Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[Presnock]

4 hours ago, atpeace said:

Thanks for trying and it is entertaining.  Cheers 🙂

If people did not understand how frustrating everyday life could be, then even if one has only lived in Thailand for the last 6 months, they now must fully understand why they keep seeing  "TIT" whenever someone gives an opinion of something here.  Best to chill and go with whatever may come... or leave.  I lived here in the early and mid 1970's - political-wise, nothing has changed except names.  A lot of wannabee's who think they have the solution(s).  I wish all the best of luck whenever anything gets settled here, after all, TIT and as the weather changes constantly so does life here.

[NoDisplayName]

3 hours ago, JimGant said:

Agreed. But they also want to get a feel for the probability that they'll suffer some consequence for not filing a nil tax return -- or for not getting a TIN after 60 days. So far, we've seen NO consequences reported; which, of course, doesn't mean there might not be in the future. However, I really doubt TRD would waste resources on the chance of collecting a 2000 baht fine. Anyway, you keep reporting the law, and I'll focus on probabilities. That should make for balanced reporting.

 

Consequences (fines) for not having a TIN is a non-issue for the overwhelming majority.  The only time this could come up is in the highly unlikely event of a foreigner owing verifiable unpaid taxes, which would come up in the even highlier unlikelier event of a non-Thai-employed foreigner being audited.

 

There is no method or process or inducement for Thai tax authorities to search out non-compliance.  In the normal course of events, this could never occur in the first 180 days of the year, and the requirement only kicks in 60 days after the threshold has been crossed.  That point varies by individual due to residency status and filing status and DTA's and personal/spousal exemptions........and remittances, which TRD has no record of.

 

I wouldn't expect TRD to release a fleet of BMW smart car-rackens directly linked to the immigration databases along with international bank databases during the second half of the year, in a concerted effort to track down and punish non-TIN-compliant foreigners.

 

 

[Klonko]

38 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Consequences (fines) for not having a TIN is a non-issue for the overwhelming majority.  The only time this could come up is in the highly unlikely event of a foreigner owing verifiable unpaid taxes, which would come up in the even highlier unlikelier event of a non-Thai-employed foreigner being audited.

 

There is no method or process or inducement for Thai tax authorities to search out non-compliance.  In the normal course of events, this could never occur in the first 180 days of the year, and the requirement only kicks in 60 days after the threshold has been crossed.  That point varies by individual due to residency status and filing status and DTA's and personal/spousal exemptions........and remittances, which TRD has no record of.

 

I wouldn't expect TRD to release a fleet of BMW smart car-rackens directly linked to the immigration databases along with international bank databases during the second half of the year, in a concerted effort to track down and punish non-TIN-compliant foreigners.

 

 

Easy for TRD regardless of tax filing. (1) Source remittances, names and passport numbers from bank systems. (2) Source names, birth dates, and passport numbers for stays over 179 days from immigration systems. (3) Calculate potential tax liabilities deducting likely TEDA and customary DTA tax exempt income. (4) Filter and sort records for missing tax payments, start with the big fish and politely ask to explain discrepancies. I estimate that many cannot explain discrepancies with savings or DTA tax credits. (5) TRD collects taxes and fines. (6) TRD bosses are promoted.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

13 hours ago, stat said:

Thanks for your post! All would be swell if TRD accepts that your remittance is savings only!

 

However if they change to ww income things would look close to impossible to declare correctly in case of a brokerage account with lots of complicated trades and capital measures.

Mate - IMO it will be difficult to 'declare correctly' any financial information to TRD under a global system - let alone a brokerage account. Just look at all the impossible BS Immigration requires from us with regards to their forms and documents - and from Immigration, Foreign Affairs, and the Amphur when we get officially married.  I cannot see that TRD will just accept a bank statement made by a foreign bank printed out from an online download - just look at what they demand from their own banks. How about 'taxation records' from your home country's Tax Dept - from January to December when their financial year is July to June or May to April - and getting that in an approved format and quickly enough to lodge before end March?  Good luck with getting all that done - I know mu Tax Dept in Australia will say No - because I already asked - and fair enough, imagine all their work if every taxpayer can get detailed records from any month to any month - they aint gonna do it.  IMO under a global system it will be extremely difficult to provide 'correct'  financial records to TRD for those reasons above, and because under the PIT system in each Province the TRD Officers have little to no understanding or knowledge of how overseas financial arrangements work in each country.   If Thailand goes to a global system of taxation, and therefore taxes are liable on all money overseas, not just that remitted into Thailand, then that becomes a whole new level of difficulty.  My advice from one of those legal/tax companies was that companies get that all done by accredited tax/legal agents (and pay big for it) and that TRD rarely ask for further details - but those same TRD Officers are not those in the Provinces doing PIT returns.  

