Game over

[Will B Good]

1 minute ago, johng said:

Around 60 million die every year.

 

 

So one year it jumps to 75 million....who cares?

[gamb00ler]

10 hours ago, Cameroni said:

Praise the <deleted> Lord.

 

So all the hysterics when the pandemic broke out, all the mask fanatics...they were all wrong.

 

Those of us who said it is another respiratory disease, we were all right.

 

And the governments that locked down, all wrong.

It's probably not your fault that your education in science is poor.

 

The nature of communicable diseases causes obvious cycles in the rate of infections.  After a period of higher infections the acquired immunity begins to cause the infection rate to plummet.  After a period of low infections the acquired immunity weakens and the infection rate begins to rise.   The specific nature of COVID (highly communicable and relatively short lived immunity) will create cycles with a large variance between peaks and valleys.

[stevenl]

5 minutes ago, johng said:

There are other studies suggesting that they had no effect.

Please supply a link.

[Cameroni]

18 minutes ago, Will B Good said:

 

 

.....and?

 

And? 

 

Well, if Lord Sumption is right, that pandemics have always been an issue humanity has had to live with, and I think the evidence is more than clear on this point, then the overreaction by many, and we cannot excuse this as anything other than an overreaction, caused unnecessary suffering for millions of people, deprived them of their liberty, destroyed trillions of Dollars of wealth, private and public, and was an unmitigated disaster. All because some people were too afraid.

 

Is this not the greatest tragedy we have lived through?

Edited September 18 by Cameroni

[johng]

4 minutes ago, Will B Good said:

 

Jones...Rogan....Trump...???

I don't know were you got the idea that Alex Jones, Joe Rogan,  Donald J Trump et al.  produce scientific peer reviewed papers,they simply report on these papers  whilst other "news sources"  try to cover them up.

[johng]

7 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

Is this not the greatest tragedy we have lived through?

 

Yes it was but don't worry too much  WWIII will make everyone forget about it ! 😋

[Cameroni]

15 minutes ago, Will B Good said:

 

Meta-analyses and Reviews: A meta-analysis published in The Lancet in June 2020 reviewed 172 observational studies across 16 countries and found that mask-wearing was associated with a significant reduction in the risk of COVID-19 infection. While this study focused on transmission, reducing infections naturally contributes to lowering death rates, particularly when healthcare systems are not overwhelmed.

 

Like the Lancet knows anything.

 

You really do need to stop posting utter dross.

Mask Myth Busted? New Research Reveals That Wearing Face Masks Did Not Reduce Risk of COVID Infection After First Omicron Wave

 

https://scitechdaily.com/mask-myth-busted-new-research-reveals-that-wearing-face-masks-did-not-reduce-risk-of-covid-infection-after-first-omicron-wave/

 

"There is no evidence that general wearing of face masks by the public who are well affects the spread of the disease in our society," Jonathan Van-Tam, England's Deputy Chief Medical Officer, said at a government news conference.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/world/no-evidence-that-masks-worn-by-healthy-people-affect-coronavirus-spread-uk-off-idUSKBN21L2PZ/

 

21 April. SAGE met to discuss the advice on face masks. The minutes to this meeting were published on the 29 May.

23 April. SAGE submitted their review stating the evidence is weak. At a daily briefing, Dr Jenny Harries, said the fact the issue was being debated means “the evidence either isn’t clear or is weak”.

 

Professor Martin Marshall, chairman of the Royal College of GPs, also echoed this and told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme: “there was no research to support wearing a mask if you were fit and well, and there was even a risk of picking up the infection if people were constantly adjusting it and touching their face.” 

 

https://www.crassh.cam.ac.uk/blog/mask-or-no-mask-a-look-at-uks-policy-over-time/

[chiang mai]

9 hours ago, stoner said:

 

Nice conspiracy theory John.  You're going to need to provide a link to this bs story you just concocted. Otherwise it falls into the conspiracy theory bin with no basis in reality. 

Speaking as someone who thought that the covid hysteria was slightly overdone at the outset, but who subsequently contracted covid twice, I now have a different view. My first bout with covid was mild, my second in June this year has left me with massive fatigue and a dangerously low platelet count, neither of which I would wish on anyone. If anyone believes that covid is just another case of mild flue, it isn't so for everyone and it's still circulating and doing a lot of damage.

[Cameroni]

24 minutes ago, stevenl said:

100 million aren't.

