Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[UKresonant]

37 minutes ago, Khyron said:

I have a quick question, It may have been answered already, but i'm not going to slog through 38 pages of replies.

 

If I send 3million baht later this year, but am not in country more than 180 days, I don't owe anything as I do not reach the time in country threshold. 

Next year, I am not in country more than 180 days, again no tax owed as the time in country threshold has not been met.

The year after, do I owe anything from the prior two years if I stay more than 180 days? 

 

The only money sent was the original 3million from 2024, but not more than 180 days in 2024, 2025, but 2026 I am in over 180 days. Will I ever owe anything? This is all savings that has been taxed in the US.

 

These are hypothetical numbers and dates, nothing has been sent yet.

 

Thanks for the replies.

Currently if your not over the 179days in the calendar year, not an issue for remittances.

 

But can you be sure you will be under the under 179days, unless your final, (say) 19 days is upto 31st Dec. Thinking of possible sickness, accident, or flight disruption.

 

The pre-2024 savings '162/2566 thing' is only currently relavant if you exceed the 179 days. Good to have a few packets of pre-resident savings, for when you do exceed the 179 days scenario.. 

 

One of the family does 3 x 59 days per year, but one visit straddles the tax year boundary in Dec / Jan, which could be adjusted slightly if required.

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

Not being able to read Thai, not being a member of any expat forums, and not having contact with any other foreigners/news/etc .......

I'm waiting for the authorities to contact me, in English.

 

Else I won't know I'm required (or not) to fill in any forms (in English) or to pay any income tax in Thailand.

Ignorance is bliss!

You do know that while tax returns are voluntary payment of taxes are not so not completing a tax doesn’t absolve you of paying the correct amount of tax. Also that there is no obligation to provide an English version (that there is often an attempt to do so is irrelevant)

 

you also are probably aware of the maximum/rule/law that goes ignorance of the law is no excuse 

 

So I hope that your professed bliss is not interrupted by some significantly unpleasant financial demands.

[EVENKEEL]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

Not being able to read Thai, not being a member of any expat forums, and not having contact with any other foreigners/news/etc .......

I'm waiting for the authorities to contact me, in English.

 

Else I won't know I'm required (or not) to fill in any forms (in English) or to pay any income tax in Thailand.

Ignorance is bliss!

Not ignorance, just common sense. 

[BritManToo]

1 hour ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You do know that while tax returns are voluntary payment of taxes are not so not completing a tax doesn’t absolve you of paying the correct amount of tax. Also that there is no obligation to provide an English version (that there is often an attempt to do so is irrelevant)

 

you also are probably aware of the maximum/rule/law that goes ignorance of the law is no excuse 

 

So I hope that your professed bliss is not interrupted by some significantly unpleasant financial demands.

I've always found playing stupid to be effective with Thai (and Brit) authorities. I managed to not complete a TM30 for about 5 years, and I'm gonna play the same game with tax. And the fine is only 2kbht for not filling a Thai tax form.

 

It's not as if the Thai authorities don't change their minds!

Edited July 19 by BritManToo

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

the fine is only 2kbht for not filling a Thai tax form.

The fine for not completing the form is the least of the financial implications and it is only about ½ the British penalty so quite high.

However the TRD like HMRC can go back and audit your returns and impose tax penalties. So don’t be surprised if the 2kbht for not filling a Thai tax form (no reports of it being imposed) would be a small fraction of the possible finical penalty. 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

4 hours ago, UKresonant said:

Interesting aspect, never thought of that aspect, I can visualize that for some acquaintances, far in the past.

 

Yes, that could be a risk anticipated for some couples, in the event of a fall out.

 

The the previous rule of remitting only savings from past tax years also perhaps  mitigated the risk of 'do this or I will report you to RD' possibilities.

 

(Luckily I can trust my wife implicitly, a spat is when I get the silent treatment for a wee while .)

