Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[Thaindrew]

7 minutes ago, JimGant said:

All are NOT assessable. The DTA dictates which income remittances are assessable -- and which are NOT.

I have only read the UK DTA but the word "assessable" (assessable or non-assessable) is not found in the document once, it only states what can be "taxed" and by which country, the DTA is one way of claiming funds that are assessed should not be taxed, Thai RD data only comes from CRS, it tells them your remittances, it doesn't say which remittances are accessible or not (CRS doesn't know the detail of the funds behind every remittance, it knows income and remittance values), that will be the point of the tax return and any follow up that Thai RD conduct.  

[Bluetongue]

17 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Not "if" just "when." 

 

So why so dismissive in a previous post? 

 

Not to my knowledge, but it's not 2025 yet, is it? 

 

In the same way you are ushered to the overstay desk when they know you have overstayed your tourist visa, it's entirely possible you will be ushered to a TRD desk in the future, after staying more than 180 days inside Thailand.  This is just a hypothetical, but the infrastructure for immigration counting the days foreigners are in Thailand is already in place at the boarders, and no, the immigration officer doesn't look at a calendar and count every day, for every foreigner, a computer does it.  

 

In the same way they want their 500 baht a day for a tourist overstay, they simply might want 500 baht at a boarder from a tax resident for a clearance certificate, should they not have one.  Who knows?  

 

I rule nothing out when it comes to Thailand, the Thai government, foreigners, and money. 

 

No need for you to "demand" it from them, because they are most likely going to "demand" it from you. See the above.  

So in your previous post you said

”Did you ever consider you MAY need a document from the TRD showing your pension is a government service pension, thus covered under a DTA? ”

 

now your saying instead of me needing it from them, they are going to demand it off me. Which is it? You’re being quite argumentative over a really quite benign couple of posts. But to answer you I have sufficient information that I can access off my phone to verify the source of my pension. In the unlikely event that I have to show some clerk from the TRD this at the airport which you seem to think will be next year. I just don’t agree with you that it is this close. Are you suggesting that they will force people to lodge a return at the airport, or more simply just pay a large fine. If they do this they will have to announce it categorically in advance. 

[Surasak]

This is so old hat, LAST MAY!!??

News is within the last few minutes or an hour or two!!??

This is a waste of time and effort.

 

[Talon]

1 hour ago, bkk6060 said:

From The Thaiger the owner of this site.

At 12:30 This guy says ATM and CC are not ¨currently¨ taxable.  So, if if knows what he is talking about any current statements that they are in fact taxable, seem false.  

 

 

Thanks for the video! 

 

According to what was currently discussed in the video, ATM withdrawals from a foreign bank are not taxed. The DTA with the US means that my Social Security and state pension would not be taxed.  If the TRD decides that my state pension is private, I'd only be taxed on funds that are brought here.

 

The video provided lots of answers for me.

 

But I realize that all of that could change in the blink of an eye.  TIT. 

[chiang mai]

28 minutes ago, Talon said:

 

 

Thanks for the video! 

 

According to what was currently discussed in the video, ATM withdrawals from a foreign bank are not taxed. The DTA with the US means that my Social Security and state pension would not be taxed.  If the TRD decides that my state pension is private, I'd only be taxed on funds that are brought here.

 

The video provided lots of answers for me.

 

But I realize that all of that could change in the blink of an eye.  TIT. 

That video has been poo pooh'ed wide and far, some  of the information in it is simply unreliable, as is the so called tax expert.

[Presnock]

5 hours ago, chiang mai said:

We have members who want me to change my name, my writing style and now one who wants less use of authoritative confusing words. I don't believe in 18 years here I have ever asked another poster to change those things about themselves, I've simply asked them to clarify points they made. Is that asking too much of others.

 

If posters think that anything I post is official information, I have to fall back on forum rules, tradition and common sense. Who would take first line legal, medical or tax advice as gospel, when it's written on a social network forum! I would take first line medical advice from Sheryl and Crossy for electrical information, because I trust their track record and knowledge, anyone else I probably wouldn't.......don't other members do similar!

