Is the Tax compliance going to be linked to Visa issuance ?

[Andycoops]

Nobody will know for sure until the new tax changes are posted in the Royal Gazette.

 

It's all speculation at the moment with people trying to 2nd guess what rules will apply and to whom.

[BritManToo]

1 minute ago, Andycoops said:

Nobody will know for sure until the new tax changes are posted in the Royal Gazette.

 

It's all speculation at the moment with people trying to 2nd guess what rules will apply and to whom.

IF there are any changes, nothing has been announced by the government, it's all scaremongering at the moment.

[sometimewoodworker]

22 hours ago, theblether said:

May I also point out the cunning "I'll just transfer money to my wife's name" will just result in her having to do a tax return. 

You may point that out, but you will be totally wrong.
 

The TRD only wants tax returns from those with assessable income over the tax threshold.

You can gift 20,000,000 baht to your wife before she starts to need to pay tax

So in practice unless you are mega rich your wife will never need to file a tax return.

 

that is about £450,000 or $600,000 per year and if you have that kind of money you will be paying 0% on foreign income and only 17% on Thai income. If you are paying more than that you really need the advice of a Thai tax accountant or investment manager.

Edited September 12 by sometimewoodworker

[Dan O]

1 hour ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You may point that out, but you will be totally wrong.
 

The TRD only wants tax returns from those with assessable income over the tax threshold.

You can gift 20,000,000 baht to your wife before she starts to need to pay tax

So in practice unless you are mega rich your wife will never need to file a tax return.

 

that is about £450,000 or $600,000 per year and if you have that kind of money you will be paying 0% on foreign income and only 17% on Thai income. If you are paying more than that you really need the advice of a Thai tax accountant or investment manager.

That may or may not be accurate. The gift may not be taxed but depending on the the threshold they set and the regs they produce on what is considered accessible income you could still find yourself taxable for other income.  They have indicated income does not need to be brought into the country if you're deemed a tax resident and that's the wild card. Your country's DTA will have great bearing on qualifying your exposure. 

 

No one knows what the final outcome will be yet as they are still sorting thru the approach to this. For the complainers that nothing has been finalized and published yet, its no different than tax code in most countries. They often don't finalize code until the year of submission which is 2025 for this issue. 

[Lorry]

6 hours ago, chiang mai said:

Maybe the issue has already been covered but not everyone needs to file a tax return because they already have enough money in country and their pension payments are exempt. How do those people prove tax compliance for visa purposes, simply they cannot.

So they don't get a visa/ extension.

Easy.

 

(Remember CoR at CW? That's how bureaucrats work, not only in Thailand)

[brewsterbudgen]

6 hours ago, chiang mai said:

Maybe the issue has already been covered but not everyone needs to file a tax return because they already have enough money in country and their pension payments are exempt. How do those people prove tax compliance for visa purposes, simply they cannot.

I would think they will be handed a Thai tax return and told to complete it before their Extension is processed?  This could be great news for Thai Accountants/Tax Advisors.

[david555]

Thai immigration is the first / best placed in line who can report / confirm if we are 180 days  a year residing in Thailand and so taxable or not ..... pure logic , as they are the best informed about or presence in Thailand , including partly also for our finances

If we like it or not ....

[brewsterbudgen]

Just now, david555 said:

Thai immigration is the first / best placed in line who can report / confirm if we are 180 days  a year residing in Thailand and so taxable or not ..... pure logic , as they are the best informed about or presence in Thailand , including partly also for our finances

If we like it or not ....

 

Hopefully, the first time will be a warning.  Next year, "make sure you have completed a Thai tax return".

[CharlieKo]

What is it with you people. You don't have any problems so you got to manufacture them by way of something to do? There would need to be a major change in the law to allow the revenue department to collect taxes in funds not brought to Thailand. So far the government have not got involved in this matter and t is the government that would need to change the law, not the revenue dept. 

 

Not to mention I'm sure there are enough hi so's in Government who might not like that idea, of having their overseas profits taxed by Thailand when those profits aren't remitted to Thailand. Odds in favour of this being just talk and will not be enacted. 

