Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[ukrules]

2 hours ago, 4myr said:

And there are certain remitted income that are not classified as assessable, e.g.:

1) savings before 1 Jan 2024
2) sold investments with a proven loss, so only the principal part of the investment is remitted
3) income that according to DTA is only taxable in the source country

 

4) Earnings / capital gains made in a year after 2023 when you were not tax resident and are remitted later or even during the year / years when you are non resident.
 

Edited November 1 by ukrules

[EVENKEEL]

This one came and went quickly. 

Edited November 1 by EVENKEEL

[TheAppletons]

8 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

This one came and went quickly. 

 

   That's what she said.

[topt]

On 11/1/2024 at 8:15 PM, EVENKEEL said:

This one came and went quickly. 

Why is that surprising considering it has little to do with the current topic..........shame on you 

[EVENKEEL]

9 hours ago, topt said:

Why is that surprising considering it has little to do with the current topic..........shame on you 

Little to do with current topic, really.  If it gives you purpose, who am I to disrupt the party. 

[Lorry]

Personal Allowance for spouse:

 

The simple tax guides writes "supporting a Thai wife".

I guess that's how Somchai the tax inspector sees it.

The RC does not say, it has to be a Thai wife.

It also doesn't say, you get this allowance only if you support her.

And from Sec 47 (3) of the RC follows,  that the wife doesn't even have to be a resident of Thailand. 

 

Sherrings says "dependent spouse", but if you continue reading it's clear that the spouse doesn't have to be in Thailand. 

https://sherrings.com/personal-tax-deductions-allowances-thailand.html

 

Any experiences about this?

Edited November 6 by Lorry

[stat]

Can anyone recommen a good thai tax calculator for the year 2022 and the then relevant allowances? Thanks!

[GypsyT]

IF I wanted to live in Thailand - no tax problem;

 

"US SOCIAL SECURITY 

56) As said at the outset, US Social Security (SSc) payments, a form of pension paid to some older people, can only be taxed by the US. Under DTA rules, Thailand is forbidden from taxing resident foreigners on them. This means those payments are NOT assessable income."

 

[4myr]

https://www.rd.go.th/65971.html

Some 2024 tax return forms are already available for download.

Cannot find specific details on 2024 remittance rule changes.
Very easy to fill in a nil return.

 

[Raindancer]

13 minutes ago, 4myr said:

https://www.rd.go.th/65971.html

Some 2024 tax return forms are already available for download.

Cannot find specific details on 2024 remittance rule changes.
Very easy to fill in a nil return.

 

That link just takes you to their website.   Click English and it opens criteria and rules for income tax etc.

 

 

 

 

[4myr]

18 minutes ago, Raindancer said:

That link just takes you to their website.   Click English and it opens criteria and rules for income tax etc.

 

 

 

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/tax_pdf/pit/2567/271266PIT93.pdf

One of the 2024 forms in Thai you can download.

[Raindancer]

Just now, 4myr said:

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/tax_pdf/pit/2567/271266PIT93.pdf

One of the 2024 forms in Thai you can download.

Many thanks.

[topt]

1 hour ago, 4myr said:

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/tax_pdf/pit/2567/271266PIT93.pdf

One of the 2024 forms in Thai you can download.

 

1 hour ago, Raindancer said:

Many thanks.

Although neither of which happens to be the Pnd 90 or 91 that is needed for the full year's PIT return.

Presumably they will be along shortly............ 

[stat]

Is is a self assesement only procedure to file for PIT?

 

Can I claim that all my remittances are pure profit or do I need to provide paperwork? My tax liabilty was/is zero in 2022 but I need to make something up for TRD to get a tax certificate.

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

Does the online filling also provide a tax calculation? I simply need to pay 100 Baht but would hate it to have missed an allowance and end up with a zero tax payment.

 

Thanks!

 

I understand there is still no way to get a tin online? My only solution so far is to pay 10000 Baht for a free procedure and use an agent as I am not in Thailand.

 

I fail to understand why there all sort of shenanigans regarding 800K Baht bank deposit by agents for a visa but for TRD everything must be according to book and no agencies are available that allow for a 20K Baht solution for a tax certificate that simply states that I have been in TH for longer then 180 days in 2022.

 

Any ideas highly welcomed!

Edited November 8 by stat

[andre47]

43 minutes ago, stat said:

Is is a self assesement only procedure to file for PIT?

 

Can I claim that all my remittances are pure profit or do I need to provide paperwork? My tax liabilty was/is zero in 2022 but I need to make something up for TRD to get a tax certificate.

