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[anrcaccount]

4 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

Not really a good example imv.

 

You have purchased soemthing outside Thailand, using a non-Thai bank CC.  No Thai tax implications and how the amount is paid is utterly irrelevant.

 

If your parents bring £5000 (electronically or in currency) to Thailand for you it is either income (and assessable as such as it is outside any of the exemptions) or - because they are your parents - a gift from antecednats and therefor subject to 5% Gift Tax after you have exceeded the 200m THB (I think) annual allowance for sich gifts.

 

That the money may be to reimburse for the tickets you bought is also not relevant.

 

PH

 

PH

 

Correct, spot on.

 

FYI Gift allowance is 20M THB per annum ( not 200) in this situation. 

 

 

 

[Mike Teavee]

1 hour ago, Phulublub said:

Not really a good example imv.

 

You have purchased soemthing outside Thailand, using a non-Thai bank CC.  No Thai tax implications and how the amount is paid is utterly irrelevant.

 

If your parents bring £5000 (electronically or in currency) to Thailand for you it is either income (and assessable as such as it is outside any of the exemptions) or - because they are your parents - a gift from antecednats and therefor subject to 5% Gift Tax after you have exceeded the 200m THB (I think) annual allowance for sich gifts.

 

That the money may be to reimburse for the tickets you bought is also not relevant.

 

PH

 

PH

 

"how the amount is paid is utterly irrelevant" 

We'll agree to disagree, I've explained to you what I think, you are more than entitled to your opinion though from your next point it seems "how the amount is paid" is relevant...

 

"If your parents bring £5000 (electronically or in currency) to Thailand for you it is either income (and assessable as such as it is outside any of the exemptions) or - because they are your parents - a gift from antecedents"

It wouldn't be considered a "Gift" by HMRC as not only would it exceed £3,000 (my dad would be the one sending the money) but my parents would have received a "Tangible" benefit from it. They could bring me the cash & I could use a "Mule" to exchange it for me so as not to show up against my passport... but, we're supposed to be discussing the "Rules" not the chances of getting caught.  

 

I doubt Thailand would see it as a "Gift" either as the money would clearly be a reimbursement for an expense I paid (again, the point is not the chances of getting caught, the point is whether legitimately you are remitting money, and you are).   

 

 

End of the day I was just trying to show a real life example that matched the original question... 

 

 

 

 

Edit: I deliberately didn't mention Gifts in my original reply as the question was about a Loan & made no mention of a Family Thai so here's another (Real World) Example. 

 

Each year a friend of mine who works in Thailand invests £6,000 into his Pension in the UK, I send it to his Financial Advisor (from my UK Bank Account) & he gives me the equivalent (set at XE rate so we both win) in Thailand... 

 

Am I remitting that £6,000 to Thailand (IMHO, Yes I am). 

 

Edited 3 hours ago by Mike Teavee

[Mike Teavee]

1 hour ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Agree with 1 and 2.

 

For 3, do not agree. A credit card transaction itself is not going to be considered 'income'. The only issue is ever the funds used to pay off the credit card. 

 

If your parents sent you funds, that's not your income. I cannot fathom any way that would considered assessable income for you. Interested in why you think that it could be?

 

In a nutshell, if my parents send/bring me the money to Thailand to reimburse me for money I've spent for them on my UK credit card then I am effectively sending myself the money that I use to pay that credit card (in this example UK Dividends from September which if I had directly transferred would be assessable/taxable income).

 

Think about it, if that wasn't the case then I could just pay all my parent's/siblings/kids bills in the UK from Credit Cards/Direct transfers & they could send me the money tax free?

 

Objectively, does that make sense?

 

[Yumthai]

4 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

In a nutshell, if my parents send/bring me the money to Thailand to reimburse me for money I've spent for them on my UK credit card then I am effectively sending myself the money that I use to pay that credit card (in this example UK Dividends from September which if I had directly transferred would be assessable/taxable income).

 

Think about it, if that wasn't the case then I could just pay all my parent's/siblings/kids bills in the UK from Credit Cards/Direct transfers & they could send me the money tax free?

 

Objectively, does that make sense?

I believe you're overthinking. According to Thai gift law (I'm not covering UK side), if your parents wire transfer money from their UK bank described as "Gift to (support) my son Mike Teavee" to your Thai bank account then it is considered as a gift and taxable if yearly amount gifted exceeds 20M THB. What you'll do thereafter with this money is irrelevant to tax purposes in Thailand.