 

Well pandemics are an issue that has literally plagued humanity from time immemorial. And people die during pandemics. That's not a reason for the world to lockdown and destroy the livelihoodsd of billions of people, destroy 2 Trillion USD of wealth and imprison people.

Edited September 18 by Cameroni

[stevenl]

"Mask Myth Busted? New Research Reveals That Wearing Face Masks Did Not Reduce Risk of COVID Infection After First Omicron Wave"

According to your link it did reduce transmission during the Omicron wave.

Didn't look any further, didn't want to risk bursting your bubble.

Edited September 18 by stevenl

[BritManToo]

2 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Speaking as someone who thought that the covid hysteria was slightly overdone at the outset, but who subsequently contracted covid twice, I now have a different view. My first bout with covid was mild, my second in June this year has left me with massive fatigue and a dangerously low platelet count, neither of which I would wish on anyone. If anyone believes that covid is just another case of mild flue, it isn't so for everyone and it's still circulating and doing a lot of damage.

If the first trivial case was before vaccination, and the second serious case was after vaccination, I'd be tempted to come to a different conclusion.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Face mask effectiveness: What science knows now

June 30, 2024

 

n an interview for 60 Minutes, CBS News chief medical correspondent Dr. Jon LaPook posed that question to Linsey Marr, a Virginia Tech university professor specializing in aerosol science.

 

"They are very helpful in reducing the chances that the person will get COVID because it's reducing the amount of virus that you would inhale from the air around you," Marr said about masks.  

 

No mask is 100% effective. An N95, for example, is named as such because it is at least 95% efficient at blocking airborne particles when used properly. But even if a mask has an 80% efficiency, Marr said, it still offers meaningful protection. 

 

(more)

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/face-mask-effectiveness-what-science-knows-now-60-minutes/

 

[Will B Good]

16 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

And? 

 

Well, if Lord Sumption is right, that pandemics have always been an issue humanity has had to live with, and I think the evidence is more than clear on this point, then the overreaction by many, and we cannot excuse this as anything other than an overreaction, caused unnecessary suffering for millions of people, deprived them of their liberty, destroyed trillions of Dollars of wealth, private and public, and was an unmitigated disaster. All because some people were too afraid.

 

Is this not the greatest tragedy we have lived through?

 

 

 

I wonder if we could have a show of hands from the 15 million?......Or rather the 75 million that survived???

 

 

 

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, BritManToo said:

If the first trivial case was before vaccination, and the second serious case was after vaccination, I'd be tempted to come to a different conclusion.

You and I will always arrive at different conclusions on most things.

[Will B Good]

11 minutes ago, johng said:

I don't know were you got the idea that Alex Jones, Joe Rogan,  Donald J Trump et al.  produce scientific peer reviewed papers,they simply report on these papers  whilst other "news sources"  try to cover them up.

 

Don't suppose you have any evidence of this massive, global cover up????

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

From the Journal of the American Medical Association network:

Masks During Pandemics Caused by Respiratory Pathogens—Evidence and Implications for Action

October 31, 2023

 

Question  During the COVID-19 pandemic, what has been learned about whether face mask use is associated with lower transmission of SARS-CoV-2 in community settings, and how has it been learned?

 

Findings  Literature review revealed many high-quality observational studies demonstrating the association of face mask use in the community and of mask mandates with reduced spread of SARS-CoV-2. Randomized clinical trials conducted during the pandemic provide limited information.

 

Meaning  Robust available data support the use of face masks in community settings to reduce transmission of SARS-CoV-2 and should inform future responses to epidemics and pandemics caused by respiratory viruses.

 

(more)

 

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2811136

 

 

[frank83628]

57 minutes ago, Will B Good said:

 

 

Hysterics.....?

 

The World Health Organization (WHO) estimates that the COVID-19 pandemic caused approximately 7 million confirmed deaths as of late 2023. However, the WHO also acknowledges that the actual global death toll could be much higher, potentially reaching 15 million or more, when accounting for excess mortality.

excess deaths are not being covered in any of the msm, covid had drop to that of the common cold in many countries, yet their excess deaths have rocketed, nobody seems interested in finding the cause....the UK even chasnged the way data is recoreded thus disappearing 30.000 deaths. unfortunately posting information other than the CDC and WHO is not allowed on this froum

[johng]

4 minutes ago, Will B Good said:

 

Don't suppose you have any evidence of this massive, global cover up????

 

Perhaps the fact that you have not heard of these other studies  shows some evidence   and perhaps  you only listen to

"approved credible mainstream media outlets"  ???