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

Does the online filling also provide a tax calculation? I simply need to pay 100 Baht but would hate it to have missed an allowance and end up with a zero tax payment.

 

Thanks!

 

I understand there is still no way to get a tin online? My only solution so far is to pay 10000 Baht for a free procedure and use an agent as I am not in Thailand.

 

I fail to understand why there all sort of shenanigans regarding 800K Baht bank deposit by agents for a visa but for TRD everything must be according to book and no agencies are available that allow for a 20K Baht solution for a tax certificate that simply states that I have been in TH for longer then 180 days in 2022.

 

Any ideas highly welcomed!

Is is a self assesement only procedure to file for PIT?
yes

 

Can I claim that all my remittances are pure profit or do I need to provide paperwork? My tax liabilty was/is zero in 2022 but I need to make something up for TRD to get a tax certificate.
no paperwork until they select you for an audit

Can't you prove the 180 days with your passport?

[stat]

On 11/8/2024 at 12:38 PM, andre47 said:

Is is a self assesement only procedure to file for PIT?
yes

 

Can I claim that all my remittances are pure profit or do I need to provide paperwork? My tax liabilty was/is zero in 2022 but I need to make something up for TRD to get a tax certificate.
no paperwork until they select you for an audit

Can't you prove the 180 days with your passport?

Thanks for your answer!

 

Same here, my tax liability is zero for the year but I need the damm tax certificate. I can prove the 180 days in Thailand via 90 day reports and my passport. The German IRS demands a tax certificate and does not accept to my understanding the passport stamps. This is what is written in the german tax law to my understanding. However I am not sure if there is no other way to get Germany to accept my tax residence in TH as TRD makes such a fuss about a simple statement that I was longer then 180 days in TH.

 

All the tax agencies I contacted make a big fuss about the fact that I should prove that the amount I transfered is income etc and are not willing to accept so far a simple statement that it is pure income.

 

Cost for this tax certificate 35.000 Baht and above and I am not even sure they manage to obtain it in the end and even if get it it is not certain that I get the tax rebate from German IRS.

 

NB: I am not in TH, otherwise I could handle all the stuff myself I suppose. It is my understanding that I can hand in a thai tax declaration 3 years later i.e. March 2026 latest.

 

 

 

 

 

[andre47]

7 hours ago, stat said:

Thanks for your answer!

 

Same here, my tax liability is zero for the year but I need the damm tax certificate. I can prove the 180 days in Thailand via 90 day reports and my passport. The German IRS demands a tax certificate and does not accept to my understanding the passport stamps. This is what is written in the german tax law to my understanding. However I am not sure if there is no other way to get Germany to accept my tax residence in TH as TRD makes such a fuss about a simple statement that I was longer then 180 days in TH.

 

All the tax agencies I contacted make a big fuss about the fact that I should prove that the amount I transfered is income etc and are not willing to accept so far a simple statement that it is pure income.

 

Cost for this tax certificate 35.000 Baht and above and I am not even sure they manage to obtain it in the end and even if get it it is not certain that I get the tax rebate from German IRS.

 

NB: I am not in TH, otherwise I could handle all the stuff myself I suppose. It is my understanding that I can hand in a thai tax declaration 3 years later i.e. March 2026 latest.

 

 

 

 

 

If you were a tax resident in Thailand in 2022, then you had previously deregistered as a tax resident in Germany, right? Why did you still have to pay taxes there?
 

To get a tax certificate in Thailand, you must have paid taxes in the year in question. When you submit your tax return you don't need to provide any proof, but of course the tax office can ask for proof later. However, I can't imagine that they will ask you for proof if you declare a very low income for tax purposes. Even if they do, it should not be difficult to prove such an income.

You can also submit a tax return in Thailand at a later date, but you may then be subject to interest and a penalty.

[chiang mai]

Filing a return and paying just a small amount of tax, gets you that tax certificate, without it there's no absolute proof of tax residency that will satisfy some governments, or so it seems. Another reason to consider, if appropriate or if you think it might be needed later.

[The Cyclist]

7 hours ago, stat said:

The German IRS demands a tax certificate and does not accept to my understanding the passport stamps. This is what is written in the german tax law to my understanding. However I am not sure if there is no other way to get Germany to accept my tax residence in TH as TRD makes such a fuss about a simple statement that I was longer then 180 days in TH.

 

Having looked into this for a Private Pension that currently stays in the UK and is taxed in the UK.

 

The following is the UK procedure.

 

* Obtain a Thai TIN.

 

* Through a UK Tax accountant ( or similar ) apply for a  NT  tax code for that pension, giving the Thai TIN as to where tax will be paid on that pension.

