Its Happening - Law to Tax Overseas Income Now in Progress

[topt]

29 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Wasn't that the shock news very recently that money sent during those "off years", still didn't escape tax? Tbh I wasn't paying close attention to the discussion because of vacation planning. And now on hols, I'm not going to look it up but I do think there is still a tax liability. Perhaps others can chip in?

Yes that was clear on the recent Expattax video and seemingly confirmed on the TRD website graphics. Money earnt but not remitted whilst tax resident becomes assessable if it is ever remitted in the future.

 

PS - enjoy your vacation.

[ukrules]

11 hours ago, chiang mai said:

Wasn't that the shock news very recently that money sent during those "off years", still didn't escape tax? Tbh I wasn't paying close attention to the discussion because of vacation planning. And now on hols, I'm not going to look it up but I do think there is still a tax liability. Perhaps others can chip in?

 

Only if you earn the money in a year when you're a tax resident, if that's the case then you are taxed whenever you bring it in.
 

[oldcpu]

11 hours ago, topt said:

Yes that was clear on the recent Expattax video and seemingly confirmed on the TRD website graphics. Money earnt but not remitted whilst tax resident becomes assessable if it is ever remitted in the future.

 

 

According to the Thai Revenue Department order no. P.162/2023 this only applies to income earned from 1-Jan-2024 onward.  Money earned prior can be brought into the country after 1-Jan-2024 with no tax by Thailand.

 

I suspect one will though need to keep good financial records to credibly show the money (brought into Thailand after 1-Jan-2024)  was earned prior to 1-Jan-2024.

 

Of course this could all change, but that is my understanding from the Thai Revenue Department order no. P.162/2023.

[oldcpu]

For those not familiar with the Thai Revenue Department order no. P.162/2023 ... Here is a google translation (from Thai to English).  Obviously a google translation is NOT official. 

 

Again - disregard the format !!! as its a Goggle Translation.  It is not an official translation - rather this is the presentation google gives when one drags an image document into Google to translate.

 

[Njoku]

On 9/8/2024 at 6:56 PM, Danderman123 said:

If Thailand imposes a worldwide income tax, Farangs will depart in droves.

 

I would reside in Thailand for 179 days a year, and visit other countries.

 

 

You are not very intelligent or are very rich, the pittance in tax you would need to pay here or none at all would pale in airfares and hotels before finding somewhere to rent in foreign lands....

[Danderman123]

24 minutes ago, Njoku said:

You are not very intelligent or are very rich, the pittance in tax you would need to pay here or none at all would pale in airfares and hotels before finding somewhere to rent in foreign lands....

You have no idea how much I would have to pay in Thai capital gains tax.

 

I have Founder's shares in 2 aerospace companies.

[ukrules]

1 hour ago, Danderman123 said:

You have no idea how much I would have to pay in Thai capital gains tax.

 

I have Founder's shares in 2 aerospace companies.

 

Just make sure you're non resident in a year when you sell them and you're good to remit any time in the future.

 

Easier said than done but moving somewhere else for a mere 6 months in a given year to avoid a tax bill potentially in the millions of dollars is a no brainer, especially if you're paying no tax or far less tax in some other country.

[Danderman123]

3 minutes ago, ukrules said:

 

Just make sure you're non resident in a year when you sell them and you're good to remit any time in the future.

 

Easier said than done but moving somewhere else for a mere 6 months in a given year to avoid a tax bill potentially in the millions of dollars is a no brainer, especially if you're paying no tax or far less tax in some other country.

I sell stock every year.

 

Which is why I monitor this topic 

[oldcpu]

IMHO if

3 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

You have no idea how much I would have to pay in Thai capital gains tax.

 

I have Founder's shares in 2 aerospace companies.

 

IMHO than perhaps Thailand is not the place for you - if this is mostly about money?

 

The world is full of fabulous places - and for many of us, where we live is not all about money.  For certain, my decision to retire in Thailand was not only about money. 

 

I think we can ALL think of over a dozen countries in the west where the capital gains costs will be worse than Thailand.  But if money is the issue - well, as noted - the world is large.

 

Reading this thread (and others) it appears that for many that living in Thailand, for them,  is all about money.  Which is fair, but as I noted, then perhaps Thailand is not the right place for those with such a view? ...  Just saying.

