Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[TroubleandGrumpy]

On 7/15/2024 at 9:26 PM, Mike Lister said:

As author of the thread, I think this debate should be allowed to die, it's not constructive and not conducive to the spirit or purpose of the thread.

I am more than happy to see this 'debate' continue in its current direction and form.  Plus I would point out that this thread Parts 1 and 2 was done to consolidate all other existing discussions on separate threads into the one thread.  I would prefer not to have another bunch of threads appear whenever a new issue is raised- as they inevitably will be, as this thing goes forward.  I know where to go to for the latest information and discussions on Thailand taxing Expats - and it is to this thread. 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I am more than happy to see this 'debate' continue in its current direction and form.  Plus I would point out that this thread Parts 1 and 2 was done to consolidate all other existing discussions on separate threads into the one thread.  I would prefer not to have another bunch of threads appear whenever a new issue is raised- as they inevitably will be, as this thing goes forward.  I know where to go to for the latest information and discussions on Thailand taxing Expats - and it is to this thread. 

I was referring to a particular debate between two argumentative posters rather than the entire thread.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

13 minutes ago, StraightTalk said:

Care to share the name of this 'Accredited Tax Company' ?

You have clearly never received legal advice before - you are not allowed to publish 'substantial information' contained in that advice and the organisation that gave it to you - without their permission.  Look it up ret.

   

[Amethyst]

More off-topic bickering posts have been removed. Please focus your posting on the subject of the thread, not arguing with fellow forum members.

 

[Mike Lister]

13 hours ago, jwest10 said:

Again, everyone, I went to my local tax office in Kanchanaburi today 17th July 2024 saying we have no information  and even those Thai who file taxes are stating this is absurd and do you not get taxed by your British Government  

I don't know why you are so surprised that your local tax office in Kanchanaburi had no information about the rule change for you, what did you expect? The TRD made one small policy change, last September, to  one rule regarding remittances, that impacts the filing next January.....the principles involved in that change are well understood. TRD has said the forms are being redesigned and will be made available later in the year, much more than those things, there is nothing  left to explain.

 

Regarding worldwide taxation: do you seriously expect the average Thai person to understand the concept of worldwide taxation and how that fits in overall? Most AN members weren't aware of the concept, before it was mentioned in this forum so I'm certain that most Thai's wont understand it. Heck, until eight months ago, most forum members didn't think they had to pay tax in Thailand on funds remitted here, let alone having to pay tax in the future on funds that are earned in another country.

[Mike Lister]

12 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Sorry - that was formal advice provided to myself on the basis that it was not 'published'.  The usual legal caveats as comes with any legal advice given to anyone else - you are not allowed to publish that advice.  However they are well known and have been referred to several times in this and other related threads.  

You're not being asked to share the advice, only the name of the company. I think posters want to judge for themselves whether these alleged accredited tax experts are really that, and not just somebody you emailed and selected using a pin and a phone book! 

[jwest10]

8 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I don't know why you are so surprised that your local tax office in Kanchanaburi had no information about the rule change for you, what did you expect? The TRD made one small policy change, last September, to  one rule regarding remittances, that impacts the filing next January.....the principles involved in that change are well understood. TRD has said the forms are being redesigned and will be made available later in the year, much more than those things, there is nothing  left to explain.

 

Regarding worldwide taxation: do you seriously expect the average Thai person to understand the concept of worldwide taxation and how that fits in overall? Most AN members weren't aware of the concept, before it was mentioned in this forum so I'm certain that most Thai's wont understand it. Heck, until eight months ago, most forum members didn't think they had to pay tax in Thailand on funds remitted here, let alone having to pay tax in the future on funds that are earned in another country.

Mike.
We have to wait and see and yes went around to my local tax office this morning and they have no idea of this ex-pat income tax and only providing information as given to ne and just being helpful.
Will  not but could you let us know about newforms etc and btw the Pattaya paper stated 100k tax forms were sent out ONLY TO THAIS BY POST OK to be helpful.
Cheers and thanks again Mike

[TroubleandGrumpy]

8 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

You're not being asked to share the advice, only the name of the company. I think posters want to judge for themselves whether these alleged accredited tax experts are really that, and not just somebody you emailed and selected using a pin and a phone book! 