 

Lastly, no, this is not my daily job, it's a fill in activity or diversion whilst I do two other main tasks most days, the three things complement each other.

Totally agree - all we see here I consider the source, then I go research it myself.  I don't ever link even if I am quoting something controversial.  I mention where it came from but if anyone is really interested then they can google it themselves.  I don't want anyone quoting ME as an official source as who knows what to believe nowadays.  Just look at the candidates for President and VP of the US - nothing but lies from both sides.  A scary situation as one will be the leader of the USA!

[ujayujay]

Just explain that pensioners from certain countries are liable to pay taxes on their old-age pensions! There is no tax refund. Why do you always make it so complicated?

[Johno57]

I think we must realise that the thai treasury are going through the process of organising some very distastful rules at the moment that may come into law next year because they are  having major financial problems  because the country is broke & it does not concern them what any foreigners think & certainly not what the french think about it...at the moment it is a remittance tax as of January 24 but next year looks like moving to the world wide tax which would be devastating to foreigners.. the one thing you have going for you is the 6 month rule which also could come under scrutiny in the future..so every thing is irrelevent really as you do not matter to the Thais only your money does...and you should take relevence from the fact that they most probably will link your  history to  your visa renewals & they have stated that non compliance will lead to fines , double tax liability & even jail terms in some extreme cases..so getting professional advice is the way to go rather than just thinking this will all disappear into the sunset..

Edited October 16 by Johno57

[Ricardo]

2 hours ago, ujayujay said:

Just explain that pensioners from certain countries are liable to pay taxes on their old-age pensions! There is no tax refund. Why do you always make it so complicated?

I politely disagree, I think that statement of yours above is over-simplified, I currently believe those old-age pensions might still only be liable to Thai tax if/when they were being remitted or paid-out in Thailand. 

 

Although they may, or may not, be taxable elsewhere.  Which is a whole other discussion.

 

It is a complicated situation, and there is still only limited-information available, from official Thai-sources  ...  we just have to wait & see, how it is actually implemented January-March next year, for the Thai tax-year 2024.  Knowing Thailand, it may well be dropped  or not-enforced, without being officially withdrawn.

 

 

[wordchild]

1 minute ago, wordchild said:

On 9/30/2024 at 2:43 PM, stat said:

 

From a wider perspective its really difficult to see that Thailand has much to gain from a remittance tax on its own, in terms of the net financial benefit to the country.

At least as far as expats are concerned we bring funds in for a variety of reasons but the linking factor is it’s money we intend to spend or invest , one way or another, in the country. 
  Eg 1) daily living -finds its way into the tax system, one way or another.

        2) purchase or rent somewhere to live, again moves funds through the system into the government coffers

      3) travel and tourism activities, again some of it should generate tax revenue.

 

the deeper problem in the country is the inefficiency of  tax collection in certain sectors and especially the ease of avoidance within the “black economy “.

 

It seems to me, that all this remittance tax will do (without addressing the fundamental problem above)is reduced the flows of funds into the country, and hence lowering the total tax take.

 

I think this whole thing has been poorly thought through , and I would not be surprised to see it walked back over the next few years.

 

[Phulublub]

20 minutes ago, Ricardo said:

I politely disagree, I think that statement of yours above is over-simplified, I currently believe those old-age pensions might still only be liable to Thai tax if/when they were being remitted or paid-out in Thailand. 

 

Although they may, or may not, be taxable elsewhere.  Which is a whole other discussion.

 

It is a complicated situation, and there is still only limited-information available, from official Thai-sources  ...  we just have to wait & see, how it is actually implemented January-March next year, for the Thai tax-year 2024.  Knowing Thailand, it may well be dropped  or not-enforced, without being officially withdrawn.

 

 

It is a given that any and all income that is not remitted to Thailand is in no way laible to any form of Thai tax.  If Worldwide Income comes about that will change - bu that is not the current situation.

