Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[topt]

3 hours ago, chiang mai said:

so the concept of fairness isn't a priority. 

I would go further than that and suggest that when this change was initially decided on I doubt foreigners were even considered. I am still somewhat amazed that there hasn't been any concerted push back from the major property developers.......

[anrcaccount]

3 hours ago, topt said:

I would go further than that and suggest that when this change was initially decided on I doubt foreigners were even considered. I am still somewhat amazed that there hasn't been any concerted push back from the major property developers.......

 

 

If anyone ever actually pays tax on a foreign remittance to purchase a Thai property, it'll be all over the news, and I guarantee there will be push back!

 

[4myr]

8 hours ago, motdaeng said:

 

i'm not entirely sure about that ...

 

just thinking out loud and playing numbers : if from around 300,000 foreign tax residents, and only 10% of them pay taxes an average of 50,000 thb annually, this would result in a total of 30,000 x 50,000 thb = 1,500,000,000 thb ... which could be a solid foundation to further strengthen tax regulations ...

 

however, we don't really know how the TRD views this or whether there is an other long-term plan in place ...

 

If I just do an AI search [perplexity.ai], I just don't see the numbers add up for TRD to expect a good catch from expats with a retirement visa.

- retirement visa: 35,846
- Elite visa: 20,884 [mostly Chinese]

- Smart visa: 2,170

- LTR visa: 7k [exempted]
- DTV: new
- B visa: no numbers, but assume they already are in the tax net

 

Of above group, I see only the expats with a retirement visa of which a percentage are either not aware of remittance taxation or for convenience sake have their pension remitted monthly directly into their Thai bank account.

 

Looking at the larger groups:

UK: 9,940, median income: 14k GBP with big regional variations[ Wales vs London/South East], including state pension

Germany: 8,000, median: 19k euro, but male average is 25k euro, including state pension

US: 5,170, median: 18k USD for male, excluding social security, which is DTA exempted

In many DTA's state and private pensions are taxable in Thailand. Only government pensions are exempted.

 

But looking at median figures above, even for the male population [as the female pension income is much lower], 25k euro amounts to less than 900k baht gross taxable income .

[CapraIbex]

19 minutes ago, 4myr said:

If I just do an AI search

AI search engines can and do make mistakes. The assertion that a "Retirement Visa" for Thailand does exist is misleading.

 

[KhunHeineken]

4 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

 

 

If anyone ever actually pays tax on a foreign remittance to purchase a Thai property, it'll be all over the news, and I guarantee there will be push back!

 

All that will happen is property sales will go down, sharply, and property rentals will go up, sharply.

 

It will, in effect, help the old saying, "Thailand is for Thai people."  Thai's will buy up cheap condo's as investment properties, and foreigners will just rent.  

 

What foreigner in their right mind would pay a considerable amount of tax on a lump sum of money to buy an overprice condo in the first place????  There already is no resale value, and this tax will make it near impossible to sell in the future for what was paid for it.   

[jwest10]

15 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

All that will happen is property sales will go down, sharply, and property rentals will go up, sharply.

 

It will, in effect, help the old saying, "Thailand is for Thai people."  Thai's will buy up cheap condo's as investment properties, and foreigners will just rent.  

 

What foreigner in their right mind would pay a considerable amount of tax on a lump sum of money to buy an overprice condo in the first place????  There already is no resale value, and this tax will make it near impossible to sell in the future for what was paid for it.   

We surprised? NOT and no forms 90 and 91 and the allowances and deductibles and theyre never will be?

[oldcpu]

16 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

There already is no resale value, ..

 

With respect, if I understood correctly that small part of your post that I quoted, that is not accurate.  Yes many condos fall in value ( where I once read Thais prefer new condos).  However some also go up in value, especially if the condo CJPM and Committee work to maintain and even improve the condo. Asking ( and selling/buying ) prices in the condo complex in Phuket where I live are about 35% higher than what they were 6 years ago.

[KhunHeineken]

2 hours ago, oldcpu said:

 

With respect, if I understood correctly that small part of your post that I quoted, that is not accurate.  Yes many condos fall in value ( where I once read Thais prefer new condos).  However some also go up in value, especially if the condo CJPM and Committee work to maintain and even improve the condo. Asking ( and selling/buying ) prices in the condo complex in Phuket where I live are about 35% higher than what they were 6 years ago.

It is well known that there is a massive oversupply of properties in the tourist areas of Thailand. 

 

Market forces (supply and demand) shows that when there is more supply than demand, prices fall. 

 

I just had a look at one of Thailand's bigger online real estate agencies, Siam Real Estate, and it shows 1135 properties for sale in Phuket. 