 

* HMRC will issue a NT tax code to the pension administrator, providing that they are satisfied that is not being done for tax avoidance / evasion reasons.

 

Which in my case would be fairly simple. My Government pension is paid directly to my Thai bank account and the pension adminsistrator has my Thai address.

 

Jobs a good un, if I wanted to get involved with Thai taxation and the Revenue Dept.

 

This might be a road that I go down, once the muddy waters clear in Thailand.

[Phulublub]

4 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Having looked into this for a Private Pension that currently stays in the UK and is taxed in the UK.

 

The following is the UK procedure.

 

* Obtain a Thai TIN.

 

* Through a UK Tax accountant ( or similar ) apply for a  NT  tax code for that pension, giving the Thai TIN as to where tax will be paid on that pension.

 

* HMRC will issue a NT tax code to the pension administrator, providing that they are satisfied that is not being done for tax avoidance / evasion reasons.

 

Which in my case would be fairly simple. My Government pension is paid directly to my Thai bank account and the pension adminsistrator has my Thai address.

 

Jobs a good un, if I wanted to get involved with Thai taxation and the Revenue Dept.

 

This might be a road that I go down, once the muddy waters clear in Thailand.

You talk about Private Pension, but then about Government Pension...which is it?  My understanding is that Government Pensions (those earned by working for the Government, not State Pension) are taxed at source in UK and this cannot be changed.

 

PH

[The Cyclist]

10 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

You talk about Private Pension, but then about Government Pension...which is it?  My understanding is that Government Pensions (those earned by working for the Government, not State Pension) are taxed at source in UK and this cannot be changed.

 

PH

 

It is possible to have both a Government Pension and a Private Pension. The joys of having a Government Pension at 40 years of age.

 

I might also have a State Pension in 4 years time if it does not become means tested before then.

 

Correct, Government Pension taxed at source in the UK and only Dual Nationals can / could  apply for an NT tax code on a Government pension, if they return to their original Country.

 

I could apply for an NT tax code for my Private Pension and pay tax in thailand on it. Which would probably benefit me, as it currently taxed at a straight 20% in the UK.

 

But none of this is new, It was documented in the original tax thread last November / December.

[jwest10]

On 11/8/2024 at 2:21 PM, Raindancer said:

Many thanks.

Waste of time then PND 90 and 91 and the entitlement of allowances form?

 

[jwest10]

On 11/1/2024 at 2:20 PM, Presnock said:

I agree with you.  WE continue to see articles with "hints' that these issues are being at least discussed and from the writers comments it appears like most things here have different issues with different others so they have a difficult time coming up with agreeable new laws.  I think that they are in such dire economic straits at this time that if this govt remains in power, we will see some progress on the taxation schemes.  Like the  casino bill - they indicate that even if the cabinet passes it, it would take another 6 months to begin such activity.  If they do plan to change the tax situation to a worldwide income taxed then it probably could not take effect until 2026 or so for filing in 2027.  But, the bottom line is TIT!

 

a Thai tax return is required for one with assessable income. IAW the revenue dept, they will not even issue a tax ID number if you do not have any assessable income.  That of course under any new guidance might change to require EVERY tax resident must get a tax ID number and file a tax form even if no assessable income.  But unless the revenue department spells out these new rules, we should only have to abide by those rules they have written on their webpage - in English too.  As of now, unless some new guidance is provided, I will not get a tax ID number nor a tax form as I will never have any ASSESSABLE income (US govt civil service pension taxed only by US govt) and I also have a LTR visa.  I am relaxed right now but am just looking for any changes to the current rules.  I have read them several times as well as the DTA so understand.  Hopefully new tax forms along with wider tax rules will be coming out this month or next month.  Good luck

Or form next year at the earliest but nothing so far!!!

[chiang mai]

I was thinking about this thorny old issue of who needs to file when, if tax is due, regardless if tax is not due, TEDA etc etc.

 

It is said that 24% of the workforce (36 million) file tax returns whilst only 11% pay taxes, that equates to around 12% of the population (72 million) filing a return and around 6% paying taxes.  If those numbers are correct, it seems that over half those returns are null returns where no tax is due. I know that self employed people MUST file twice a year, regardless of whether tax is due or not. Self employed folks are no different really from individual Personal Income Tax payers, they gave slightly different TEDA in some areas but essentially they are the same.

 

So the question becomes, if it is only common sense that the TRD does not want null returns, why are so many people filing them and why are so many people forced to file them? It seems that there are almost 4.5 million null returns being filed already, why is that?  You can argue whether the percentages are exact or just close enough but I don't think it changes the fundamental question.

