Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[stat]

2 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Guess we know who's buying the next round. Drink up boys.

I was not talking about myself...

[jayboy]

8 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Finally, eventually, many of those people have come to understand that they should have been filing tax returns for many years now but haven't and have decided that it's now high time they began to understand the things they should have been doing all along.

 

Evidence? I doubt whether there is anyone who feels he should have been filing tax returns when there was no need to do so.

 

I'm aware you have been filing tax returns for many years because you have advised the forum accordingly.Most informed people would have considered this unnecessary but it was your call and we can leave it there.However for most resident retired expatriates - and I know a lot - it is only developments over the last year that has turned their attention to the possibility of filing tax returns.I don't know any who believes he should have been filing returns in the past when it certainly wasn't expected by the RD.(On reflection there may be one but he has business interests in Thailand. which obviously would make filing necessary)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[topt]

3 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

Evidence? I doubt whether there is anyone who feels he should have been filing tax returns when there was no need to do so.

 

I'm aware you have been filing tax returns for many years because you have advised the forum accordingly.Most informed people would have considered this unnecessary but it was your call and we can leave it there.However for most resident retired expatriates - and I know a lot - it is only developments over the last year that has turned their attention to the possibility of filing tax returns.I don't know any who believes he should have been filing returns in the past when it certainly wasn't expected by the RD.(On reflection there may be one but he has business interests in Thailand. which obviously would make filing necessary)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Depends on your definition of "needs to do so"...... How about anybody sending 65k a month from money earned in the same year sent and where it was not protected by the DTA - for example all UK pensions unless Govt/armed forces........

 

It has been discussed on here in threads years ago. I would suggest that most, as you said, and as per posts since this topic reared its ugly head recently, were completely unaware or, being polite, just ignored it. Especially with the following year loophole being claimed even if not 100% true.......... 

 

Now that loophole has gone and Thailand has signed up to CRS the playing field has potentially altered somewhat. 

[Mike Lister]

19 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

Evidence? I doubt whether there is anyone who feels he should have been filing tax returns when there was no need to do so.

 

I'm aware you have been filing tax returns for many years because you have advised the forum accordingly.Most informed people would have considered this unnecessary but it was your call and we can leave it there.However for most resident retired expatriates - and I know a lot - it is only developments over the last year that has turned their attention to the possibility of filing tax returns.I don't know any who believes he should have been filing returns in the past when it certainly wasn't expected by the RD.(On reflection there may be one but he has business interests in Thailand. which obviously would make filing necessary)

 

 

 

 

 

 

A significant proportion of the expat community relies on the  monthly income method to extend their permission of stay every year. Not all of those people will be using exempt income, I know from previous discussions that many of those people remit their pensions directly to Thailand each month, just as I do. The threshold to file a return is 60k/120k/220k baht of remitted assessable income, even in a best case scenario that is only GBP 5,000 per year before a return should be filed. Many of those people should have filed a return each year, in previous years, but did not.

[jayboy]

18 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Many of those people should have filed a return each year, in previous years, but did not.

 

But the RD did not expect retired expats to file a return and in the real world there is no penalty for not doing so.Almost nobody did except a few whose motives are obscure (reclaiming interest maybe) or simply didn't understand the system.Pleas for common sense on this subject get nowhere but it's all water under the bridge (unless some genius advises that RD gauleiters will be chasing down elderly expats for the returns not filed in the past). Of course going forward there's a different environment and many will need to file returns now.

[jayboy]

31 minutes ago, topt said:

Now that loophole has gone and Thailand has signed up to CRS the playing field has potentially altered somewhat. 

 

Exactly.That's all I have ever said.Yes there was a bit of Nelson's touch about the loophole especially as money is fungible, but the Thai RD wasn't interested.Now things have changed.

[Mike Lister]

4 hours ago, jayboy said:

 

But the RD did not expect retired expats to file a return and in the real world there is no penalty for not doing so.Almost nobody did except a few whose motives are obscure (reclaiming interest maybe) or simply didn't understand the system.Pleas for common sense on this subject get nowhere but it's all water under the bridge (unless some genius advises that RD gauleiters will be chasing down elderly expats for the returns not filed in the past). Of course going forward there's a different environment and many will need to file returns now.