Clearly your knowledge of the legal/taxation systems are very short in substance and you have no idea how things are done in Thailand's legal system.  It took me less than a minute to find this perfectly clear legal advice about disclaimers and caveats in email advice.  May I suggest that you read up on legal and taxation matters a lot more so that you are made more aware.  For you and and other ignorant person (ignorant of legal realities) I offer the following website as quick summary of why emails have disclaimers and caveats.   

 

Email Confidentiality Disclaimers: Annoying But Are They Legally Binding? (cenkuslaw.com)

 

However, before anyone thinks using their hillbilly understanding that their statements that the email disclaimers may not be technically enforceable, I will remind you that the legal system in Thailand is not the same as that in Kansas (where people have rights). In Thailand it is very much a cowboy system - where people get arrested and put in jail for negative social media statements etc etc etc. I am certainly not going to risk getting into the bad books of the company that sent the email with a clear disclaimer of not publishing it.  How about me demanding the names and titles of any persons in TRD that gave you the advice and information that you keep quoting??  

[TroubleandGrumpy]

1 minute ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Clearly your knowledge of the legal/taxation systems are very short in substance and you have no idea how things are done in Thailand's legal system.  It took me less than a minute to find this perfectly clear legal advice about disclaimers and caveats in email advice.  May I suggest that you read up on legal and taxation matters a lot more so that you are made more aware.  For you and and other ignorant person (ignorant of legal realities) I offer the following website as quick summary of why emails have disclaimers and caveats.   

 

Email Confidentiality Disclaimers: Annoying But Are They Legally Binding? (cenkuslaw.com)

 

However, before anyone thinks using their hillbilly understanding that their statements that the email disclaimers may not be technically enforceable, I will remind you that the legal system in Thailand is not the same as that in Kansas (where people have rights). In Thailand it is very much a cowboy system - where people get arrested and put in jail for negative social media statements etc etc etc. I am certainly not going to risk getting into the bad books of the company that sent the email with a clear disclaimer of not publishing it.  How about me demanding the names and titles of any persons in TRD that gave you the advice and information that you keep quoting??  

And yes - it was a USA/Thai legal firm, incorporated in USA and with an operating office in Thailand.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

2 hours ago, hotandsticky said:

 

 

Well....................that's straight talking.

And a straight answer was provided straight back 🙂 

[Captain Flack]

A reported personal attack post and the bickering that followed has been removed. I am not here to censor opinions, but if you result to name calling your comments will be removed along with any valid points you raise.

 

Reminder 9. You will not post disruptive or inflammatory messages. You will respect other members and post in a civil manner. Personal attacks, insults or hate speech posted on the  forum or sent by private message are not allowed.

[Mike Lister]

12 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Clearly your knowledge of the legal/taxation systems are very short in substance and you have no idea how things are done in Thailand's legal system.  It took me less than a minute to find this perfectly clear legal advice about disclaimers and caveats in email advice.  May I suggest that you read up on legal and taxation matters a lot more so that you are made more aware.  For you and and other ignorant person (ignorant of legal realities) I offer the following website as quick summary of why emails have disclaimers and caveats.   

 

Email Confidentiality Disclaimers: Annoying But Are They Legally Binding? (cenkuslaw.com)

 

However, before anyone thinks using their hillbilly understanding that their statements that the email disclaimers may not be technically enforceable, I will remind you that the legal system in Thailand is not the same as that in Kansas (where people have rights). In Thailand it is very much a cowboy system - where people get arrested and put in jail for negative social media statements etc etc etc. I am certainly not going to risk getting into the bad books of the company that sent the email with a clear disclaimer of not publishing it.  How about me demanding the names and titles of any persons in TRD that gave you the advice and information that you keep quoting??  