Ditto mate - all good here too - after 10 years of marriage still going strong 🙂

But some blokes should know this - especially those unlucky to fall for a GF that aint one of the 'good ones'.

[JimGant]

15 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

However the TRD like HMRC can go back and audit your returns and impose tax penalties. So don’t be surprised if the 2kbht for not filling a Thai tax form (no reports of it being imposed) would be a small fraction of the possible finical penalty. 

 

We're talking about the fine for filing a nil tax return, by having no taxable income, but being over the 120/220k threshold for assessable income. Fines for evading taxes is a whole another matter, about which this discussion doesn't involve.

[BE88]

2 hours ago, BritManToo said:

I've always found playing stupid to be effective with Thai (and Brit) authorities. I managed to not complete a TM30 for about 5 years, and I'm gonna play the same game with tax. And the fine is only 2kbht for not filling a Thai tax form.

 

It's not as if the Thai authorities don't change their minds!

 

PM Sertha comes to declare Bangkok Post that he wants to make Thailand a Financial Center, therefore the taxes on the import of capital should be cancelled.

 

[Mike Lister]

47 minutes ago, BE88 said:

 

PM Sertha comes to declare Bangkok Post that he wants to make Thailand a Financial Center, therefore the taxes on the import of capital should be cancelled.

 

A wholly unrealistic aspiration.

[CharlieKo]

For those interested, here is a link for a document clarifying how tax is paid for expats in Thailand. 

 

https://www.expattaxthailand.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/FOREIGNERS_PAY_TAX2024.pdf

[stat]

3 hours ago, BE88 said:

 

PM Sertha comes to declare Bangkok Post that he wants to make Thailand a Financial Center, therefore the taxes on the import of capital should be cancelled.

 

I cannot remember how many times I heard the slogan Thailand will become the hub for (fill in anything). Apparently the Thai government thinks just aspiring to something is enough and all other countries stand back in awe 🙂

Edited July 19 by stat

[stat]

2 hours ago, CharlieKo said:

For those interested, here is a link for a document clarifying how tax is paid for expats in Thailand. 

 

https://www.expattaxthailand.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/FOREIGNERS_PAY_TAX2024.pdf

Great info! Problems start to arise on numerous issues such as tax certificates need to be from foreign tax authority. If you receive a dividend you simply do not get a tax certificate from the tax authority, but from the bank only (withholding tax).

If that leaflet is everything they provide good riddance we are in some deep s...

 

I know this is Thailand so I am sure this is all we will get. Explanation on a primary school level with pictures instead of a definition of the allowed accounting standards.

[CharlieKo]

6 minutes ago, stat said:

Great info! Problems start to arise on numerous issues such as tax certificates need to be from foreign tax authority. If you receive a dividend you simply do not get a tax certificate from the tax authority, but from the bank only (withholding tax).

If that leaflet is everything they provide good riddance we are in some deep s...

 

I know this is Thailand so I am sure this is all we will get. Explanation on a primary school level with pictures instead of a definition of the allowed accounting standards.

 

I think it really depends. As a UK citizen All I get is my state pension. But I do have quite a lot of savings in a UK bank. HMRC have told me that as a non resident they will not tax the interest I get on those savings. Indeed the bank do not deduct tax on the interest.

 

To avoid double taxation you may need to apply for non resident status as far as UK taxes are concerned. Which then means any taxes due on dividends would be paid to the Thai Revenue Department. Besides that if you did have to pay UK taxes, you would be able to show a letter from HMRC stating how much tax was due. 

 

It would mean jumping through hoops which is a pain. But is doable if approached right. 

[Mike Lister]

5 hours ago, CharlieKo said:

For those interested, here is a link for a document clarifying how tax is paid for expats in Thailand. 