You don't have to be a genius to figure out that reclaiming tax paid on interest is only one half of the tax return equation reporting income is the other which was conveniently overlooked by most people. Whether or not the Revenue expected people to do that is highly debatable but foreigners were happy to ignore the other 50% of that equation. Now they realise that was actually a very very risky game. The cars and houses that were paid for using current year investment and pension pot income (tax free 25%), many will now realise it was quite scary to behave that way. 

[jayboy]

4 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Now they realise that was actually a very very risky game.

 

No they didn't and no it wasn't.

 

 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, jayboy said:

 

No they didn't and no it wasn't.

 

 

I'm happy to agree to disagree, if that suits you better.

[JimGant]

8 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

many will now realise it was quite scary to behave that way. 

Oh, barf burgers. I think you're the only one who thinks "it was quite scary to behave that way."

[Mike Lister]

21 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Oh, barf burgers. I think you're the only one who thinks "it was quite scary to behave that way."

Well clearly, since you decide and promote your own taxation rules for all foreigners in Thailand, you probably never will.

[Celsius]

Are you all people insane?

 

No work permit, no tax number.

 

It says so explicitly on your extension to stay.

 

Do not listen to tax cheerleaders who are advising otherwise. In the end Thais will deport you under suspicion you are employed,

[topt]

3 hours ago, Celsius said:

No work permit, no tax number.

Actually I think you are insane for suggesting something that is proven to be untrue.....

 

3 hours ago, Celsius said:

It says so explicitly on your extension to stay.

Please show where it says you cannot have a Tax ID no.

[Celsius]

2 hours ago, topt said:

Actually I think you are insane for suggesting something that is proven to be untrue.....

 

Please show where it says you cannot have a Tax ID no.

 

Wow, how clever.

 

Thanks for proving my point.

 

Unless it explicitly says on your next extension that you should get a tax number if staying more than 180 days in Thailand then there is 0 sense in getting one 

[stat]

4 hours ago, Celsius said:

 

Wow, how clever.

 

Thanks for proving my point.

 

Unless it explicitly says on your next extension that you should get a tax number if staying more than 180 days in Thailand then there is 0 sense in getting one 

You explicitly stated : No work permit, no tax number.

 

It was pointed out to you that you were wrong. You write "Wow how clever" Lost for words ...

It would help to agree if you were proven wrong. A multitude of people have gotten a TIN without a work permit.

 

You maybe need a tax number for your offshore bank account now or in the future. In additions several sources claim that you will need a TIN for an extension in the future, but no offical proclamation yet.

 

 

Edited June 21 by stat

[KhunHeineken]

7 hours ago, Celsius said:

Unless it explicitly says on your next extension that you should get a tax number if staying more than 180 days in Thailand then there is 0 sense in getting one 

As everyone knows, a tax policy without ANY form of collection / enforcement is no policy at all. 

 

Many, including myself, have put forward the possibility of yet another document needed by immigration at extension time.  That document being from the TRD. 

 

It's all speculation at the moment, and I guess we will see how Thai authorities will enforce their tax policy early next year, but in relation to foreigners, if not attached to a visa / extension, what do YOU think they will do in order to collect tax of foreigners?  

 

It's easy to criticize the thoughts of others, but why don't you post your own thoughts and put them up for discussion / criticism? 

[jayboy]

11 hours ago, stat said:

You maybe need a tax number for your offshore bank account now or in the future

 

This is true, and there is plenty of evidence for it.

 

11 hours ago, stat said:

you will need a TIN for an extension in the future

 

This is not true, and there is no evidence for it.

[Ben Zioner]

On 6/20/2024 at 8:02 PM, jayboy said:

Evidence? I doubt whether there is anyone who feels he should have been filing tax returns when there was no need to do so.

Well, many of the people who had their pension(s) paid directly into a Thai bank account should have. I don't say everyone as some DTAs may state that pension are exclusively taxed by the country of origin. The bright side of all these changes is that there seems to be some tacit amnesty for indiscretions that occurred prior to Jan 1, 2024. But it might be wise not to confront TRD in the near future.