[NoDisplayName]

2 minutes ago, Klonko said:

Easy for TRD regardless of tax filing. (1) Source remittances, names and passport numbers from bank systems. (2) Source names, birth dates, and passport numbers for stays over 179 days from immigration systems. (3) Calculate potential tax liabilities deducting likely TEDA and customary DTA tax exempt income. (4) Filter and sort records for missing tax payments, start with the big fish and politely ask to explain discrepancies. I estimate that many cannot explain discrepancies with savings or DTA tax credits. (5) TRD collects taxes and fines. (6) TRD bosses are promoted.

 

And they'll be doing this during the second half of the year, long before tax filing is due the following March?

 

Non-compliance with TIN requirements will be an after-the-fact issue that comes up during an audit............of not a taxpayer.......not in the tax system.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

11 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

And they'll be doing this during the second half of the year, long before tax filing is due the following March?

 

Non-compliance with TIN requirements will be an after-the-fact issue that comes up during an audit............of not a taxpayer.......not in the tax system.

Nothing has changed as far as the Thai tax system is concerned - the rule change affects Thais who have been claiming tax exemptions. Last year it was the same rules - technically we Expats who remitted over 60K PA were supposed to lodge a tax return. Does anyone really believe that TRD are going to audit all Expats living in Thailand? TRD have no idea if anyone is Working, Education, Married,  Retired, etc. If they do, then are they going to go backwards for all Expats who have lived in Thailand and have not lodged a tax return for the past 10 years? Obviously not.

 

Going forward the TRD may take a more proactive approach - maybe.  We have to wait and see what TRD provides by December 2024 - until then we do not know - no matter what the rules state - they have stated that since decades ago.    Wait and see how it goes if/when releases their 'instructions' on how to do a tax return in 2025.

 

I hope they will be giving retired/married Expats the same leeway that Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam etc. offers - you are free to bring your money into our country and spend it here - we dont provide you any services and rights or representation - and you do pay VAT and other taxes when buying things.  Thailand taxing Expats makes as much sense as Thailand taxing Tourists - we are technically and legally the same. 

 

[Captain Flack]

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[sometimewoodworker]

7 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I know a little bit about tax because I worked for the Big 4 in The City for several years plus I've been involved in tax matters at clients and as part of running my own business for many years. Despite those things, I have always paid others to produce and file my UK tax return, even until today,, even though it's very simple and straight forward. I pay 180 Pounds a year to my UK tax accountant to compiler and file my return. I also file a US tax return as a non-resident and a long standing colleague who is a tax accountant does this for me. At some point, when I find the right person/company, I may well pay them to file my Thai tax return, in future years and 7k doesn't seem an unreasonable amount to me.

FYI the preparation and filling fee from one of the big 4 is ฿17,000 plus VAT so if you have an accountant who is prepared to file for less than ½ their cost you have found a great bargain, assuming competency.

[Presnock]

38 minutes ago, Klonko said:

Easy for TRD regardless of tax filing. (1) Source remittances, names and passport numbers from bank systems. (2) Source names, birth dates, and passport numbers for stays over 179 days from immigration systems. (3) Calculate potential tax liabilities deducting likely TEDA and customary DTA tax exempt income. (4) Filter and sort records for missing tax payments, start with the big fish and politely ask to explain discrepancies. I estimate that many cannot explain discrepancies with savings or DTA tax credits. (5) TRD collects taxes and fines. (6) TRD bosses are promoted.

Agree somewhat, but a lot of the things that need to be done include offices not within the TRD and that means a lot more work for those other offices and while we complain of extra paperwork yoou could bank on the other offices not enjoying extra complaints about the extra work one would have to do for another office and not get anything for it.  After all TIT.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

9 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

FYI the preparation and filling fee from one of the big 4 is ฿17,000 plus VAT so if you have an accountant who is prepared to file for less than ½ their cost you have found a great bargain, assuming competency.

I have an estimate from 2 tax companies - including the use of a DTA - and their estimates ranged from 70K to 90K.

I think a simple basic online lodgement would be 20K - not one involving as DTA claim for exemptions/allowances as per my estimates.

But as I said before, the 3rd company I asked actually said that because I had no taxes to be paid, there was no need to lodge a tax return.