[CharlieKo]

8 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

 

Hopefully, the first time will be a warning.  Next year, "make sure you have completed a Thai tax return".

First, ignorance is not a defence in Law. Second that fact you are aware that a tax return is now required for the tax year of 2024. You would be obliged to make such a return. If you have any doubts about what if any tax is due go the the revenue dept or talk with an accountant. As to what might happen if you avoid making a tax return. You could wait and find out but, But I think they might do a full audit on you there are also possible fines and maybe even prison for serious offenders! 

 

 

[motdaeng]

58 minutes ago, CharlieKo said:

... There would need to be a major change in the law to allow the revenue department to collect taxes in funds not brought to Thailand. So far the government have not got involved in this matter and t is the government that would need to change the law, not the revenue dept. 

 

"It is not a law change, but a departmental order, which overules the previous tax ruling from 1987.

Here is a page of all the official announcements and information. The Thai Revenue Department have provided

a lot of useful information and guidance on this change."

 

https://www.expattaxthailand.com/thailand-revenue-department-foreign-sourced-income/

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, brewsterbudgen said:

I would think they will be handed a Thai tax return and told to complete it before their Extension is processed?  This could be great news for Thai Accountants/Tax Advisors.

The rules are very clear as to who must complete a tax return, if you gave no assessable income you don't have to complete one.

[Lorry]

42 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

The rules are very clear as to who must complete a tax return, if you gave no assessable income you don't have to complete one.

And do you think immigration cares about this?

 

(Example: the rules are very clear about when you have to show your bank book to immigration. At CW, they make many people show the bank book at other occasions, too, without telling anyone before. But because the rules,  written and published, are so clear, people may not have brought it. They are sent home to come another day, with bank book.

And I mentioned CoR at CW already: if you live here, but go abroad often,  you cannot file 90 days, and don't have to, the rule is very clear. But CW wants 90days report for CoR. Didn't have to file 90 days? No problem,  you don't get CoR, ie no driver's license.

 

People who really didn't want to stay so many days in a row, do stay here 91 days to get a DL.

They will stay 180 days to be able to file taxes)

Edited September 12 by Lorry

[chiang mai]

5 minutes ago, Lorry said:

And do you think immigration cares about this?

 

(Example: the rules are very clear about when you have to show your bank book to immigration. At CW, they make many people show the bank book at other occasions, too, without telling anyone before. But because the rules,  written and published, are so clear, people may not have brought it. They are sent home to come another day, with bank book.

And I mentioned CoR at CW already: if you live here, but go abroad often,  you cannot file 90 days, and don't have to, the rule is very clear. But CW wants 90days report for CoR. Didn't have to file 90 days? No problem,  you don't get CoR, ie no driver's license)

It would be interesting to go head to head with Immi on this, TRD says I can't file a return, Immi says I must.

[sometimewoodworker]

3 hours ago, Dan O said:

They have indicated income does not need to be brought into the country if you're deemed a tax resident and that's the wild card. Your country's DTA will have great bearing on qualifying your exposure. 

Again that is wrong at the present time. It is being suggested, it is NOT law at the moment.

 

there is no point in speculating about something that is not law and may never be law.

[sometimewoodworker]

3 hours ago, Dan O said:

They often don't finalize code until the year of submission which is 2025 for this issue. 

A change to WW taxation can not be implemented for the current tax year. It probably could not be implemented for next year as it requires government legislation. I till the law is proposed it is just spreading FUD 

[Lacessit]

I guess I will find out in October, when I apply for my next visa extension.

 

I am below tax thresholds in my home country. No tax payable with a DTA.

 

My non-taxable pre-2024 assets are sufficient to finance my living expenses here for the next 6 years.

 

If I need a tax ID, I will get one. I am told the pink Thai ID card is effectively the same.

 

 

[Dan O]

56 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Again that is wrong at the present time. It is being suggested, it is NOT law at the moment.

 

there is no point in speculating about something that is not law and may never be law.