[topt]

4 hours ago, oldcpu said:

IMHO if

 

IMHO than perhaps Thailand is not the place for you - if this is mostly about money?

 

The world is full of fabulous places - and for many of us, where we live is not all about money.  For certain, my decision to retire in Thailand was not only about money. 

 

I think we can ALL think of over a dozen countries in the west where the capital gains costs will be worse than Thailand.  But if money is the issue - well, as noted - the world is large.

 

Reading this thread (and others) it appears that for many that living in Thailand, for them,  is all about money.  Which is fair, but as I noted, then perhaps Thailand is not the right place for those with such a view? ...  Just saying.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion......

You responded to a particular poster but your response is not particularly empathetic to those who chose to live here from a tax perspective as was and suddenly find themselves potentially having to pay substantially more due to a change in a 30 plus year old tax directive.....

i'm all right Jack springs to mind......

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, topt said:

Everyone is entitled to their opinion......

You responded to a particular poster but your response is not particularly empathetic to those who chose to live here from a tax perspective as was and suddenly find themselves potentially having to pay substantially more due to a change in a 30 plus year old tax directive.....

i'm all right Jack springs to mind......

 

I see your point  -  but I was specific to a specific poster - DON'T TAKE ME OUT OF CONTEXT.  Further  the vehemence in posting disrespectful comments about Thailand, when Thailand considers applying taxation that is common in most western countries, frankly, shows the vehemence is IMHO in poor taste.

 

That is not a lack of empathy on my part. That is an annoyance on my part at their disrespect for Thailand - when the world is a big place for them and their money, and where Thailand has other options such as LTR visa.

 

But as you say, we are each entitled to our own opinions.  Clearly our opinions are different.

 

One individual poster suggested such taxation could cost them millions of dollars.  I dare say for that amount of money, all they need to do is a relatively very small amount of financial restructuring to meet the LTR visa requirements.  The 50k THB fee (cheaper than a Type-O/OA over a 10 year period if multiple re-entry included) is a no-brain approach for anyone complaining they could pay tax on that amount of money.   After getting the LTR visa they can then watch to see what happens from financial perspective.

 

Further with that sort of money (claiming it costs them millions in tax) they could easily stay 181 days OUTSIDE of Thailand and have a wonderful residence both inside and outside of Thailand - and easily afford 1st class flights back and forth.

 

Again - the vehemence toward Thailand (by those who claim they have a lot of money) is disrespectful and not helpful for those who are trying to understand the system better.

[topt]

21 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Again - the vehemence toward Thailand (by those who claim they have a lot of money) is disrespectful and not helpful for those who are trying to understand the system better.

I have to confess I have not noticed any "vehemence"  towards Thailand from the poster you replied to or others who supposedly have "a lot of money"....  Perhaps you can give some examples?

The 2 particular posters above have made some considerable effort to not be tax resident so that appears (in their case) to nullify your specific criticism?

 

25 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

That is an annoyance on my part......

We all have our crosses to bear.......

[ukrules]

18 hours ago, oldcpu said:

Further with that sort of money (claiming it costs them millions in tax) they could easily stay 181 days OUTSIDE of Thailand and have a wonderful residence both inside and outside of Thailand

You've got that right, it is very easy to do. I did it.

Booked a flight to Phnom Penh, checked into a hotel for a while and found an apartment very quickly.

Visa agent sorted a 1 year visa for about $500, returned to Thailand to collect everything I didn't bring with me on the first recon trip and then came back to Cambodia for the half a year.

Simple, total cost is like $15k max per year - for me - of course you could double or triple that very easily depending on where you decide to live or perhaps even purchase a place to live. Each to their own.

If you stand to save even fifty to a hundred thousand dollars a year then it can make sense to do this.

[Phulublub]

13 hours ago, ukrules said:

You've got that right, it is very easy to do. I did it.

Booked a flight to Phnom Penh, checked into a hotel for a while and found an apartment very quickly.

Visa agent sorted a 1 year visa for about $500, returned to Thailand to collect everything I didn't bring with me on the first recon trip and then came back to Cambodia for the half a year.

Simple, total cost is like $15k max per year - for me - of course you could double or triple that very easily depending on where you decide to live or perhaps even purchase a place to live. Each to their own.

If you stand to save even fifty to a hundred thousand dollars a year then it can make sense to do this.