 

Sure, the odd high end property may sell at a higher price than it was purchased for, but good luck selling your condo when it is amongst 1135 other properties, and that's just one online real estate agency.  How many more would there be on the market if all the for sale data was collected. 

 

Also, they keep building more, and more, putting further downward pressure on property prices.  

[chiang mai]

3 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

It is well known that there is a massive oversupply of properties in the tourist areas of Thailand. 

 

Market forces (supply and demand) shows that when there is more supply than demand, prices fall. 

 

I just had a look at one of Thailand's bigger online real estate agencies, Siam Real Estate, and it shows 1135 properties for sale in Phuket. 

 

Sure, the odd high end property may sell at a higher price than it was purchased for, but good luck selling your condo when it is amongst 1135 other properties, and that's just one online real estate agency.  How many more would there be on the market if all the for sale data was collected. 

 

Also, they keep building more, and more, putting further downward pressure on property prices.  

How many are actually for sale! I looked at one site recently and saw my own house for sale, it's been off the market for ten years!!!

[oldcpu]

11 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

It is well known that there is a massive oversupply of properties in the tourist areas of Thailand. 

 

...  good luck selling your condo when it is amongst 1135 other properties, and that's just one online real estate agency.  How many more would there be on the market if all the for sale data was collected.

 

I have no intention to sell. 

 

Still ...

 

There is LIMITED land that can offer sea views (the sort of incredible view my condo unit has).  So where there is a limited desirable location, the price goes up.   That is market forces.

 

Market forces - something I believe you also agree is a key factor - has driven up the price.

 

So to claim "no resale value" (those are NOT my words - they are your words). 

 

So "no resale value".  ....   Serious? 

That is so wrong -

 

I TRIED to be polite in reply but do you really want to go down this road of discussion, saying "NO RESALE" value, when clearly there is some resale value.

 

Yes - possibly less value for some (although they do get some).  And MORE value for others (who make a profit)  - where as I pointed out, current sellers in the complex where I live are earning 35% on the original purchase value.  That  is VERY VERY VERY far your claim of "NO RESALE  VALUE".

 

Those (NO RESALE VALUE words) are not my words. 

 

Often, massive exaggerations do not help one's case in a discussion.

[KhunHeineken]

6 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

How many are actually for sale! I looked at one site recently and saw my own house for sale, it's been off the market for ten years!!!

Check out out yourself. 

 

https://www.siamrealestate.com

[chiang mai]

52 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Check out out yourself. 

 

https://www.siamrealestate.com

Yeah, I know, my question still stands....RE Agents have a nasty habit of selling properties and leaving them advertised, that was my point.

[anrcaccount]

Just now, chiang mai said:

Yeah, I know, my question still stands....RE Agents have a nasty habit of selling properties and leaving them advertised, that was my point.

Well said - I don't always disagree with your comments - everything is for sale in Thailand.......if the price is right! 

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

3 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Yeah, I know, my question still stands....RE Agents have a nasty habit of selling properties and leaving them advertised, that was my point.

All 1135 of them, really?  I don't think so. 

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, KhunHeineken said:

All 1135 of them, really?  I don't think so. 

Are you ADHD or what....no, not all of them, just some of them!

[scottiejohn]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

How many are actually for sale! I looked at one site recently and saw my own house for sale, it's been off the market for ten years!!!

Are you sure you still own it?

[scottiejohn]

28 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Yeah, I know, my question still stands....RE Agents have a nasty habit of selling properties and leaving them advertised, that was my point.

Why should they?

[JohnnyBD]

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

How many are actually for sale! I looked at one site recently and saw my own house for sale, it's been off the market for ten years!!!

That's funny. Yes, many listings are never taken down. Agents use the old listings to get leads so they can show you other units. Also, you will see the same units listed by many agents & companies. 

[Ben Zioner]

On 12/28/2024 at 8:44 AM, The Cyclist said:

Those that might be liable for such an amount, would have already adjusted their finances to ensure that they were not paying that amount.

And would one achieve that? I earn and spend 3 to 4 million a year, what "adjustment" to my finances would prevent me to pay tax?   

 

Fortunately I have "adjusted" my visa situation.. Otherwise I'd just go.

[stat]

On 12/28/2024 at 8:13 AM, topt said:

I would go further than that and suggest that when this change was initially decided on I doubt foreigners were even considered. I am still somewhat amazed that there hasn't been any concerted push back from the major property developers.......

Maybe the property companies have been complaining behind the scenes... Complaining in the open would be very "unthai" and would be a loss of face for the other side.