 

PH

[Talon]

3 minutes ago, wordchild said:

From a wider perspective its really difficult to see that Thailand has much to gain from a remittance tax on its own, in terms of the net financial benefit to the country.

At least as far as expats are concerned we bring funds in for a variety of reasons but the linking factor is it’s money we intend to spend or invest , one way or another, in the country. 
  Eg 1) daily living -finds its way into the tax system, one way or another.

        2) purchase or rent somewhere to live, again moves funds through the system into the government coffers

      3) travel and tourism activities, again some of it should generate tax revenue.

 

the deeper problem in the country is the inefficiency of  tax collection in certain sectors and especially the ease of avoidance within the “black economy “.

 

It seems to me, that all this remittance tax will do (without addressing the fundamental problem above)is reduced the flows of funds into the country, and hence lowering the total tax take.

 

I think this whole thing has been poorly thought through , and I would not be surprised to see it walked back over the next few years.

 

 

I said as much.

 

Newton's Third Law: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

 

People will change their behavior as the tax rates are changed.

 

The spending behavior of foreigners will change (and is already changing).

 

- Foreigners will leave and move elsewhere

- Foreigners will spend less than 180 days in Thailand resulting in spending less and not owing any tax

- Foreigners who stay will bring less money to Thailand

- Foreigners who stay will make budget cuts and spend less money in Thailand, which will negatively impact VAT tax revenues for the government

- Foreigners will try and avoid it through various methods/loopholes

 

This happens in every country when tax laws change and impact people negatively.

[Phulublub]

10 minutes ago, Talon said:

 

I said as much.

 

Newton's Third Law: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

 

People will change their behavior as the tax rates are changed.

 

The spending behavior of foreigners will change (and is already changing).

 

- Foreigners will leave and move elsewhere

- Foreigners will spend less than 180 days in Thailand resulting in spending less and not owing any tax

- Foreigners who stay will bring less money to Thailand

- Foreigners who stay will make budget cuts and spend less money in Thailand, which will negatively impact VAT tax revenues for the government

- Foreigners will try and avoid it through various methods/loopholes

 

This happens in every country when tax laws change and impact people negatively.

This - and other posts - again implies that we are the targets of these new measures; that the Thai authorities have us in their sigts as the means of raising vast quantities of extra tax.  I do not believe this is the case.  The measure is aimed at Thais who earn foreign income and send it home - previously seasoning for a year to avoid any tax.  That we may be caught as well is merely a by priduct.

 

Considering that many of us will have income that is wholly or mainly exempt through DTA exemptions (eg US SS, UK and other Government Service pensions) and that other income will already be taxed by "home" countries, there will be very little extra income for the Thai Government to chase, and equally for us, collectively, to pay.  Odf course, there will be outliers and anomolies, but in the main - a bit of a nothing burger except for any additional paperwork needed.

 

PH

 

PH

[offset]

Will the UK and Thai tax years being different create a problem with the DTA

[chiang mai]

21 minutes ago, offset said:

Will the UK and Thai tax years being different create a problem with the DTA

Not really. The UK ends 5 April whereas Thailand filing period ends 31 March, a five day difference. 

[Madgee]

4 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Not really. The UK ends 5 April whereas Thailand filing period ends 31 March, a five day difference. 

The UK tax year ends on the 5th of April.

The Thai tax year ends on the 31st of December. 

That's over a 4 month difference. Filing period is not part of the tax year. 

[offset]

8 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Not really. The UK ends 5 April whereas Thailand filing period ends 31 March, a five day difference. 

I think you will find that March 31 is the last date to file for tax, the Thai tax year ends 31 December

[Bluetongue]

How many wealthy Thais with overseas assets and income are there ?  How many old farang are here subsisting on adequate incomes from their previous country. I think A beats B by a country mile both in numbers and amount potentially owing. 

[Talon]

51 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

This - and other posts - again implies that we are the targets of these new measures; that the Thai authorities have us in their sigts as the means of raising vast quantities of extra tax.  I do not believe this is the case.  The measure is aimed at Thais who earn foreign income and send it home - previously seasoning for a year to avoid any tax.