If saving a bit of money means everything to you, and you want to spend 6 months a year in Phnom Penh then go for it.

 

PH

[Yumthai]

1 hour ago, Phulublub said:

If saving a bit of money means everything to you, and you want to spend 6 months a year in Phnom Penh then go for it.

 

PH

I think beyond money, for most of us who have voluntarily chosen to settle down abroad for a better quality of life, it's more about avoiding the increasing bureaucracy and control hell applied back home.

[Eudaimonia]

21 hours ago, ukrules said:

You've got that right, it is very easy to do. I did it.

Booked a flight to Phnom Penh, checked into a hotel for a while and found an apartment very quickly.

Visa agent sorted a 1 year visa for about $500, returned to Thailand to collect everything I didn't bring with me on the first recon trip and then came back to Cambodia for the half a year.

Simple, total cost is like $15k max per year - for me - of course you could double or triple that very easily depending on where you decide to live or perhaps even purchase a place to live. Each to their own.

If you stand to save even fifty to a hundred thousand dollars a year then it can make sense to do this.

 

Have you registered as a tax resident in Cambodia, then? 😅

 

Many people reading this are now considering staying 186+ days per year outside Thailand and having no tax residency at all. It might work for some, but it is not a viable strategy for everyone.

 

Some countries (not the UK) even have laws defining default tax residency, so citizens living abroad may be considered tax residents there if they fail to establish and prove tax residency in any other country.

[Phulublub]

26 minutes ago, Eudaimonia said:

Some countries (not the UK) even have laws defining default tax residency, so citizens living abroad may be considered tax residents there if they fail to establish and prove tax residency in any other country.

 

Indeed...and if Cambodia decides that, because you are not tax resident anywhere else, then you default to being tax resident there, they will tax you on your worldwide income.  Makes Thailand's proposals seem rather generous!

 

Do hope the OP has done some thorough reserach!

 

PH

[ukrules]

39 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

 

Indeed...and if Cambodia decides that, because you are not tax resident anywhere else, then you default to being tax resident there, they will tax you on your worldwide income.  Makes Thailand's proposals seem rather generous!

 

 

183 days is the cutoff in Cambodia, then there's the fact that there is no personal income tax filing system in Cambodia at the moment. They plan to introduce it but they're not there yet. It was delayed until the end of this year with no new announcements yet.

Then there's holidays to other countries to consider, a simple 5 to 10 day trip to Vietnam or some other nearby country any time during the year would leave you below the number of days threshold everywhere for the year in question.

It's not hard.
 

[ukrules]

9 hours ago, Phulublub said:

If saving a bit of money means everything to you, and you want to spend 6 months a year in Phnom Penh then go for it.

 

 

It's not about a 'bit of money' - it's about a lot of money and disposing of assets / realising capital gains during a non resident year.

Once those capital gains are 'locked in' during a non resident year they can be remitted any time later, regardless of whether you're resident or not during the year of remittance and because you were not a resident in the year of the gain they remain non taxable forever.

The opposite is also true - if you sell something of great value while you're a tax resident of Thailand then you're on the hook for life if you ever remit it.

 

Also it's quite decent down here in Cambodia, far more modern than it was 10 to 15 years or so ago when I first visited.
 

[JohnnyBD]

33 minutes ago, ukrules said:

 

183 days is the cutoff in Cambodia, then there's the fact that there is no personal income tax filing system in Cambodia at the moment. They plan to introduce it but they're not there yet. It was delayed until the end of this year with no new announcements yet.

Then there's holidays to other countries to consider, a simple 5 to 10 day trip to Vietnam or some other nearby country any time during the year would leave you below the number of days threshold everywhere for the year in question.

It's not hard.
 

Sounds like your plan is staying less than 180 days in Thailand, less than 183 days in Cambodia and several days in another nearby country, then you won't be a tax resident anywhere. Am I understanding correctly?

[Phulublub]

52 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

Sounds like your plan is staying less than 180 days in Thailand, less than 183 days in Cambodia and several days in another nearby country, then you won't be a tax resident anywhere. Am I understanding correctly?