[anrcaccount]

38 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

 

In a nutshell, if my parents send/bring me the money to Thailand to reimburse me for money I've spent for them on my UK credit card then I am effectively sending myself the money that I use to pay that credit card (in this example UK Dividends from September which if I had directly transferred would be assessable/taxable income).

 

The funds your parents sent you are a gift, they're not income. 

 

You're not remitting any income to Thailand. The income from your UK dividends remains in the UK, it cannot be subject to Thai taxation.

 

 

 

38 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Think about it, if that wasn't the case then I could just pay all my parent's/siblings/kids bills in the UK from Credit Cards/Direct transfers & they could send me the money tax free?

 

Objectively, does that make sense?

 

 

I see what you are saying, but yes, you could do this,  you wouldn't be remitting any income to Thailand, and any funds received from your parents are a gift, they are not income, and certainly not your income. 

 

That you paid your parents/siblings/kids bills from a foreign bank account to another foreign bank account is nothing to do with Thailand. 

 

You can see why few countries operate 'foreign remittance' based taxation, as it is typically simple to avoid, without necessarily evading.

 

'

[Mike Teavee]

10 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

I believe you're overthinking. According to Thai gift law (I'm not covering UK side), if your parents wire transfer money from their UK bank described as "Gift to (support) my son Mike Teavee" to your Thai bank account then it is considered as a gift and taxable if yearly amount gifted exceeds 20M THB. What you'll do thereafter with this money is irrelevant to tax purposes in Thailand.

 

Not so much overthinking, I was just trying to show a real world example of using a credit card to pay something for somebody & them paying you the money in your home country. 
 

The original question made no mention of family ties but in this case my dad has already xfered me the money to my UK account so no tax obligations (UK or Thailand) but I stand by the fact that it is clearly not a gift so would be tax assessable if he’d have paid me in Thailand. 

 

I do think the rules around “Gifts” must be a lot more complicated than you’ve suggested, otherwise anybody with parents/kids/siblings in their home country would never pay Tax in Thailand. 

 

[Mike Teavee]

20 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

The funds your parents sent you are a gift, they're not income. 

 

You're not remitting any income to Thailand. The income from your UK dividends remains in the UK, it cannot be subject to Thai taxation.

 

 

 

 

I see what you are saying, but yes, you could do this,  you wouldn't be remitting any income to Thailand, and any funds received from your parents are a gift, they are not income, and certainly not your income. 

 

That you paid your parents/siblings/kids bills from a foreign bank account to another foreign bank account is nothing to do with Thailand. 

 

You can see why few countries operate 'foreign remittance' based taxation, as it is typically simple to avoid, without necessarily evading.

Again, trying to put a "Technical" opinion forward & not how it would work in the real world... "Technically" the money I get back from my parents is not a gift as it's clearly a reimbursement for the flights I've booked for them.... In the real world nobody would ever know (besides my Dad who has already reimbursed me the money to my UK account).   

 

 

UK is the only country that I am aware of that operates a "Remittance" based taxation system so it's where I look to for my opinions on how remittance might work around credit cards (even then it's only for a very selective group of people, UK Expats don't count).  

 

 

Edited 2 hours ago by Mike Teavee

[stat]

On 10/10/2024 at 3:53 PM, chiang mai said:

As much as you might want to talk about other aspects of tax, the one being discussed in which you posted a reply, was about the assessability of credit card transactions, no more, no less.  If you don't have any constructive comments, pertinent to the current topic, you should refrain from commenting.

It was about the general process of calculation of PIT. Why are you always diverting from the topic? You claimed the complete process was straighforward and easy it is not.

[stat]

11 hours ago, Yumthai said:

The OP is alas missing in action... or is he?

No the op is alive and well and posting he is 🙂

[Phulublub]

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

doubt Thailand would see it as a "Gift" either as the money would clearly be a reimbursement for an expense I paid (again, the point is not the chances of getting caught, the point is whether legitimately you are remitting money, and you are).   

 

 

End of the day I was just trying to show a real life example that matched the original question... 

I agree, in yur scenario it is not a gift.  But it is money given to you in to Thailand and, as such, is income.

 

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

Each year a friend of mine who works in Thailand invests £6,000 into his Pension in the UK, I send it to his Financial Advisor (from my UK Bank Account) & he gives me the equivalent (set at XE rate so we both win) in Thailand... 

 

Am I remitting that £6,000 to Thailand (IMHO, Yes I am). 