 

Money is the target, and I know that the initial target was wealthy Thai citizens escaping tax.

 

I'm simply stating what occurs everywhere taxes are imposed -- regardless of who is the target. Behaviors of those affected will change.  People with critical thinking skills and experiences in other countries with taxation are well aware of  how taxation creeps along taking a little bit here, a little bit there, and the tax slowly expands.

I have already adjusted my behavior in anticipation of the unknown, and I know others who have done so as well.

 

As always, best wishes and good luck to everyone.

[anrcaccount]

1 hour ago, wordchild said:

From a wider perspective its really difficult to see that Thailand has much to gain from a remittance tax on its own, in terms of the net financial benefit to the country.

At least as far as expats are concerned we bring funds in for a variety of reasons but the linking factor is it’s money we intend to spend or invest , one way or another, in the country. 
  Eg 1) daily living -finds its way into the tax system, one way or another.

        2) purchase or rent somewhere to live, again moves funds through the system into the government coffers

      3) travel and tourism activities, again some of it should generate tax revenue.

 

the deeper problem in the country is the inefficiency of  tax collection in certain sectors and especially the ease of avoidance within the “black economy “.

 

It seems to me, that all this remittance tax will do (without addressing the fundamental problem above)is reduced the flows of funds into the country, and hence lowering the total tax take.

 

I think this whole thing has been poorly thought through , and I would not be surprised to see it walked back over the next few years.

 

 

Well said.

 

There is good reason that the concept of "remittance" tax is present in very few countries in the world.

 

Unworkable, unenforceable, illogical. 

 

 

 

[chiang mai]

31 minutes ago, offset said:

I think you will find that March 31 is the last date to file for tax, the Thai tax year ends 31 December

 

33 minutes ago, Madgee said:

The UK tax year ends on the 5th of April.

The Thai tax year ends on the 31st of December. 

That's over a 4 month difference. Filing period is not part of the tax year. 

Yes, I am aware of those dates. The Thai Revenue permits an extension past 31 March, for people who file their return electronically, I think it is until 8 April.

 

The point of all of this is that by end March, early April, UK expats will be in a position to file ther Thai and UK returns with current and complete data. The poster asked if the overlapping years presented a problem and I don't think it does. I file both returns and I know by early March, what my numbers for both returns will look like.

 

[offset]

15 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

 

Yes, I am aware of those dates. The Thai Revenue permits an extension past 31 March, for people who file their return electronically, I think it is until 8 April.

 

The point of all of this is that by end March, early April, UK expats will be in a position to file ther Thai and UK returns with current and complete data. The poster asked if the overlapping years presented a problem and I don't think it does. I file both returns and I know by early March, what my numbers for both returns will look like.

 

Are you saying that you are going to file the same tax figures you get from the UK on your Thai return 

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, offset said:

Are you saying that you are going to file the same tax figures you get from the UK on your Thai return 

Not really. I'm simply saying that the numbers from both countries, become available around the same time.

 

The numbers I file on the Thai return are based on my remittances to Thailand, my UK return is based on other things.

[chiang mai]

It's somewhat troubling, but not unexpected, to see the increased interest of tax consulting and legal firms, commenting on the new tax laws and adding their own slant on things, not just in forums like Facebook and here but also in all the media. I suspect this surge is about getting greater exposure and getting their names "out there" in advance of an increased demand for tax filing advice.

 

The truly worrying part is that not even Big 4 firms know much more than the collective AN Forum membership does at this stage. There is no secret stash of privileged information that only these firms know, we're all waiting for the same things, mostly for the Revenue to speak. So before some of you are tempted to rush out and seek professional guidance, it might be a better idea to wait and see what new information emerges before year end. There will still be plenty of time to do whatever is necessary, in the new year and you may well end up saving money.

 

 

 

 

[Talon]

Another unintended consequence of the TRD.