[Cameroni]

31 minutes ago, Will B Good said:

 

Meta-analyses and Reviews: A meta-analysis published in The Lancet in June 2020 reviewed 172 observational studies across 16 countries and found that mask-wearing was associated with a significant reduction in the risk of COVID-19 infection. While this study focused on transmission, reducing infections naturally contributes to lowering death rates, particularly when healthcare systems are not overwhelmed.

 

Like the Lancet knows anything.

 

You really do need to stop posting utter dross.

 

 

 

SAGE stands for "Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies", it is the body that advises the government and has the best of the best scientists in it.

 

These are the actual minutes from the SAGE meeting where the evidence for mask use was discussed by the top medics in the United Kingdom:

 

 

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5ed1327f86650c76adc36f47/S0396_Twenty-seventh_SAGE_meeting_on_Covid-19.pdf

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

 

 

SAGE stands for "Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies", it is the body that advises the government and has the best of the best scientists in it.

 

These are the actual minutes from the SAGE meeting where the evidence for mask use was discussed by the top medics in the United Kingdom:

 

 

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5ed1327f86650c76adc36f47/S0396_Twenty-seventh_SAGE_meeting_on_Covid-19.pdf

 

The meeting minutes you cite above were from April 2020, at the very beginning of the pandemic and BEFORE scientists later finally realized that COVID was primarily being spread by tiny  aerosolized particles that spread widely and remained in the air.  That discovery changed everything, including the thinking on the values and importance of masking.

 

[Lacessit]

7 minutes ago, johng said:

 

Perhaps the fact that you have not heard of these other studies  shows some evidence   and perhaps  you only listen to

"approved credible mainstream media outlets"  ???

Perhaps the fact you don't or can't post these "other studies" is an indicator of their reliability.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Quote

The meeting minutes you cite above were from April 2020, at the very beginning of the pandemic and BEFORE scientists later finally realized that COVID was primarily being spread by tiny  aerosolized particles that spread widely and remained in the air.  That discovery changed everything, including the thinking on the values and importance of masking.

Mounting evidence suggests coronavirus is airborne — but health advice has not caught up

Governments are starting to change policies amid concerns that tiny droplets can carry SARS-CoV-2. And after months of denying the importance of this, the World Health Organization is reconsidering its stance.

 

23 July 2020

 

https://archive.ph/Q5a7q

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02058-1

 

Why the WHO took two years to say COVID is airborne

Early in the pandemic, the World Health Organization stated that SARS-CoV-2 was not transmitted through the air. That mistake and the prolonged process of correcting it sowed confusion and raises questions about what will happen in the next pandemic.

 

...

Critics say that inaction at the agency led to national and local health agencies around the world being similarly sluggish in addressing the airborne threat. Having shifted its position incrementally over the past two years, the WHO also failed to adequately communicate its changing position, they say. As a result, it didn’t emphasize early enough and clearly enough the importance of ventilation and indoor masking, key measures that can prevent airborne spread of the virus. Lidia Morawska, an aerosol scientist at the Queensland University of Technology in Brisbane, Australia, spearheaded several efforts to convince the WHO and other health agencies of the airborne threat. She says that airborne transmission was “so obvious” as far back as February 2020, and that omitting it from official guidelines was disastrous. [emphasis added]

 

06 April 2022

 

https://archive.ph/P2pFV

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00925-7

 

 

Edited September 18 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[BritManToo]

18 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

You and I will always arrive at different conclusions on most things.

Of topic,

We both chose Chiang Mai to live out of all the places on the earth, so can we really be that different?

[johng]

4 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Perhaps the fact you don't or can't post these "other studies" is an indicator of their reliability.

Sorry I can't answer you as it would break a forum rule  and I maybe sanctioned.

[Lacessit]

8 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

The meeting minutes you cite above were from April 2020, at the very beginning of the pandemic and BEFORE scientists later finally realized that COVID was primarily being spread by tiny  aerosolized particles that spread widely and remained in the air.  That discovery changed everything, including the thinking on the values and importance of masking.

 

At 125 nm in diameter, a virus cannot be projected anywhere by itself. It has to be attached to lung sputum or nasal secretions, spread by coughing and sneezing. The bigger the aerosol,  the further it can travel.

How far can one throw a pea compared to a baseball? It's simple physics.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

5 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

At 125 nm in diameter, a virus cannot be projected anywhere by itself. It has to be attached to lung sputum or nasal secretions, spread by coughing and sneezing. The bigger the aerosol,  the further it can travel.