 

https://www.expattaxthailand.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/FOREIGNERS_PAY_TAX2024.pdf

There's more information here, if needed:

 

 

[jonwilly]

A friend has informed me yesterdat that it is now nessary to have a Tgai tax I.D. to open a bank account with Bangkok Bank.

john

[jonwilly]

Thats Thai Tax ID.
john

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

20 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Not being able to read Thai, not being a member of any expat forums, and not having contact with any other foreigners/news/etc .......

I'm waiting for the authorities to contact me, in English.

 

Else I won't know I'm required (or not) to fill in any forms (in English) or to pay any income tax in Thailand.

Ignorance is bliss!

Could be a good strategy - many many moons ago an older bloke told me that in a large inefficient/ignorant bureaucracy it is often better to go ahead and then if needed ask for forgiveness, than it is to ask for permission before doing something.  I found that to be one of the best pieces of advice I ever received, and in this situation I can see the benefits in taking the approach that 'ignorance is bliss'.  Unless of course when one is making big money and deliberately committing tax evasion - but not lodging a return when no taxes payable, and pleading ignorance if ever asked why no return - possibly a very viable strategy.  What did that Monty Python skit say "nudge nudge ......"

[TroubleandGrumpy]

11 hours ago, stat said:

Great info! Problems start to arise on numerous issues such as tax certificates need to be from foreign tax authority. If you receive a dividend you simply do not get a tax certificate from the tax authority, but from the bank only (withholding tax).

If that leaflet is everything they provide good riddance we are in some deep s...

 

I know this is Thailand so I am sure this is all we will get. Explanation on a primary school level with pictures instead of a definition of the allowed accounting standards.

 

Yes - only the financial organisation in Australia will provide (maybe) a report detailing taxes already paid.  If those numpties in TRD think that the Australia Tax Office will issue a tax certificate for a non-resident there living in Thailand - they are numpties.  You must be a tax resident of Australia to request a tax certificate from ATO for taxes paid in Australia.  Requesting this as a non-resident is  not supported and I would say nigh on impossible to get even when using a very expensive tax accountant.  Certificate of residency and certification of overseas tax relief - request form for individuals | Australian Taxation Office (ato.gov.au)

 

This illogical thinking by TRD reminds me of those health insurance certificates from non-Thai insurance companies that they demanded be signed by a Director of the overseas Company to Certify that their insurance coverage was in compliance with Thailand Immigration rules regarding retired Expats - a total and utter cluster**** of ignorance from totally ignorant Thai Officials.

 

Putting aside the ignorance - the reality is that Thailand is definitely going to tax the incomes of Foreigners - there will probably be no exceptions or allowances like provided in Malaysia, Indonesia and The Philippines.  The release of this 'statement' by TRD clearly states that Thailand will be taxing all foreigner's income from overseas.  Besides that being a problem in itself, the far greater problem will be proving to Somchai in the local TRD Office that the money you/I brought into Thailand (as recorded in bank accounts and reported to TRD) was not income and/or it was already taxed and under the relevant DTA cannot be taxed again by Thailand, or can only be taxed at a reduced rate.  Just for a start - the arguments over Pensions being taxable income or not, is yet to be settled by us Expats, and I wonder if Somchai in the local TRD Office will view it as income. 

[AdamWest1974]

Hi Mike,

I have joined this site so I can ask you a question please.

That table above is exactly what I have been looking for.

So thanks to you and Charlie for providing it.

I have only just started looking into this tax thing and this seems to be the best website to discuss it.

I think I understand how it affects me, but as I am going to make a lot of plans around my understanding, I would very much appreciate it if you would tell me if my calculations are correct.

Thanks in advance.

I am a 70 year old male from the UK.

I have a Thai wife - married at an amphur.

I live here as a resident for at least 300 days per year.

This year I will transfer into my Thai bank account from my UK bank account about 450K baht.

From that chart above it would seem that I would have the following allowances:-

Pa1= 60K

Pa2 = 60K

Over 65 = 190K

First 150 = 150K

So a total of 460 K baht

I am ignoring the pension allowance as I would not need it according to my calculations.