You have quoted this unnamed source several times which I think appears to contravene forum rules since this topic is within current affairs and a member is portraying things as fact. You're not being asked to give up state secrets, nor surrender privileged information, only to substantiate the many things you have been repeating:

 

5. You will not use ASEAN NOW to post any material which is knowingly or can be reasonably construed as false, inaccurate, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law. Topics or posts deemed to be scaremongering, deliberately misleading or which deliberately distort information will be removed. In factual areas such as news forums and current affairs topics member content that is claimed or portrayed as a fact should be supported by a link to a relevant reputable source.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

18 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

You have quoted this unnamed source several times which I think appears to contravene forum rules since this topic is within current affairs and a member is portraying things as fact. You're not being asked to give up state secrets, nor surrender privileged information, only to substantiate the many things you have been repeating:

 

5. You will not use ASEAN NOW to post any material which is knowingly or can be reasonably construed as false, inaccurate, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law. Topics or posts deemed to be scaremongering, deliberately misleading or which deliberately distort information will be removed. In factual areas such as news forums and current affairs topics member content that is claimed or portrayed as a fact should be supported by a link to a relevant reputable source.

You sure know a lot about the forum rules - please allow me to rhetort.

I am not referring to a published website source - I am referring to an email I was provided.  How do I post a link to a personal email????

But I am reluctant to 'debate' this matter any further or I am sure you will report me and get me suspended again.

You seem to think you are still a Mod and that you 'own' this thread and can control people that disagree with anything you state as fact.

Therefore, in order to shut down people like yourself and noting another derogatory posts was removed - I offer this edited screenshot.

I will not breach the terms and conditions of the email by publishing anything more than this.

 

I note that you and others do not demand I prove the quotes given for lodging a tax return - but here is one just for you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

30 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

5. You will not use ASEAN NOW to post any material which is knowingly or can be reasonably construed as false, inaccurate, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law. Topics or posts deemed to be scaremongering, deliberately misleading or which deliberately distort information will be removed. In factual areas such as news forums and current affairs topics member content that is claimed or portrayed as a fact should be supported by a link to a relevant reputable source.

 

I will now quote that same rule back at you.

You have demanded that I provide something that is both an invasion of my privacy and is in violation of a law (confidentiality).

However, I am not going to pursue this matter - and I do not want your or my posts removed.

 

What I have done in providing edited screenshots of 2 of the emails that I received, has been done to prove to you and others that you are wrong in making your assumption that I made up those emails.

 

Likewise, going forward, it is my intention on this public forum to discuss/debate anything that you or anyone else posts regarding Thai income taxes on Expats, that IMO is based on false or inaccurate assumptions. 

 

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

 

I will now quote that same rule back at you.

You have demanded that I provide something that is both an invasion of my privacy and is in violation of a law (confidentiality).

However, I am not going to pursue this matter - and I do not want your or my posts removed.

 

What I have done in providing edited screenshots of 2 of the emails that I received, has been done to prove to you and others that you are wrong in making your assumption that I made up those emails.

 

Likewise, going forward, it is my intention on this public forum to discuss/debate anything that you or anyone else posts regarding Thai income taxes on Expats, that IMO is based on false or inaccurate assumptions. 

 

Whatever!

 

Thank you for posting confirmation of what you said earlier. It does indeed appear that your tax affairs have been examined by  reputable tax accountants and they have confirmed that you do not need to file a tax return, because no tax is due. There must be many members who also do not have assessable income that exceeds the threshold, in which case, they also do not need to to file. I think what that confirms is, and I'm grasping at straws here, that at least one tax accountant understands the same rules that everyone else understands, other than that, I don't see any great revelation or change to our understanding on any front.

 

Regarding the forum rules - I attach a link in case you also wish to become familiar with them. 

 

https://aseannow.com/forum_rules/

[TroubleandGrumpy]

14 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I'm sure those things are true, because you said they were T&G, but the second part is not proven, which I am sure you will agree.