How far can one throw a pea compared to a baseball? It's simple physics.

 

Indoor Air and Coronavirus (COVID-19)

"Spread of COVID-19 occurs via airborne particles and droplets. People who are infected with COVID can release particles and droplets of respiratory fluids that contain the SARS CoV-2 virus into the air when they exhale (e.g., quiet breathing, speaking, singing, exercise, coughing, sneezing). The droplets or aerosol particles vary across a wide range of sizes – from visible to microscopic. 

...

Since COVID-19 is transmitted through contact with respiratory fluids carrying the infectious SARS-CoV-2 virus, a person can be exposed by an infected person coughing or speaking near them. They can also be exposed by inhaling aerosol particles that are spreading away from the infected person. Transmission of COVID-19 from inhalation of virus in the air can occur at distances greater than six feet. Particles from an infected person can move throughout an entire room or indoor space. The particles can also linger in the air after a person has left the room – they can remain airborne for hours in some cases. [emphasis added]

 

https://www.epa.gov/indoor-air-quality-iaq/indoor-air-and-coronavirus-covid-19

 

 

 

 

[JimTripper]

1 hour ago, Cameroni said:

That's a good question. I think masks bother me so much for a variety of reasons:

 

1) They are worn by fools, because at the height of the pandemic top medical advisers said there is no evidence for masks providing protection

 

2) It is absolutely abhorrent to look at, it's like those Burqa wearing people (and I have no issue if they want to do that at home), it's sinister actually.

 

3) You cannot see people's facial expression or how good looking they are, so understandably ugly people love wearing masks.

 

4) People throw their masks all over the place and it's pointless garbage.

 

5) Last but not least there is that totalitarian dictatorship experience we all went through with the pandemic, of which the mask is a symbol

Very similar to a condom.

[Lacessit]

7 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Indoor Air and Coronavirus (COVID-19)

"Spread of COVID-19 occurs via airborne particles and droplets. People who are infected with COVID can release particles and droplets of respiratory fluids that contain the SARS CoV-2 virus into the air when they exhale (e.g., quiet breathing, speaking, singing, exercise, coughing, sneezing). The droplets or aerosol particles vary across a wide range of sizes – from visible to microscopic. 

...

Since COVID-19 is transmitted through contact with respiratory fluids carrying the infectious SARS-CoV-2 virus, a person can be exposed by an infected person coughing or speaking near them. They can also be exposed by inhaling aerosol particles that are spreading away from the infected person. Transmission of COVID-19 from inhalation of virus in the air can occur at distances greater than six feet. Particles from an infected person can move throughout an entire room or indoor space. The particles can also linger in the air after a person has left the room – they can remain airborne for hours in some cases. [emphasis added]

 

https://www.epa.gov/indoor-air-quality-iaq/indoor-air-and-coronavirus-covid-19

 

 

 

 

I am not disagreeing with you. Get an aerosol particle that is fine enough, the diffusion process can be extensive.

 

I am saying, however, that masks are effective in limiting the spread of larger aerosols.

 

Evidence for diffusion was apparent when the Victorian Government designated hotels for COVID quarantine. As they all had central air conditioning systems, they actually helped the spread of COVID.

 

Conversely, the only quarantine facility in Australia which was successful in stopping COVID was at Alice Springs, where each room had a dedicated aircon unit.

[Cameroni]

3 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

The meeting minutes you cite above were from April 2020, at the very beginning of the pandemic and BEFORE scientists later finally realized that COVID was primarily being spread by tiny  aerosolized particles that spread widely and remained in the air.  That discovery changed everything, including the thinking on the values and importance of masking.

 

 

April 2020 was not the "very beginning of the pandemic".  The outbreak began in December 2019. So tell me, John, do you think the SAGE scientists were investigating the evidence for mask to evaluate the spread of Covid by touch? Of course they had figured out that it was spread via particles in the air, hence, the evaluating of the mask in the first place.

 

What we have is the pre-eminent scientists saying the evidence for masks protecting you is very weak and refusing to mandate the wearing of masks in an urban or non-urban environment, except for very crowded places.

 

I can tell you from personal experience, I have not worn a mask, apart from when it was mandated in planes and other times, and I did not catch the virus. 

[stoner]

4 hours ago, Celsius said:

I thought game over this thread as you can't link Bangkok Post 

 

you thought wrong. stop living in the past.