I cannot believe that I seem to be 10K baht BELOW the number before I have to pay tax. 

I AM NEVER THAT LUCKY.

Your thoughts please would be appreciated.

Thanks

[Mike Lister]

23 minutes ago, AdamWest1974 said:

Hi Mike,

I have joined this site so I can ask you a question please.

That table above is exactly what I have been looking for.

So thanks to you and Charlie for providing it.

I have only just started looking into this tax thing and this seems to be the best website to discuss it.

I think I understand how it affects me, but as I am going to make a lot of plans around my understanding, I would very much appreciate it if you would tell me if my calculations are correct.

Thanks in advance.

I am a 70 year old male from the UK.

I have a Thai wife - married at an amphur.

I live here as a resident for at least 300 days per year.

This year I will transfer into my Thai bank account from my UK bank account about 450K baht.

From that chart above it would seem that I would have the following allowances:-

Pa1= 60K

Pa2 = 60K

Over 65 = 190K

First 150 = 150K

So a total of 460 K baht

I am ignoring the pension allowance as I would not need it according to my calculations.

I cannot believe that I seem to be 10K baht BELOW the number before I have to pay tax. 

I AM NEVER THAT LUCKY.

Your thoughts please would be appreciated.

Thanks

You have nothing to be concerned about, your calculations are correct and you have plenty of room to spare.

 

 

[AdamWest1974]

 

Mike

 

Thanks for your quick reply.

Much appreciated.

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

1 hour ago, AdamWest1974 said:

Hi Mike,

I have joined this site so I can ask you a question please.

That table above is exactly what I have been looking for.

So thanks to you and Charlie for providing it.

I have only just started looking into this tax thing and this seems to be the best website to discuss it.

I think I understand how it affects me, but as I am going to make a lot of plans around my understanding, I would very much appreciate it if you would tell me if my calculations are correct.

Thanks in advance.

I am a 70 year old male from the UK.

I have a Thai wife - married at an amphur.

I live here as a resident for at least 300 days per year.

This year I will transfer into my Thai bank account from my UK bank account about 450K baht.

From that chart above it would seem that I would have the following allowances:-

Pa1= 60K

Pa2 = 60K

Over 65 = 190K

First 150 = 150K

So a total of 460 K baht

I am ignoring the pension allowance as I would not need it according to my calculations.

I cannot believe that I seem to be 10K baht BELOW the number before I have to pay tax. 

I AM NEVER THAT LUCKY.

Your thoughts please would be appreciated.

Thanks

Your figures caught my attention.   

 

I am not sure if this has been discussed before, but for people using the 65k baht per month method for their retirement visa / extension, that's 65,000 baht x 12 months = 780,000 baht per year.  This amount must be remitted and proven to immigration. 

 

Of course, one may have 800k baht in a Thai bank, or use an agent, but doing it the legal way on monthly deposits of 65,000 baht, at 780,000 baht a year, that would see a tax liability, albeit, a small liability, but unfortunately drawing one into the bureaucracy of the Thai tax system. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 7/15/2024 at 6:54 AM, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Not saying that guy is right or wrong - but IMO he is wrong.

 

The Revenue Department has adjusted the criteria for collecting taxes from income sources outside Thailand (Part 2) | Publications | Knowledge | Nishimura & Asahi

Furthermore, for income that is exempt from tax in Thailand according to a Double Tax Treaty (“DTA”) - or if the DTA specifies the other contracting states (foreign countries) that are designated as the tax collectors and Thailand has no authority to collect tax according to the DTA - if such income is brought into Thailand in the case mentioned above, the Revenue Department has not yet issued clear criteria or guidelines to determine whether or not such income is subject to tax according to Section 41, paragraph two of the Revenue Code. If tax exemptions are not applicable, the Revenue Department will need to determine measures or methods to eliminate the double taxes and how to use foreign tax credits if such income is brought into Thailand in a different tax year from the year in which the income was received. The ambiguity in this law contradicts the principles of good tax collection and is a crucial issue which the Revenue Department must expedite in setting clear guidelines; otherwise, the collection of such taxes could become an obstacle to the development and enhancement of Thailand's tourism sector, which is a significant revenue source.