 

For anyone else who is reading this and doesn't fully understand, the issue at stake here is whether professional tax accountants will advise people not to file a return return, if no tax is due BUT the threshold has been exceeded. TRD and Big 4 guidance is that returns must be filed, where the threshold has been exceeded, even if it means TEDA will mean there is no tax due. 

 

Nothing is proven as with regards to any changes that will be made by TRD regarding Expats paying income taxes and lodging tax returns in 2025 and onwards. 

 

But what is proven is that it is not a fact that every Expat must lodge a tax return if they exceed the assessable income level (60K for a single person). Some tax experts will say that is the case based on the literal rules (and their desire to make money which is their job), and some tax experts say otherwise based on their experience about what TRD wants to be filed at this time.

 

You and I disagree - and I think that is clear to all - and we each have our own opinion.

 

I have accepted the advice that I do not need to lodge a tax return, and unless TRD states anything contrary to that advice, that is what I will be doing (not lodging a tax return).  It is up to others whether they agree with that or not - so lets stop debating this issue and move on.

 

[Mike Lister]

9 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

 

Nothing is proven as with regards to any changes that will be made by TRD regarding Expats paying income taxes and lodging tax returns in 2025 and onwards. 

 

But what is proven is that it is not a fact that every Expat must lodge a tax return if they exceed the assessable income level (60K for a single person). Some tax experts will say that is the case based on the literal rules (and their desire to make money which is their job), and some tax experts say otherwise based on their experience about what TRD wants to be filed at this time.

 

You and I disagree - and I think that is clear to all - and we each have our own opinion.

 

I have accepted the advice that I do not need to lodge a tax return, and unless TRD states anything contrary to that advice, that is what I will be doing (not lodging a tax return).  It is up to others whether they agree with that or not - so lets stop debating this issue and move on.

 

Not yet!

 

"what is proven is that it is not a fact that every Expat must lodge a tax return if they exceed the assessable income level (60K for a single person)". 

 

There are two parts to what you wrote above T&G, the first is whether or not the statement is a fact and the second is whether it is actually required in practise, the latter is what we're attempting to prove currently , because it has huge implications for many members. 

 

In the first part, the TRD and Big 4 rules state we must file a return where the assessable income levels exceed the threshold, that is fact that has been quoted and requoted far too many times.

 

In the second part, the questions exists whether operationally, the TRD does not require such a return to be filed, where no tax is due. To be crystal, this is where the assessible income levels have been breached but the applications of TEDA would mean no tax is due.

 

That is the sole difference between us and this is not yet proven. I was hoping your proof from tax consultants might help clarify that issue but it has not, that was why many of us wanted proof of what was said.

.

[JimGant]

17 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Yes I am well over the assessable income level based upon the strict definition of what is assessable income.  However, after allowances and exemptions as per the TRD Tax Code, and the TRD Lodgement Guide, and the Thai-Aust DTA, I do not have to pay any income taxes to Thailand and therefore the advice stated I do not need to lodge a tax return as per the current filing rules.  Quote:-  "This is based on the filing rules as of today's date.

And advice came from a large firm -- MPG-- if I read between the lines correctly. A very upstanding firm, dealing with many financial areas; thus they have no reason to solely rely on tax customers for their income, and thus no reason to treat their tax customers as suckers. So, their straight skinny: Never seen enforcement of a nonsensical law about having to file if assessable income exceeds 120k. Thus, common sense says -- only have to file if you have taxable income.

 

Grumpy, thanks for your research. I'd only file if I had taxable income, as that's just common sense. But nice to see a professional backup to that decision.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

1 minute ago, JimGant said:

And advice came from a large firm -- MPG-- if I read between the lines correctly. A very upstanding firm, dealing with many financial areas; thus they have no reason to solely rely on tax customers for their income, and thus no reason to treat their tax customers as suckers. So, their straight skinny: Never seen enforcement of a nonsensical law about having to file if assessable income exceeds 120k. Thus, common sense says -- only have to file if you have taxable income.