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

Sometimes you need to be firm, if you want to get something done, deliver results and not just be a talking shop about every related subject under the sun.

Right. Be firm. That's why my posts are so adamant about: Don't just listen to Mike Lister's monotonous dialogue about having to file a tax return, 'cause you have X amount of assessable income, and because it's the law. Use your head; evaluate other poster's inputs on "no reports of any enforcement." Or, if ever enforced, what damage could be done. But relatedly, yes, if you can file online in 10 minutes, maybe you should (but, again, now you'll be in the TRD tax filer data base -- which makes you a bigger target than if you weren't in the data base). Or, worst case, spend a day, hunt for parking, and  pay 10000 baht -- to one of these tax preparers whose only interest is their own, not yours (go back and read about fiduciaries).

 

Anyway, inputs here, in addition to Mike Lister's, are, I believe, helpful for allowing the reader to better make a decision. Unfortunately, Mike views these inputs only as personal attacks and thread creep -- and as unhelpful. Sigh.

[JimGant]

20 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

But as I said before, the 3rd company I asked actually said that because I had no taxes to be paid, there was no need to lodge a tax return.

Could you name that company? I'd like to present them the 'fiduciary of the year' award.

[JimGant]

57 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

FYI the preparation and filling fee from one of the big 4 is ฿17,000 plus VAT so if you have an accountant who is prepared to file for less than ½ their cost you have found a great bargain, assuming competency.

And this, for filing a tax return  with no taxable income, because the law says you must if you have over 120k in assessable income? Come on, folks. Even half (8.5k) is no "great bargain." I guess a sucker is born every minute -- and blood sucking companies will latch unto them. Hopefully, from what you've gleaned from this thread, if you didn't file a nil tax return, the chance of being found out, and fined 2000 baht, is zip, based on no positive reports that we know of. But, hey, if so -- what's 2k vs 17k (or 8.5k). Or -- heavens! -- possible 10 years of back audits of all your non assessable remitted income. Why would TRD waste scarce resources looking for nil tax return violators -- when the big money is using those resources to investigate tax evasion?

 

Anyway, if anyone pays a tax firm to do a nil tax return, could you report back here as to whether or not you heard a chuckle as you left the office.......

Edited July 14 by JimGant

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

Right. Be firm. That's why my posts are so adamant about: Don't just listen to Mike Lister's monotonous dialogue about having to file a tax return, 'cause you have X amount of assessable income, and because it's the law. Use your head; evaluate other poster's inputs on "no reports of any enforcement." Or, if ever enforced, what damage could be done. But relatedly, yes, if you can file online in 10 minutes, maybe you should (but, again, now you'll be in the TRD tax filer data base -- which makes you a bigger target than if you weren't in the data base). Or, worst case, spend a day, hunt for parking, and  pay 10000 baht -- to one of these tax preparers whose only interest is their own, not yours (go back and read about fiduciaries).

 

Anyway, inputs here, in addition to Mike Lister's, are, I believe, helpful for allowing the reader to better make a decision. Unfortunately, Mike views these inputs only as personal attacks and thread creep -- and as unhelpful. Sigh.

I also believe that to be true and always have. But let's not delve into the history of personal attacks, or letter writing, or abusive PM's, or coordinated attacks, because all of that would be very embarrassing for one or two active posters.

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, sometimewoodworker said:

FYI the preparation and filling fee from one of the big 4 is ฿17,000 plus VAT so if you have an accountant who is prepared to file for less than ½ their cost you have found a great bargain, assuming competency.

That broadly fits with what I might expect from Big 4 here. I would expect a small/medium sized local firm to be one half to two thirds of that, ergo, 7k/12K fits about right.

[Ben Zioner]

On 7/12/2024 at 7:34 PM, Klonko said:

Does the TRD not only relate to assessable income from employment, which is not relevant for retirees

Sorry to disappoint but pensions, as per TRD, are income from employment.

[Mike Lister]

36 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Sorry to disappoint but pensions, as per TRD, are income from employment.

Agreed

[KhunHeineken]

On 7/11/2024 at 3:25 PM, Phulublub said:

How many times does it need to be said that the vast majority of expats will have zero, or near zero, tax to pay and this new measure is not aimed at us at all, but at wealthy Thais offshoring income and bringing it back without incurring any taxes?

I disagree.