That is exactly what they have said and are working on the regulations for. I never said its the law now but the interpretation has already been changed on the current law. Its not speculation when that is the language they have used. What those regs will end up being no one knows and I have not said what they will be. It is worth noting and considering whether you like it or not. Thats what this whole thread is about, discussion on the implications of the tax changes. 

[Dan O]

59 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

A change to WW taxation can not be implemented for the current tax year. It probably could not be implemented for next year as it requires government legislation. I till the law is proposed it is just spreading FUD 

I stand by my statement. In the USA the tax code is often amended or not finalized until the filing year. How they handle it here no one knows until it happens

[sometimewoodworker]

7 hours ago, Dan O said:

That is exactly what they have said and are working on the regulations for.

That is probably correct

 

7 hours ago, Dan O said:

I never said its the law now but the interpretation has already been changed on the current law.

There is no interpretation change in P161 it is a change in wording. The TRD doesn’t interpret the rules.

7 hours ago, Dan O said:

Its not speculation when that is the language they have used.

It is absolutely speculation until the proposed wording is released.

 

7 hours ago, Dan O said:

What those regs will end up being no one knows and I have not said what they will be.

I am sure that the TRD has a good idea.

 

7 hours ago, Dan O said:

Thats what this whole thread is about, discussion on the implications of the tax changes. 

No it isn’t! Do read the subject.

 

7 hours ago, Dan O said:

How they handle it here no one knows until it happens

You really don’t understand the way the regulations changes happen.

 

in civilised countries (the USA is not one of those) you get at a minimum several months to years notice of changes.

 

having just attended a meeting where a report of high level officials of the TRD and top accountancy firms had talks,

 

the WW change will happen in 2026~2027~2028 the detail of the change is not yet clear, various influential groups are lobbying to amend the suggested change

 

7 hours ago, Dan O said:

I stand by my statement. In the USA the tax code is often amended or not finalized until the filing year.

That just demonstrates that the USA is a third world country in that respect.

Edited September 12 by sometimewoodworker

[KhunHeineken]

On 9/10/2024 at 3:30 AM, CharlieH said:

 

Recent developments from the Thai Revenue Department signal significant changes ahead for expatriates residing in Thailand. The department is drafting legislation to tax the overseas income of individuals residing in Thailand for 180 days or more, aligning with the international principle of worldwide income under the residence rule. Additionally, there is speculation about linking these tax requirements to the application and issuance of long-term visas for expats, which has raised questions about its impact on the expatriate community.

 

1. Is it reasonable to assume the government will link tax compliance to the issuance of long-term visas? Or is this a step too far?

2. How might these changes influence the decision of expatriates to move to or stay in Thailand?

 

The proposed tax legislation and its potential linkage to long-term visa requirements represent a significant shift in the policy landscape for expatriates in Thailand.

 

What are your thoughts on this ?

What a difference a few months make. 

 

Just a short time ago, ANY post mentioning even the possibility of some type of tax clearance document / certificate being needed by expats for their annual  extension was branded as "scaremongering" by members, and deleted by Mods.

 

Now, here we have a Mod, posing that very question, and real possibility of it happening. 

 

Members posted words like "tracking foreigners" and "tracing foreigners" and "chasing foreigners" etc etc.  When other members, myself included, suggested if it was attached to visas / extensions, it would bring the foreigners to the TRD, so no need to "track" or "trace" or "chase" it was still "scaremongering" despite the very obvious simple solution for the TRD in relation to foreigners and making them pay "something." 

 

I have explained the use of my word "something" in other posts. 

 

As I have said, expats are asking the question "why would Thailand do it" when really they should be asking "why wouldn't Thailand do?" 

 

Answer is:  MONEY, MONEY, MONEY, legit, or otherwise. 

[Dan O]

5 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

That is probably correct

 

There is no interpretation change in P161 it is a change in wording. The TRD doesn’t interpret the rules.

It is absolutely speculation until the proposed wording is released.

 

I am sure that the TRD has a good idea.

 

No it isn’t! Do read the subject.

 

You really don’t understand the way the regulations changes happen.

 

in civilised countries (the USA is not one of those) you get at a minimum several months to years notice of changes.