[Mike Lister]

On 6/20/2024 at 8:02 PM, jayboy said:

 

Evidence? I doubt whether there is anyone who feels he should have been filing tax returns when there was no need to do so.

 

I'm aware you have been filing tax returns for many years because you have advised the forum accordingly.Most informed people would have considered this unnecessary but it was your call and we can leave it there.However for most resident retired expatriates - and I know a lot - it is only developments over the last year that has turned their attention to the possibility of filing tax returns.I don't know any who believes he should have been filing returns in the past when it certainly wasn't expected by the RD.(On reflection there may be one but he has business interests in Thailand. which obviously would make filing necessary)

 

 

 

 

 

 

You keep raising this point repeatedly and others keep commenting on it, despite you understanding full well that there was and still is a legal requirement for people such as myself to file a tax return each year, because my pensions were/are paid directly into my Thai bank every month. Anyone else who remitted their pensions in the same way, using same year income, had a similar obligation and that must number people in the thousands. Please stop trying to denigrate and humiliate me for following the tax law, I'm tired of it.

[Mike Teavee]

11 hours ago, stat said:

You explicitly stated : No work permit, no tax number.

 

It was pointed out to you that you were wrong. You write "Wow how clever" Lost for words ...

It would help to agree if you were proven wrong. A multitude of people have gotten a TIN without a work permit.

 

You maybe need a tax number for your offshore bank account now or in the future. In additions several sources claim that you will need a TIN for an extension in the future, but no offical proclamation yet.

 

 

I have a TIN, never worked in Thailand & my only basis of being here is Visa Exempt or Non-IMM O ("Retirement")... So can confirm, you do not need to work in Thailand to have a TIN 

 

One of my UK Banks asked me for my TIN (Before I had one) & I told them I couldn't be bothered to jump through all the hoops to get one for the paltry <£2 in interest (already declared to UK Tax Authority) they pay me so close

my account if they like (I keep 6 figure UK in there as it's my "Current Account" Mortgage), never got back to me. 

 

MY other UK Bank accounts have no interest in my TIN but would close down my account if they found out I lived in Thailand Permanently (Which obviously I don't as I'm on a Non-Immigrant Visa - QED I don't live in Thailand). 

 

Edited June 22 by Mike Teavee

[Presnock]

12 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

You keep raising this point repeatedly and others keep commenting on it, despite you understanding full well that there was and still is a legal requirement for people such as myself to file a tax return each year, because my pensions were/are paid directly into my Thai bank every month. Anyone else who remitted their pensions in the same way, using same year income, had a similar obligation and that must number people in the thousands. Please stop trying to denigrate and humiliate me for following the tax law, I'm tired of it.

Mike, did anyone sit in on the HuaHin tax meetings - one on 15 June and one yesterday evening and supposedly had someone from the RD there to explain where we/they are; and if so, have you heard anything different from that which we still don't know about?   Just wondering.

[zombie nights]

Mike: there may be a legal requirement to file a tax return but currently there is a practice that for certain people(retirees) the RD do not require them to file tax returns.

What you keep doing is trying to persuade the tax dept to stop their practice and go after people who until now have not been expected to file tax returns.

 

I understand u are neither a lawyer or tax expert and are self-taught. And u seem unable to grasp the differences mentioned above.

Edited June 22 by zombie nights

[jayboy]

36 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

You keep raising this point repeatedly and others keep commenting on it, despite you understanding full well that there was and still is a legal requirement for people such as myself to file a tax return each year, because my pensions were/are paid directly into my Thai bank every month. Anyone else who remitted their pensions in the same way, using same year income, had a similar obligation and that must number people in the thousands. Please stop trying to denigrate and humiliate me for following the tax law, I'm tired of it.

 

I believe most retired expatriates have their pensions paid into an offshore account (often in the Channel Islands if British) from which they remitted to Thailand.It was therefore possible to preserve the fiction - where necessary - that remittances to Thailand were derived from past savings.All offshore money is fungible and in any case the Thai authorities had no interest in pursuing.In your case the pension was remitted directly to your Thai bank account but even in this situation if you had not filed returns there would have been no comeback.We all know that has changed now and we await to see the practical implementation.