If the Revenue Department pursues taxation on foreign-sourced income, it may bring a small amount of revenue inflow into the system. However, it could impact the tourism sector and employment in the tourism industry, including elderly care services and other sectors that heavily rely on income from foreign tourists who plan to be long-term residents in Thailand. Some tourist operators and those reliant upon the tourism sector may decide not to continue their businesses if the criteria for collecting such taxes are unclear and unfair.

 

Navigating Foreign Pension Income Tax for Expatriates in Thailand - Pattaya Mail

Role of Double Taxation Agreements (DTAs)
Thailand’s network of Double Taxation Agreements (DTAs) plays a crucial role in the implementation of these regulations. These agreements, designed to prevent the same income from being taxed by two countries, ensure that pensions are taxed only in the country of origin. Under the new rules, DTAs will continue to protect expatriates by preventing Thailand from taxing pension incomes that have already been taxed abroad or are set to be taxed by retirees’ home countries. However, should there be any discrepancy in tax rates, additional taxes may still be collected in Thailand, although such measures are not yet officially declared and enforced.

 

 

What this shows to me is that this whole can of worms and every point of concern in it, is far from certain and there is as yet no final decision and may never be until a precedent occurs.  Anyone stating 'definites' based upon Tax Codes or Guides, or as above from tax professionals' websites, is not absolutely correct - nothing is certain and that is the only certainty.  Until TRD make definitive statements about each and every point of concern (if they do), then no one is absolutely certain of anything - other than that TRD changed their tax rule for income seasoned for 12+ months, and had little idea of the downstream ramifications from taking that action (or they did and told the Minister and he said 'do it anyway'. 

Can you post a link or a youtube clip, or something other than your opinion for myself, and other members, to consider? 

 

If what you say is correct, why do DTA's offer "tax credits" if the money is only taxed in the source country? 

Edited July 20 by KhunHeineken

[KhunHeineken]

On 7/15/2024 at 5:49 AM, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I have to say that in response to your "may no longer be a value for money retirement destination" that the fact is that for many people Thailand IS no longer a value for money retirement destination. When I first started looking at where to retire overseas in 2010, the number 1 or 2 in the World Lists for SEAsia was always Thailand.  Now Vietnam, The Philippines, Malaysia and Indonesia (and even one list Cambodia) are listed above them on most lists.  This change started happening after the Junta started making it less attractive for retired Expats (remember - bad guys out). This new tax situation has now placed Thailand last - because no one else taxes their incomes from overseas - every single one of those other countries either excludes retired Expats specifically or provides them an exemption (as long as the money brought into the country is not for 'activities' in their country).

 

Thailand is clearly hell bent on no longer being the chosen destination for retired Expats in SEAsia.  I think of it this way - when a Tourist enters any country he/she and brings with them their money to pay for things while on holiday.  That money they bring in can be in currency, or transfers, or credit cards, or ATMs, or into a Thai bank account, etc.  What sort of idiot country would try to apply income taxes to Tourists who stay more than 179 days in the country over a one year period, bringing in and spending their money - and paying all the local country taxes such as VAT etc.  Well, that is what we are in Thailand - long-stay Tourists who 'report' every 90 days, because that is the longest legal stay in Thailand for a Tourist. If this was 2010, I would be looking at The Philippines or Malaysia - absolutely - planned visits to Thailand only. 

Good post.

 

I think you will find many countries will be jumping on the "world wide income tax" band wagon in the future. 