 

Firstly, many expats remit a significant amount of money into Thailand every year, for a variety of reasons.  No every expat here is living off a meager government aged pension.  For those who are, you are correct, they will have little tax to pay, but I question whether they are the "vast majority."  In any case, even "near zero tax to pay" out of not much money in the first place is going to have an impact on lifestyle in some way.  

 

As for the laws only targeting "wealthy Thai's" that's incorrect.  It target everyone, it's just some will have to pay more than others.  There's no exemption for foreigners. 

 

Do you have any advice for the next generation of retiring expat coming through who has to remit to Thailand considerable funds to set up their retirement here?  Eg. purchase a property, a car, 800k for the retirement visa etc? 

 

On 7/11/2024 at 3:25 PM, Phulublub said:

We do need to be mindful that we follow the rules and understand our own personal circumstances wrt assessable income and DTAs, but that's about it.

I agree. 

 

However, information has not been forthcoming from Thai authorities on how a foreigner can remain legal here, in regard to one's tax liability.  

 

We all know Thailand likes to use the "grey area" in laws, and I see these laws as no different, but for sure Thailand will not miss out on turning a baht out of it.  It just remains to be seen how they are going to do it. 

Edited July 14 by KhunHeineken

[sometimewoodworker]

3 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

Sorry to disappoint but pensions, as per TRD, are income from employment.

That is an overly broad statement there is at least one DTA that has an exemption for at least one kind of pension.

 

Though you are correct in that the TRD regards pensions as income, I haven’t seen them as deemed income from employment, if that were the definition there are quite a variety of pensions that would be exempt as the funds used to purchase the pension did not derive from income.
 

So in short the defining of pensions = income, avoids any challenges 

[KhunHeineken]

6 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I hope they will be giving retired/married Expats the same leeway that Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam etc. offers - you are free to bring your money into our country and spend it here - we dont provide you any services and rights or representation - and you do pay VAT and other taxes when buying things.  Thailand taxing Expats makes as much sense as Thailand taxing Tourists - we are technically and legally the same. 

This tax will be a game changer for many here, who will seek greener pastures in the countries you mention. 

 

 

[Ben Zioner]

3 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

That is an overly broad statement there is at least one DTA that has an exemption for at least one kind of pension.

 

Though you are correct in that the TRD regards pensions as income, I haven’t seen them as deemed income from employment, if that were the definition there are quite a variety of pensions that would be exempt as the funds used to purchase the pension did not derive from income.
 

So in short the defining of pensions = income, avoids any challenges 

Would be nice to check facts before posting.

"

Section 40 Assessable income is income of the following categories including any amount of tax paid by the payer of income or by any other person on behalf of a taxpayer.

 

(1) Income derived from employment, whether in the form of salary, wage, per diem, bonus, bounty, gratuity, pension, house rent allowance, monetary value of rent-free residence provided by an employer, payment of debt liability of an employee made by an employer, or any money, property or benefit derived from employment.^4"

[sometimewoodworker]

5 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

For those who are, you are correct, they will have little tax to pay, but I question whether they are the "vast majority."  In any case, even "near zero tax to pay" out of not much money in the first place is going to have an impact on lifestyle in some way.  

Your supposition is not correct that they will have little tax to pay but correct that a reduction in income will have a lifestyle impact 

case in point

a British pensioner is receiving a pension of £12,000 he currently pays no tax in the U.K. and has paid no tax in Thailand due to remitting the pension in the following year. He now has a Thai tax bill of ฿17,000+  

 

12 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

However, information has not been forthcoming from Thai authorities on how a foreigner can remain legal here, in regard to one's tax liability.  

There I completely disagree. There is plenty of information about how to remain legally.

1) calculate your income.

2) calculate the tax due

3) assuming a tax liability file a tax return and pay your taxes.

4) alternatively if there is no tax liability either file a tax return (many offices do not want zero returns) or don’t, pay no tax

5) alternative 2 if you are due a refund of withholding tax from banks, file a tax return, collect your refund.

 

how is that not clear?

[Mike Lister]

7 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Your supposition is not correct that they will have little tax to pay but correct that a reduction in income will have a lifestyle impact 

case in point

a British pensioner is receiving a pension of £12,000 he currently pays no tax in the U.K. and has paid no tax in Thailand due to remitting the pension in the following year. He now has a Thai tax bill of ฿17,000+  

 

There I completely disagree. There is plenty of information about how to remain legally.

1) calculate your income.

2) calculate the tax due

3) assuming a tax liability file a tax return and pay your taxes.

4) alternatively if there is no tax liability either file a tax return (many offices do not want zero returns) or don’t, pay no tax

5) alternative 2 if you are due a refund of withholding tax from banks, file a tax return, collect your refund.

