lose in most cases, perhaps.

any outstanding fines could be deducted from their DigitalWallet 10k.

[jerrymahoney]

15 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

I'd love to see the revenue department attempting to investigate whether or not a spouse benefited from funds that were sent using this exemption. 

The Thai Revenue Code No. 40 you reference went into effect 01 FEB 2016.

 

If it were possible to bring in funds originating ex-Thailand into Thailand up to 20 million baht per year tax-free, you would think some of the high-flier clients of the Thai law and tax accounting firms would have utilized this capability as of 02 FEB 2016.

 

But there are no indications anywhere that they have.

[tandor]

On 8/8/2024 at 7:48 AM, mikebell said:

I doubt it very much; there aren't enough officials with sufficient English to follow these discussions.

If there are Government people reading this, please be aware, IF you attempt to tax my already taxed pensions in UK, I will be moving to Laos taking my 800K with me.

TRD don't need to speak any foreign language to run all your Immigration/Passport/Bank Account details through their system. They know all about you already.

[818Pilot]

Seriously, why would anyone come to this forum or any other for financial advice?

 

But more importantly, nothing is set in stone yet, so what is said today won’t be the same as tomorrow.
 

As so many others have pointed out, they can’t even collect accurately from their own citizens, do you really think they can from all the expats. Oh, and if you’re reading the gossip columns or the YouTube lawyer, that's not really a lawyer in country, about the requirement for retirement renewal, don’t, they are just rumors!

[patman30]

21 hours ago, chiang mai said:

It was unclear from what you wrote previously that you were referring to non-assessable funds. If the funds are not assessable, they can be remitted at will, there's no need to remit lots of them now..

well you did not read the comment i was replying too, and seems you did not read the part after when i stated
"who knows what it may be in a few years time."
as time goes by the likelihood of savings earned prior to 2024 decreases, so transfers may be scrutinized more in future
they may also change the regulation in future and simply tax all transfers, who knows.....?

if you plan to stay here and have to transfer your savings here, you might as well get it done while you can
 

[chiang mai]

4 minutes ago, 818Pilot said:

Seriously, why would anyone come to this forum or any other for financial advice?

 

But more importantly, nothing is set in stone yet, so what is said today won’t be the same as tomorrow.
 

As so many others have pointed out, they can’t even collect accurately from their own citizens, do you really think they can from all the expats. Oh, and if you’re reading the gossip columns or the YouTube lawyer, that's not really a lawyer in country, about the requirement for retirement renewal, don’t, they are just rumors!

Whoosh!

[gamb00ler]

On 8/7/2024 at 2:44 PM, advancebooking said:

How on earth do you think this incompetent govt dept can enforce the new rules that they are proposing. Think about that. 

Even in Thailand, the banks have very large data centers.  The BiB show up one day and ask for a file that contains all the deposits that exceed the threshold that interests them to accounts that don't have a Thai tax ID associated with it.  They sort that file using the size of deposit so the biggest ones are easy to spot....

can you figure out the rest???

[Presnock]

3 hours ago, chiang mai said:

The rules for company deductions are different from the TEDA (deductions) permitted for personal income tax, be careful not to confuse the two.

should be able to go the thai revenue department website and read about their taxes, exemptions, deductions, etc.

[jerrymahoney]

One of the Thai law firms states:  

 

"Hence, gift tax is collected to prevent inheritance taxation avoidance."

 

So while some on here are stating (rightly or wrongly) that WOW! they can transfer up to 20 million baht each year as a gift tax-free --

 

-- some of the persons to whom the FEB 2016 gift tax revision was intended then were saying:

 

WOW! so now we can ONLY transfer up to 20 million baht each year tax-free..

 

[Geir Rasch]

On 8/6/2024 at 8:45 PM, 4MyEgo said:

 

Care to share how.

 

I see as I am over 65, I get 190,000 baht for self, wife 60,000 baht, and shopping tax allowance 50,000 baht, so there is up to 300,000 baht, I can get off with, that said, if I bring a mil in, I am going to pay over 100k baht in taxes, unless I can deduct more.

Deduction: age 195k, income 100k, person 60k, wife: 60k, shopping: 50k= 465k. Bring in 1000k - 465= taxable income 535k. First 150k = 0 tax, next 150k (5%)= 7,5k, next 200k (10%)=20,0k, rest 35k (15%)=5,25k Sum tax: 7,5 + 20,0 + 5,25k = 32,75k. If you have health/life insurance or care for wife's children the deduction will increase.

[sometimewoodworker]

3 hours ago, Geir Rasch said:

Deduction: age 195k, income 100k, person 60k, wife: 60k, shopping: 50k= 465k. Bring in 1000k - 465= taxable income 535k. First 150k = 0 tax, next 150k (5%)= 7,5k, next 200k (10%)=20,0k, rest 35k (15%)=5,25k Sum tax: 7,5 + 20,0 + 5,25k = 32,75k. If you have health/life insurance or care for wife's children the deduction will increase.

You have forgotten the credit for tax already paid in the home country (in my case this year ฿76,000)

[Geir Rasch]

1 minute ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You have forgotten the credit for tax already paid in the home country (in my case this year ฿76,000)

That depends on the tax treaty between Thailand and your home country. In my case my country pays back tax on pension taxed in Thailand, so for me it is a very good deal paying tax to Thailand.

[Cornishman]

On 8/6/2024 at 8:53 PM, frank83628 said:

send less than $20USD at a time and it wont flag in the system. you do that a few times to get your mill in under the radar. get a Thai bank acc & card for everyday use and no longer worry about it.

There are fees on each transfer you/wise carry out....this will probably be in excess of any tax the Thai government will take from you..

[Scouse123]

9 hours ago, gamb00ler said:

Even in Thailand, the banks have very large data centers.  The BiB show up one day and ask for a file that contains all the deposits that exceed the threshold that interests them to accounts that don't have a Thai tax ID associated with it.  They sort that file using the size of deposit so the biggest ones are easy to spot....

can you figure out the rest???

Nothing to do with the BIB

 

[newbee2022]

On 8/9/2024 at 5:00 PM, sometimewoodworker said:

It absolutely is not essentially the same thing. It absolutely vital that you exactly follow the precise terms and wording that will avoid a tax liability.

 

As I said there is nothing to stop your spouse from taking care of all household expenses, and there is nothing in the rules to stop you from being a kept man, you can not however receive money from her/him.

 

Does it look like a loophole in the law? Of course it does. However it is a currently available one.

How can you publish such nonsense. You are really lacking any knowledge.😂😂😂

[chiang mai]

3 minutes ago, newbee2022 said:

How can you publish such nonsense. You are really lacking any knowledge.😂😂😂

You would do well to read the following, instead of wasting your time posting sad emojis!

 

 

[BE88]

On 8/9/2024 at 4:38 PM, spidermike007 said:

Well it's essentially the same thing, we're really nitpicking at this point. If a spouse receives 5 million baht, is it even possible that the revenue department is even going to consider the possibility that the husband would not benefit from it, much less be able to prove it? I don't think so. It would appear to be a deliberate loophole in the law. 

 

Exactly and it is a deliberate flaw for rich Thais who can deduct the 20 million from the company income and therefore the husbands having other incomes will not be checked.

 

Therefore for expats this is impossible to sustain.