 

There will be no where for anyone, or their money, to hide.  The countries you mention are behind, and I have no problem with people moving to these countries to avail themselves of tax free living until they implement the same as Thailand.  Even 3rd World Countries will be forced into the global income tax system.  It's just different countries are on different time frames.

 

Times are changing.  Mass surveillance is not just on individuals, but also their money.  Governments all around the world are broke.  They will be chasing every dollar of tax they can get, and for generations to come.

[UKresonant]

4 hours ago, jonwilly said:

A friend has informed me yesterdat that it is now nessary to have a Tgai tax I.D. to open a bank account with Bangkok Bank.

john

Oops that could be a problem then.

 

How could you ever get a tax number, without having a bank account to pay the income into, if it is all from overseas

 

I wonder if it shall affect existing accounts, in any way?

 

 

[Mike Lister]

5 hours ago, jonwilly said:

A friend has informed me yesterdat that it is now nessary to have a Tgai tax I.D. to open a bank account with Bangkok Bank.

john

Inevitable.

[topt]

15 hours ago, CharlieKo said:

But I do have quite a lot of savings in a UK bank. HMRC have told me that as a non resident they will not tax the interest I get on those savings.

I don't think that's correct - I am non resident but still have to declare it.

What you get is 5k plus 1k added to the personal allowance that you can earn in savings interest on top if the rest of your earnings are below the PA.

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/savings/tax-free-savings/

 

if your interest was greater than that you are supposed to declare it

16 hours ago, CharlieKo said:

Indeed the bank do not deduct tax on the interest.

They haven't deducted at source for some (many) years now........

[CharlieKo]

1 hour ago, topt said:

I don't think that's correct - I am non resident but still have to declare it.

What you get is 5k plus 1k added to the personal allowance that you can earn in savings interest on top if the rest of your earnings are below the PA.

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/savings/tax-free-savings/

 

if your interest was greater than that you are supposed to declare it

They haven't deducted at source for some (many) years now........

The amount of interest takes me above the 12,500 tax free sum. However I can only go by what my accountant and HMRC have told me. That is, I do not have to declare or pay tax on that amount in the UK.

 

As you mentioned, I think the total amount is around 17K GBP before tax is due in the UK. I am just below that threshold!  

[TroubleandGrumpy]

3 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Can you post a link or a youtube clip, or something other than your opinion for myself, and other members, to consider? 

 

If what you say is correct, why do DTA's offer "tax credits" if the money is only taxed in the source country? 

There are links provided in that post of mine - perhaps you missed them.  Those quotes are from those websites.

 

I would also point out something else - DTAs are not just Double Tax Agreements to avoid double taxation.

 

The full name of the Thailand-Australia Agreement is " an Agreement for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with Respect to Taxes on Income,"

australia : article 1-5 | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th)

 

DTAs cover not only provisions to ensure the double application of taxation on incomes, but they also provide for taxation exemptions, reductions and allowances by tax residents and Citizens/Nationals of each country. However, as stated by several members besides myself, TRD Officers are not overall very aware of this fact and most believe DTAs only mean Foreigners can only get tax credits on the income taxes paid already in their home country. 

 

[cdnvic]

I just removed some personal bickering that was ruining discussion in an important topic. I have a few things to say on the matter:

 

• Nobody is above being questioned or challenged respectfully. Doing so in a demeaning or sarcastic manner not only leads to any valid points you make being lost when the post goes in the bin, but you risk drawing the ire of moderators who have to deal with this totally unnecessary acrimony.
• If you have a problem with a post, don't respond to it, and certainly don't quote it. Report, and ignore.
• It's not the end of the world if someone else is wrong in your eyes. Lay out your information, and include the best references you have, then let readers make up their own minds. Circular arguments don't help anyone. They just confuse and turn off readers.
• Do not threaten other users that you will report them, or tell them that you reported them. Do not publicly ask moderators to intervene or take sides. Report the problem and let moderators deal with it. We are not weapons for you to use in your disagreements.

 

Please continue, keeping the above in mind.