Agree again.

 

in both cases, it is the transfer of funds from outside the Country to inside that is the applicable event and which may or may not give rise to assessable income.

 

PH

 

 

[stat]

19 hours ago, K2938 said:

Any views on the likelihood of Thailand actually going ahead with the announced plan to not only tax remitted, but global income regardless of remittance?  Thanks.

My wild guess 5% in 2025 and maybe 20-30% in 2026 and years following. But plan for the worst.

[stat]

10 hours ago, StraightTalk said:

Responding to this would only take the discussion further off-topic and away from the point of this thread.

Self censored...

Edited 1 hour ago by stat

[stat]

7 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Right.

 

So is there any reason you didn't make a single tax related post on this forum between the time the multiple "Tax Guide" threads were created by user Mike Lister, and when that account ceased posting?

 

Then, when user Mike Lister ceased posting, you immediately became the most active poster on every tax thread created by him?

 

It's difficult to see that as a coincidence, and that, amongst many other coincidences, is why it keeps being pointed out to you. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Self censored...

Edited 1 hour ago by stat

[anrcaccount]

16 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Again, trying to put a "Technical" opinion forward & not how it would work in the real world... "Technically" the money I get back from my parents is not a gift as it's clearly a reimbursement for the flights I've booked for them.... In the real world nobody would ever know (besides my Dad who has already reimbursed me the money to my UK account).   

 

OK, so if you don't want to term it a gift, OK, up to you.  But it's not technically assessable income. It doesn't fit into any of the 8 categories of Thai assessable income.

 

Apologies for referring to the real world, but respectfully,  I cannot see how it's possible for you to declare this as income in Thailand,  even if you felt compelled to try. 

 

 

[Mike Teavee]

Just now, Phulublub said:

I agree, in yur scenario it is not a gift.  But it is money given to you in to Thailand and, as such, is income.

 

Agree again.

 

in both cases, it is the transfer of funds from outside the Country to inside that is the applicable event and which may or may not give rise to assessable income.

 

PH

 

 

Thank you, that's exactly the point I've been trying to make, "It's the funds that come into Thailand that count" & I was trying to answer on the grounds of it being "Technically Taxable" rather than the "Taxable in Reality" 

 

 

Example my mate who I "Loan" £6,000 to in the UK, none of the money he repays hits my bank account in Thailand (6 years ago we agreed that he would "Pay it of" on things like couple's weekends/dinner, me & him having a beer) Works for him as he gets to spread the "Debt" out over 4-6 months, works for me as I write the money off the moment it's gone so feels like free weekends away/dinners/drinks (I do know it's not really).

 

But if asked the question, & answering honestly, I still believe that "Technically" I am remitting that £6K to Thailand - Practically can't see anyway they could prove it!

 

 

[Mike Teavee]

16 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

OK, so if you don't want to term it a gift, OK, up to you.  But it's not technically assessable income. It doesn't fit into any of the 8 categories of Thai assessable income.

 

Apologies for referring to the real world, but respectfully,  I cannot see how it's possible for you to declare this as income in Thailand,  even if you felt compelled to try. 

 

 

Sorry... I thought I'd explained my thinking clearly... 

 

IMHO, my parents remitting the money (To me in Thailand) to pay for their flights meant that the money (UK Dividends from last month, clearly Taxable if remitted to Thailand) to pay the credit card for those flights was assessable. 

 

Can I ask which part of this doesn't feel right to you?

[Again, I'm talking about Technically & not what happens in the real world].

 

And can I ask why you think "Income from UK Dividends" doesn't fit into the "8 categories of Thai Assessable Income"

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

[stat]

2 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

 

"how the amount is paid is utterly irrelevant" 

We'll agree to disagree, I've explained to you what I think, you are more than entitled to your opinion though from your next point it seems "how the amount is paid" is relevant...

 

"If your parents bring £5000 (electronically or in currency) to Thailand for you it is either income (and assessable as such as it is outside any of the exemptions) or - because they are your parents - a gift from antecedents"

It wouldn't be considered a "Gift" by HMRC as not only would it exceed £3,000 (my dad would be the one sending the money) but my parents would have received a "Tangible" benefit from it. They could bring me the cash & I could use a "Mule" to exchange it for me so as not to show up against my passport... but, we're supposed to be discussing the "Rules" not the chances of getting caught.  