 

having just attended a meeting where a report of high level officials of the TRD and top accountancy firms had talks,

 

the WW change will happen in 2026~2027~2028 the detail of the change is not yet clear, various influential groups are lobbying to amend the suggested change

 

That just demonstrates that the USA is a third world country in that respect.

Your deflecting and just to hear yourself talk to cover yourself. Move along as I stand by my comments and am done with you

[chiang mai]

6 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

That is probably correct

 

There is no interpretation change in P161 it is a change in wording. The TRD doesn’t interpret the rules.

It is absolutely speculation until the proposed wording is released.

 

I am sure that the TRD has a good idea.

 

No it isn’t! Do read the subject.

 

You really don’t understand the way the regulations changes happen.

 

in civilised countries (the USA is not one of those) you get at a minimum several months to years notice of changes.

 

having just attended a meeting where a report of high level officials of the TRD and top accountancy firms had talks,

 

the WW change will happen in 2026~2027~2028 the detail of the change is not yet clear, various influential groups are lobbying to amend the suggested change

 

That just demonstrates that the USA is a third world country in that respect.

Do you have any idea how arrogant your post appears, critically responding to almost every single sentence written by another poster? Can you not respond normally, like everyone else.

[Fortunateson]

On 9/10/2024 at 11:17 AM, CharlesHolzhauer said:

. I personally believe that all retirees over 65 on the visa extension, as well as married couples, should also be included in the current LTR tax scheme.

What is your reasoning behind this?  If you have an LTR, should not be a concern for you. If you do

not have an LTR, then apply for one, if you qualify. Otherwise, remember that “you get what you pay for”.

[Pouatchee]

On 9/10/2024 at 11:36 AM, Will B Good said:

 

 

I suggested this was an obvious thing to do when these changes were first mooted......and was shot down in no uncertain terms.

 

 

 

 

 

same here... but i still dont agree with it. certain cases, such as mine, are impossible to explain to the tax or immi officers.

[mokwit]

4 minutes ago, Pouatchee said:

 

same here... but i still dont agree with it. certain cases, such as mine, are impossible to explain to the tax or immi officers.

Sadly that will be your problem not theirs. With Immigration if you can't provide what they ask in the form they ask they do not process your extension. If that means you have to leave the country, maybe after many years here, that is not their problem.

[sometimewoodworker]

4 hours ago, chiang mai said:

Do you have any idea how arrogant your post appears, critically responding to almost every single sentence written by another poster? Can you not respond normally, like everyone else.

Use the ignore button then

[Captain Monday]

Is the Tax compliance going to be linked to Visa issuance ?

 

 

I hope so. Why would you not want to pay your taxes if U love Thailand so much?

Edited September 13 by Captain Monday

[sometimewoodworker]

6 hours ago, Dan O said:

Your deflecting and just to hear yourself talk to cover yourself. Move along as I stand by my comments and am done with you

Good! Use the ignore feature 

[theblether]

On 9/12/2024 at 5:31 AM, sometimewoodworker said:

You may point that out, but you will be totally wrong.
 

The TRD only wants tax returns from those with assessable income over the tax threshold.

You can gift 20,000,000 baht to your wife before she starts to need to pay tax

So in practice unless you are mega rich your wife will never need to file a tax return.

 

that is about £450,000 or $600,000 per year and if you have that kind of money you will be paying 0% on foreign income and only 17% on Thai income. If you are paying more than that you really need the advice of a Thai tax accountant or investment manager.

 

Drivel. Laughable. The whole point of this overseas cash grab is to nail down transactions like this.  I have friends of this level of wealth who have already looked into this. 

Do you know what this passage actually means? 

 

"For tax planning purposes, it’s crucial to understand that you must not derive any benefit when gifting assets. For example, if an expat sends money from overseas to their Thai spouse and it covers their living expenses, it is not considered a gift. Attempting to bypass the tax regulations in this way is likely to be considered tax evasion, potentially resulting in severe penalties."

 

The bold highlighted aspect is clear. Do you understand the implications of  - "must not derive any benefit."