Being tax resident nowhere could very well mean that your tax residency reverts to your citizenship - in the case of the OP, given their username, that would be the UK and they may well find them selevs liable to UK tax on the whole of their worldwide income.  Without knowing individual circumstances there are too many variables to know whether that is better than being tax resident here or elsewhere.  For myself, I am content that if/when the new Thai tax legislation for remitted income becomes fact, I will have no tax to pay over that which I have already paid (and cannot avoid paying) to the UK Government.  YMMV

 

PH

[chiang mai]

I agree, I'm pretty sure a person must be resident for tax purposes somewhere and if all else fails, it will be in the country of domicile.

[Eudaimonia]

18 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

Being tax resident nowhere could very well mean that your tax residency reverts to your citizenship - in the case of the OP, given their username, that would be the UK

 

Citizens of some countries can actually be tax resident nowhere. It is my understanding that the UK is one of those.

[Eudaimonia]

7 minutes ago, Eudaimonia said:

Citizens of some countries can actually be tax resident nowhere. It is my understanding that the UK is one of those.

 

I'll withdraw my comment as HMRC claims, "There is no legislation on this, but you have to be resident somewhere for tax purposes," and "you would revert to your citizenship."

 

https://community.hmrc.gov.uk/customerforums/sa/f139bcb8-1018-ef11-a81c-002248c88d50

 

I think the HMRC support person is wrong there, but these can be complicated cases that require careful planning. It's certainly safest to always be a tax resident in some friendly jurisdiction.

[JohnnyBD]

15 minutes ago, Eudaimonia said:

 

I'll withdraw my comment as HMRC claims, "There is no legislation on this, but you have to be resident somewhere for tax purposes," and "you would revert to your citizenship."

 

https://community.hmrc.gov.uk/customerforums/sa/f139bcb8-1018-ef11-a81c-002248c88d50

 

I think the HMRC support person is wrong there, but these can be complicated cases that require careful planning. It's certainly safest to always be a tax resident in some friendly jurisdiction.

I knew a work colleague who was from the UK, but lived in Thailand. He told me he didn't pay income taxes anywhere because he worked in Saudi which was a non-income tax country, he stayed in Thailand less than 180 days due to his job, and he had no income from the UK. If what he was doing was legal, then it appears he wasn't a tax resident anywhere.

[ukrules]

36 minutes ago, Eudaimonia said:

 

Citizens of some countries can actually be tax resident nowhere. It is my understanding that the UK is one of those.

 

That is 100% correct for UK citizens of which I am one.

[Yumthai]

40 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

I agree, I'm pretty sure a person must be resident for tax purposes somewhere and if all else fails, it will be in the country of domicile.

There is no must, it all depends on your country(ies) of citizenship. For some/many countries being tax resident somewhere is not a requirement to become non tax resident. Need to dig in each country tax residence criteria. Agreed that being tax resident nowhere is not a long-term safe situation for not well-structured wealthy individuals.

[ukrules]

11 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

There is no must, it all depends on your country(ies) of citizenship. For some/many countries being tax resident somewhere is not a requirement to become non tax resident. Need to dig in each country tax residence criteria. Agreed that being tax resident nowhere is not a long-term safe situation for not well-structured wealthy individuals.

 

Yes, in this case the 'Statutory Residence Test' applies - if you don't qualify for tax residency in the UK which can be advantageous in certain circumstances to some people I guess then there is no 'automatic residency' based on where you live outside the UK and you can't even simply choose to be resident in your country of citizenship (UK in this case) even if you want to because unless you go to the UK and put in the number of days required they won't accept you and that process is automatic.

I won't be surprised if this changes but it's been like this for quite some time now.

There are many rules but 15 days or less in the UK per year on average over the previous 3 years is the threshold at which you get 'booted out' of the system whether you want it or not - you're out.

 

[NanLaew]

4 hours ago, Eudaimonia said:

 

Have you registered as a tax resident in Cambodia, then? 😅

 

Many people reading this are now considering staying 186+ days per year outside Thailand and having no tax residency at all. It might work for some, but it is not a viable strategy for everyone.

 

Some countries (not the UK) even have laws defining default tax residency, so citizens living abroad may be considered tax residents there if they fail to establish and prove tax residency in any other country.

 

My experience with NatWest International earlier this year was that I had to provide evidence of my tax domicile in order to continue banking with them.

[FruitPudding]

On 10/18/2024 at 2:22 PM, hotandsticky said:

 

 

It isn't a gain until it's realised

 

Tell that to the western communist countries that tax unrealized gains (e.g. Ireland) or have wealth tax (e.g. Norway).