 

 

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

I believe most retired expatriates have their pensions paid into an offshore account (often in the Channel Islands if British) from which they remitted to Thailand.It was therefore possible to preserve the fiction - where necessary - that remittances to Thailand were derived from past savings.All offshore money is fungible and in any case the Thai authorities had no interest in pursuing.In your case the pension was remitted directly to your Thai bank account but even in this situation if you had not filed returns there would have been no comeback.We all know that has changed now and we await to see the practical implementation.

 

 

I'm glad you are comfortable speaking on behalf of everyone else and knowing exactly how everyone else manages their finances. I'm also happy that you have such an effective crystal ball!

[jayboy]

1 hour ago, Ben Zioner said:

Well, many of the people who had their pension(s) paid directly into a Thai bank account should have. I don't say everyone as some DTAs may state that pension are exclusively taxed by the country of origin. The bright side of all these changes is that there seems to be some tacit amnesty for indiscretions that occurred prior to Jan 1, 2024. But it might be wise not to confront TRD in the near future.

 

Fair enough and I don't disagree.To be honest I never would have considered having my pension paid directly to my Thai bank account because of the Thai tax implications.

[Mike Lister]

40 minutes ago, Presnock said:

Mike, did anyone sit in on the HuaHin tax meetings - one on 15 June and one yesterday evening and supposedly had someone from the RD there to explain where we/they are; and if so, have you heard anything different from that which we still don't know about?   Just wondering.

Not that I'm aware and no, there's been no feedback that I've seen.

[jayboy]

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

I'm glad you are comfortable speaking on behalf of everyone else and knowing exactly how everyone else manages their finances. I'm also happy that you have such an effective crystal ball!

 

Of course I don't speak for everybody and of course individual circumstances are different. I am also surprised you refer to my crystal ball since I have frequently said that on practical implementation of the new tax policy we must wait and see.

[Presnock]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

Not that I'm aware and no, there's been no feedback that I've seen.

 

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

Not that I'm aware and no, there's been no feedback that I've seen.

 

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

Not that I'm aware and no, there's been no feedback that I've seen.

I thought that with two meetings, advertised with a representative from the RD witht he latest that maybe they would be coming out soon with a final...maybe just waiting until the 180 day mark is past so that it would be too late for those caught unprepared.  I too think that should be a no brainer but then you better than any of us recognize how futile daily updates are for some folks who are just beginning to realize that either it will be nothing or that they are targets and have been since the beginning of the change and for changes to come possibly.  Either way, I thank you for informing me from the beginning so that I basically ignore most folks here though I do read them all.    With so many different countries having members on this forum, I guess we shouldn't be surprised at how different some people think about this issue.  Being a yearly tax resident for USA makes us look at most things in a different manner and in addition we recognize what you and a couple of others have done for the masses!  Take care.

[stat]

8 hours ago, jayboy said:

 

This is true, and there is plenty of evidence for it.

 

 

This is not true, and there is no evidence for it.

That is why I explicitly stated:

 

In additions several sources claim that you will need a TIN for an extension in the future, but no offical proclamation yet.

[stat]

8 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

You keep raising this point repeatedly and others keep commenting on it, despite you understanding full well that there was and still is a legal requirement for people such as myself to file a tax return each year, because my pensions were/are paid directly into my Thai bank every month. Anyone else who remitted their pensions in the same way, using same year income, had a similar obligation and that must number people in the thousands. Please stop trying to denigrate and humiliate me for following the tax law, I'm tired of it.

Why would you pay your pension directly into your Thai bank account while being aware that this practice puts you at risk (I do not know for sure) of having to hand in a tax declaration? Why not season it? To be honest someone with more then 30 minute insight into the potential tax rammifications would have decided to send money via an offshore UK account. In addition you lose 1-2% minimum as you are a getting a worse fx rate by exchanging via a thai bank then via wise/revolut etc.

Edited June 22 by stat