 

I doubt Thailand would see it as a "Gift" either as the money would clearly be a reimbursement for an expense I paid (again, the point is not the chances of getting caught, the point is whether legitimately you are remitting money, and you are).   

 

 

End of the day I was just trying to show a real life example that matched the original question... 

 

 

 

 

Edit: I deliberately didn't mention Gifts in my original reply as the question was about a Loan & made no mention of a Family Thai so here's another (Real World) Example. 

 

Each year a friend of mine who works in Thailand invests £6,000 into his Pension in the UK, I send it to his Financial Advisor (from my UK Bank Account) & he gives me the equivalent (set at XE rate so we both win) in Thailand... 

 

Am I remitting that £6,000 to Thailand (IMHO, Yes I am). 

 

A real gift should be fine! It could also be the payback of a loan you gave them beforehand. Both should be tax free in TH.

[anrcaccount]

8 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Sorry... I thought I'd explained my thinking clearly... 

 

IMHO, my parents remitting the money (To me in Thailand) to pay for their flights meant that the money (UK Dividends from last month, clearly Taxable if remitted to Thailand) to pay the credit card for those flights was assessable. 

 

Can I ask which part of this doesn't feel right to you?

[Again, I'm talking about Technically & not what happens in the real world].

 

Because technically the funds remitted to Thailand did not come from you. 

 

They came from your parents. Your UK dividend income remained in the UK.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

And can I ask why you think "Income from UK Dividends" doesn't fit into the "8 categories of Thai Assessable Income"

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

See above. You never remitted the dividend income. 

 

There's no income category for "my parents paying back an air ticket I bought for them". It is income tax. "Spending"  is not assessable income. 

 

 

[Mike Teavee]

35 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Because technically the funds remitted to Thailand did not come from you. 

 

They came from your parents. Your UK dividend income remained in the UK.

 

 

 

See above. You never remitted the dividend income. 

 

There's no income category for "my parents paying back an air ticket I bought for them". It is income tax. "Spending"  is not assessable income. 

 

 

I don't think you've understood anything I've try to say so I'll leave you to it,

 

There's a Pidgeon waiting for a chess game... 

Edited 21 minutes ago by Mike Teavee

[stat]

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

Again, trying to put a "Technical" opinion forward & not how it would work in the real world... "Technically" the money I get back from my parents is not a gift as it's clearly a reimbursement for the flights I've booked for them.... In the real world nobody would ever know (besides my Dad who has already reimbursed me the money to my UK account).   

 

 

UK is the only country that I am aware of that operates a "Remittance" based taxation system so it's where I look to for my opinions on how remittance might work around credit cards (even then it's only for a very selective group of people, UK Expats don't count).  

 

 

If you have a paper trail like you paid 1802.66 GBP in flight tickets and your parents transferred you the exact amount that should be OK. But why not use your parents CC right away when you book the tickets?

 

I think purely looking at theory does not help much as we are talking about TH and the real world implications are/could be very different. Remember the remittance based taxation before 2024 if monies transfered in the same year. Rarely if ever enforced/checked.

[stat]

On 10/10/2024 at 3:06 PM, chiang mai said:

So the expat remitted 50,000 Pounds to Thailand in July that year. In the following January he filed a tax return that reflected 50k Pounds of assessable income, converted to THB by the bank as it was received, at a rate of 43 baht per Pound. Oh no says the TRD, you can't use the actual exchange rate, you have to use the year end rate which is an average blah blah blah.

 

Really? I mean really?

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/kormor/eng/NOOF_Exchange_Rate.pdf

Great link thanks for that!

 

This should cover the majority of cases if the monies are exchanged in TH at least.

[Mike Teavee]

30 minutes ago, stat said:

If you have a paper trail like you paid 1802.66 GBP in flight tickets and your parents transferred you the exact amount that should be OK. But why not use your parents CC right away when you book the tickets?

 

I think purely looking at theory does not help much as we are talking about TH and the real world implications are/could be very different. Remember the remittance based taxation before 2024 if monies transfered in the same year. Rarely if ever enforced/checked.

 

My parents are Octogenarian (80) & Septuagenarian (75) & are not confident in paying that sort of money (£4,500 not sure where you got £1802.66 from) on their credit cards so asked their Son (who's done 38 years in Banking , IT never a Banker & lived in Asia for 16 years) to book it for them 🙂

 

That aside, this whole conversation should only be about theory, what you choose to do in reality is literally you choosing how to "Interpret the Rules". 

 

 

Edited 16 minutes ago by Mike Teavee