 

Talked to 2 guys today who have already started their 179-Day stays in Thailand. One is a friend. The other is friends with that friend.

 

Both had 2 bank accounts with very healthy balances that they used interchangeably for renewing their visas annually. One closed both of their accounts (2 million baht gone). The other closed one of the accounts and greatly reduced the account balance in the other (1.6 million baht gone).

 

They don't need to keep money here like they did before.
 

[ElwoodP]

Personal attack and reply removed.

No calling other posters liars!

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, Talon said:

Another unintended consequence of the TRD.

 

Talked to 2 guys today who have already started their 179-Day stays in Thailand. One is a friend. The other is friends with that friend.

 

Both had 2 bank accounts with very healthy balances that they used interchangeably for renewing their visas annually. One closed both of their accounts (2 million baht gone). The other closed one of the accounts and greatly reduced the account balance in the other (1.6 million baht gone).

 

They don't need to keep money here like they did before.
 

Its very odd that with 2 million in the bank they would remove those funds and begin 179 day stays now, it is non-sensical.

[wordchild]

18 hours ago, Bluetongue said:

How many wealthy Thais with overseas assets and income are there ?  How many old farang are here subsisting on adequate incomes from their previous country. I think A beats B by a country mile both in numbers and amount potentially owing. 

Through business I have got to know quite a few wealthy Thais with assets outside country.

 I wouldn’t claim to know, in detail, what their plans are , because everyone is naturally guarded in discussing such matters, however I have some general impressions of what some of them think about the new tax proposals and how they are reacting .

 1) Many wealthy Thais with assets outside Thailand are not that different from wealthy  (non- Thai)  expat who live in Thailand. Eg They have strong links to other countries where part of their  assets are held, especially in places like UK,USA. They were often educated in these countries and own property there. Their children were also educated abroad and in many cases they have close family members fully settled abroad. They see themselves as semi-detached from Thailand and a very high percentage have dual nationality, and if they don’t , for sure  their sons and daughters will usually have another nationality.  I know one wealthy Thai with 4 daughters all of whom are married and settled in the UK. As he told me , they come once a year to visit but he doesn’t think they will ever return to live in Thailand.

2) Again I wouldn’t know the details but among the ones I know they seem to have plans in place for a variety of scenarios eg family trusts already set up in Singapore and the like.

3) Mostly they seem pretty unconcerned about the new remittance tax. They have a certain amount of wealth in Thailand already and i assume they will just be cautious about bringing additional funds back into country.  A couple I know are just pretty dismissive of the whole thing and think it’s a storm in the proverbial, they have lawyers and other advisors and, as one of them remarked to me there are so many holes and ways around. it is just not going to work out in the way the RD expect. They expect light enforcement and a gradual walk back of the rules if it is seen as hurting critical parts of the economy.

4) a bigger concern for some is what will happen in the UK with the abolition of the non-dom status and, in particular, the possibility of an introduction of some form of inheritance tax on worldwide assets for those who were formerly classified as non-dom. 

Edited October 17 by wordchild

[jwest10]

On 10/16/2024 at 8:46 AM, chiang mai said:

This is true. But it's also worth understanding that for Thai people, their national ID card number serves as their TIN, they don't have a separate number for tax purposes hence, only none Thai's must apply for TIN's.

Been told can use my pink id number by the local Tax office but that is ever the forms are going to be printed for 2024

[chiang mai]

Over the past few decades, as people from every country have become more mobile, they have seized the opportunity to deposit and invest offshore and play the not tax resident card in their home country. I was doing this with great ease in the 1990's and early 2000's and there were no issues, even the banking sector cooperated fully.

 

The trend now is for governments to play catch up and harness some of that wealth and close down the tax residency escape clause. China is now starting to tax wealthy citizens who invest offshore and has now told them to pay tax on their estimated wealth!. That Thailand is making similar moves to tax offshore income of citizens is a natural step, expats are seeing a long standing loophole closed but they are by no means the target. Almost certainly, the lions share of any increase in the tax take will come from Thai citizens, not from foreigners.