[JimGant]

24 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

It is said that 24% of the workforce (36 million) file tax returns whilst only 11% pay taxes, t

Said by whom?

[chiang mai]

8 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Said by whom?

 

Bangkok Post says over 12 million tax returns were filed in 2023. Of those, 4.5 million were requests for refunds so therein lies part of the answer. But the 4.5 mill was unusually high as fraud was suspected.

 

https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/general/2799906/tax-refunds-delayed-by-surge-in-fake-submissions

 

And as of 2020 there were 3.3 millions tax payers in the system, I have read elsewhere that number has increased slightly since..

 

https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/general/2020179/revenue-department-plan-intends-to-add-some-500-000-taxpayers

Edited November 10 by chiang mai

[JimGant]

26 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

I know that self employed people MUST file twice a year, regardless of whether tax is due or not.

You're saying all those self-employed rice farmers I drive by every day are filing tax returns, not just once a year but twice a year -- and most not owing any tax? I would employ a term you don't like -- common sense. So, incorporating that term -- wouldn't you surmise that most are not filing a return -- assuming most don't even know they're supposed to?

 

36 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

So the question becomes, if it is only common sense that the TRD does not want null returns, why are so many people filing them

 

I say they're not.

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, JimGant said:

You're saying all those self-employed rice farmers I drive by every day are filing tax returns, not just once a year but twice a year -- and most not owing any tax? I would employ a term you don't like -- common sense. So, incorporating that term -- wouldn't you surmise that most are not filing a return -- assuming most don't even know they're supposed to?

 

 

I say they're not.

It is a fact that all self employed individuals must file in twice a year, half yearly and annually, regardless of whether they have tax to pay or not. Refunds will absorb some of the difference between the 12% of fiulers and 6% of payers but not all.

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

You're saying all those self-employed rice farmers I drive by every day are filing tax returns, not just once a year but twice a year -- and most not owing any tax? I would employ a term you don't like -- common sense. So, incorporating that term -- wouldn't you surmise that most are not filing a return -- assuming most don't even know they're supposed to?

 

 

I say they're not.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt this time and pretend that you don't understand and will try to explain it to you.

 

If the average wage in Thailand is 15,000 baht nationwide, that's only 200k baht per year, under the threshold to pay tax for most people (60k personal allowance and 150k zero rated band) That means that on average, Thai's don't qualify to pay tax.

 

If Thai's are working and are registered as self employed, it's easily possible to earn three times that amount and still not qualify to pay tax, this is because of the generous deductions allowed for the self employed. If you are registered as self employed, my wife confirms the TRD is quite strict about reminding you to file when needed. Fortunately she does but no doubt they have a follow up system in place if you don't.

 

So yes, it's very probable that many of those rice farmers that you pass, maybe are filing returns twice a year and none are paying tax, legally.

 

I wonder why it is you don't know these things having lived in Thailand as long as you have, especially since you tell us you're a numbers person who knows about taxation. I would have thought some of these things would have rubbed off on you over the years, who knows, maybe it did and perhaps you just forgot, recall isn't what it once was, as we age.

 

Lastly as I see it we have 12 million people filing return, 3 million people paying tax and 4 million people looking for refunds, that's 5 million returns that are...dare I say it, null returns, possible? And if they are not null returns, what are they?

 

https://www.expatica.com/th/work/law/thailand-minimum-wage-2172841/#:~:text=The average monthly salary in,that of Malaysia and Singapore.

 

 

Edited November 10 by chiang mai

[stat]

9 hours ago, andre47 said:

If you were a tax resident in Thailand in 2022, then you had previously deregistered as a tax resident in Germany, right? Why did you still have to pay taxes there?
 

To get a tax certificate in Thailand, you must have paid taxes in the year in question. When you submit your tax return you don't need to provide any proof, but of course the tax office can ask for proof later. However, I can't imagine that they will ask you for proof if you declare a very low income for tax purposes. Even if they do, it should not be difficult to prove such an income.

You can also submit a tax return in Thailand at a later date, but you may then be subject to interest and a penalty.

You still have to pay German withholding tax on German dividend income in the form of 26.375% instead of 15% if you have a tax certificate. The withholding tax even applies if you never in your life sat foot into Germany. The US simply accepts the w8 Ben form and you get the 15% rate. But Germany being the tax <deleted>show it is, they want a tax certificate otherwise you pay 26.375%. The reimbursement process take 2-4 years to top it off. That is why I want the tax certificate.

 

Maybe there will be some improvements in the future regarding the issuance of TINs (online?) and tax certificates.

Edited November 10 by stat