 

how is that not clear?

"a British pensioner is receiving a pension of £12,000 he currently pays no tax in the U.K. and has paid no tax in Thailand due to remitting the pension in the following year. He now has a Thai tax bill of ฿17,000+ ".

 

That part is not fixed in stone, it depends on the prevailing exchange rate and also the TEDA of the individual. I have TEDA of 560k per year which at an ex rate of 45 equals 12.7 k Pounds. 

[sometimewoodworker]

24 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Would be nice to check facts before posting.

"

Section 40 Assessable income is income of the following categories including any amount of tax paid by the payer of income or by any other person on behalf of a taxpayer.

 

(1) Income derived from employment, whether in the form of salary, wage, per diem, bonus, bounty, gratuity, pension, house rent allowance, monetary value of rent-free residence provided by an employer, payment of debt liability of an employee made by an employer, or any money, property or benefit derived from employment.^4"

Yes it would 

Fact the Thai revenue department rules are modified by the details of the various DTAs

Fact the USA DTA specifically exempts some pension/SS payments from Thai taxation 

Quote

1.         Subject to the provisions of paragraph 2 of Article 21 (Government Service), pensions and other similar remuneration paid to a resident of a Contracting State in consideration of past employment shall be taxable only in that State.  

  

2.         Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph 1, social security benefits and other similar public pensions paid by a Contracting State to a resident of the other Contracting State or a citizen of the United States shall be taxable only in the first- mentioned State.  

So do please make sure that you aren’t spreading false information 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Yes it would 

Fact the Thai revenue department rules are modified by the details of the various DTAs

Fact the USA DTA specifically exempts some pension/SS payments from Thai taxation 

So do please make sure that you aren’t spreading false information 

I agree, the US/Thai DTA specifically exempts US Social Security payments made to non Thai's in Thailand. Plus the UK/Thai DTA specifically excludes government pensions from taxation by anyone other than the UK.

[sometimewoodworker]

5 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

"a British pensioner is receiving a pension of £12,000 he currently pays no tax in the U.K. and has paid no tax in Thailand due to remitting the pension in the following year. He now has a Thai tax bill of ฿17,000+ ".

 

That part is not fixed in stone, it depends on the prevailing exchange rate and also the TEDA of the individual. I have TEDA of 560k per year which at an ex rate of 45 equals 12.7 k Pounds. 

Indeed the example above used the current prevailing exchange rate and because of fluctuations it will always vary, for example today’s exchange rate is about 46.5 after fees. It also does not include other possible allowances.

 

FWIW. I don’t know what a TEDA is

[Ben Zioner]

13 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Yes it would 

Fact the Thai revenue department rules are modified by the details of the various DTAs

Fact the USA DTA specifically exempts some pension/SS payments from Thai taxation 

So do please make sure that you aren’t spreading false information 

Wether a pension is protected from double taxation by a DTA or not doesn't change that it is considered as "income from employment" by TRD. But please be unpleasant if that suits you. But without me. Bye, bye.

Edited July 14 by Ben Zioner

[Mike Lister]

6 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Indeed the example above used the current prevailing exchange rate and because of fluctuations it will always vary, for example today’s exchange rate is about 46.5 after fees. It also does not include other possible allowances.

 

FWIW. I don’t know what a TEDA is

TEDA = Tax Exemptions, Deductions & Allowances, TRD terminology.

[Mike Lister]

7 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Wether a pension is protected from double taxation by a DTA or not doesn't change that it is considered as "income from employment" by TRD. But please be unpleasant if that suits you. But without me. Bye, bye.

That's not entirely correct because the terms of a DTA over ride national tax laws. That means that whilst a pension might be considered to be income from employment, the DTA may rule it as exempt, which would take precedent.

[sometimewoodworker]

3 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Wether a pension is protected from double taxation by a DTA or not doesn't change that it is considered as income by RD. But please be unpleasant if that suits you. But without me. Bye, bye.

You can put your toys back in your pram

Assessable income is modified by the various DTAs. And it is specifically Assessable income that is relevant and covered by section 40

As @Mike Lister has mentioned (I didn’t bother with the U.K. as the majority of U.K. pensions are assessable income) some U.K. pensions are not Assessable income and the majority of USA pensions are also protected so are not relevant

 

please understand that section 40 is about Assessable income.

if it is not Assessable income it is not included. Some U.K. and virtually all USA SS pensions ARE EXCLUDED