[stat]

4 hours ago, chiang mai said:

Yeah, I know, my question still stands....RE Agents have a nasty habit of selling properties and leaving them advertised, that was my point.

Fully correct! When I was trying to rent I came up with about 20 houses from an agents website and only 2 were actually available. The agents put the houses up once and never ever check again if the house is still available 🙂

[stat]

4 hours ago, scottiejohn said:

Why should they?

One one would expect the real estate agent to be a professionalist that values customers time, but I know TiT, nevertheless I stick with a good or better then the rest real estate agent.

[jmd8800]

Here we are coming up on tax filing season. Has anyone found a reasonable way to get a Tax ID and then file without having to go through the numerous expat filing agencies charging a premium price?

 

I had though about printing every possible paper I can think of they might want and traveling to my local TRD office and say: "Ok I'm ready to file." and see what happens.

[oldcpu]

12 minutes ago, jmd8800 said:

Here we are coming up on tax filing season. Has anyone found a reasonable way to get a Tax ID and then file without having to go through the numerous expat filing agencies charging a premium price?

 

One way to get a tax-ID is to apply online.  That online application will go to Bangkok, and they will likely forward the application to your local provincial (?) Revenue Department, who might end up calling you.  Likely they will want from you your source of income.  If your income is from outside of Thailand they will likely want to know if you have/are bringing the income into Thailand after 31-Dec-2023, ... AND very important they will want confirmation you spend >180 days per tax (calendar) year in Thailand.

 

If you don't spend >180 days per tax (calendar) year in Thailand, or if you have no Thai income AND you are not bringing foreign income into Thailand (which is possible if you are living off of income brought into Thailand before 31-Dec-2023 when you were NOT a Thai tax resident) - then in those cases they may initially deny you a Thai tax ID.

 

That's what happened to me.

 

However if you insist that you need the tax-ID (say to recover some withholding  tax on Thai bank accounts, or be because you plan to bring money into Thailand soon) then they may give you a Tax-ID.

 

My having typed that I think your next point very salient:

 

12 minutes ago, jmd8800 said:

 

I had though about printing every possible paper I can think of they might want and traveling to my local TRD office and say: "Ok I'm ready to file." and see what happens.

 

 That should work IMHO.  You may end up spending some time thou, at the local TRD, while they try to figure out what to do with you.

 

Best wishes and luck on this.

[OJAS]

1 hour ago, jmd8800 said:

Here we are coming up on tax filing season. Has anyone found a reasonable way to get a Tax ID and then file without having to go through the numerous expat filing agencies charging a premium price?

 

I had though about printing every possible paper I can think of they might want and traveling to my local TRD office and say: "Ok I'm ready to file." and see what happens.

 

In proving your tax residency status in Thailand (as pointed out by @oldcpu), your tax office will probably be reliant on the IMM stamps in your passport in practice. So definitely have your passport (+ copies of relevant pages) on you when you visit them.

 

More generally, I would strongly advise you to have a native Thai speaker accompany you on any trip to your office. The grasp of English among TRD office staff tends to be next-to-zero (certainly that was the case in my local office when I obtained a TIN there a few months ago). In addition, they may require from you a completed form in Thai* - which, thankfully, my wife was on hand to do the honours in my case!

 

* https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/tax_pdf/request/lp10.1_110355.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jmd8800]

Thanks for the info. @oldcpu and @OJAS

[KhunHeineken]

On 12/29/2024 at 11:05 AM, chiang mai said:

Are you ADHD or what....no, not all of them, just some of them!

Well, go ahead, put a percentage on it. 

 

I bet it still shows a massive oversupply, and they are still building more. 

 

You do know about supply and demand market forces, don't you? 

[KhunHeineken]

On 12/29/2024 at 11:28 AM, scottiejohn said:

Are you sure you still own it?

Ohhhh, he owns the structure, but he sure doesn't own the land it sits on.  A fine investment indeed. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 12/29/2024 at 11:29 AM, scottiejohn said:

Why should they?

I agree. 

 

There might be some lazy ones that don't take a property off the website, but when they get some calls about a property that is not for sale and it wastes their time, what's the point of leaving it up on the website?

 

Sure, some of them might leave a few there as "bait" properties, but most prospective buyers will just hang up the phone. 

[jayboy]

9 hours ago, jmd8800 said:

Has anyone found a reasonable way to get a Tax ID and then file without having to go through the numerous expat filing agencies charging a premium price?

 

What would you consider to be a reasonable all in fee for getting a TIN and arranging filing on behalf of an expatriate - assuming there are no particular complications? I'd say Bt 10,000 first year and Bt 7000 thereafter.