 

Grumpy, thanks for your research. I'd only file if I had taxable income, as that's just common sense. But nice to see a professional backup to that decision.

Thanks mate - much appreciated.

 

The clear MO of the TRD for many years, regarding Expats without employment income, is that they do not want us to lodge a tax return if we have no income taxes to pay. That same MO applies to all those Thais working in professions that means they are not employed by a company. That has been going on for many many years - it is what is called an 'unwritten rule'.  Now perhaps that is going to change going forward - and perhaps not.

 

But I have legal advice under the current filing rules, stating that I dont have to lodge a tax return because I have no income taxes to pay.  This is despite some other posters stating emphatically for many months that we all MUST get a TIN if they bring into Thailand over 60K Baht and that we all MUST also lodge a tax return.  That position is clearly wrong - it is not a MUST - it is an opinion.  Only when/if TRD provide details and clarification later this year, will we all know what TRD wants us to do - and in the absence of any new 'directive' that states all non-employed Expats must lodge a tax return, then I will go with the many years of common practice and the legal advice I was given. 

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, JimGant said:

And advice came from a large firm -- MPG-- if I read between the lines correctly. A very upstanding firm, dealing with many financial areas; thus they have no reason to solely rely on tax customers for their income, and thus no reason to treat their tax customers as suckers. So, their straight skinny: Never seen enforcement of a nonsensical law about having to file if assessable income exceeds 120k. Thus, common sense says -- only have to file if you have taxable income.

 

Grumpy, thanks for your research. I'd only file if I had taxable income, as that's just common sense. But nice to see a professional backup to that decision.

It's Groundhog Day again!

 

The operational practicalities of the case are not proven, there is no independent evidence to state that his assessable income level was exceeded.

 

When somebody says they were, "well over the assessable income level", the difference between the 220,000 baht income threshold level and his probable TEDA level of 500,000 baht,  is only 280,000 baht, that's only USD 7.7k which is not a huge amount. So it's difficult to be "well over", I think you'd agree.

Tax returns

 

 

All persons earning income are required to file a tax return no later than 31 March of the following year for hardcopy filing and 8 April for online filing, except for individuals whose income from employment is THB 120,000 or less (for single persons) or THB 220,000 or less (for married persons) and in the case of having income from other sources (with or without employment income) of THB 60,000 or less (for single persons) or THB 120,000 or less (for married persons).

[Mike Lister]

Just now, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Thanks mate - much appreciated.

 

The clear MO of the TRD for many years, regarding Expats without employment income, is that they do not want us to lodge a tax return if we have no income taxes to pay. That same MO applies to all those Thais working in professions that means they are not employed by a company. That has been going on for many many years - it is what is called an 'unwritten rule'.  Now perhaps that is going to change going forward - and perhaps not.

 

But I have legal advice under the current filing rules, stating that I dont have to lodge a tax return because I have no income taxes to pay.  This is despite some other posters stating emphatically for many months that we all MUST get a TIN if they bring into Thailand over 60K Baht and that we all MUST also lodge a tax return.  That position is clearly wrong - it is not a MUST - it is an opinion.  Only when/if TRD provide details and clarification later this year, will we all know what TRD wants us to do - and in the absence of any new 'directive' that states all non-employed Expats must lodge a tax return, then I will go with the many years of common practice and the legal advice I was given. 

Nope, nobody has ever said all that and you can't prove prove showing they have. What has been quoted is TRD regs regarding the point at which tax residents must acquire a TIN, 60 days after exceeding the assessable income level.....no more, no less.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

I have noted some differences of opinion regarding the level of 'assessable income' that is mentioned in the TRD Tax Guide as a trigger to being potentially liable to pay income taxes.  There are two separate Tax Guides as per below - and there are two 'trigger' amounts.

120K applies to singles who earn money through employment - Guide to Personal Income Tax Return 2023 (ภ.ง.ด.91)

60K applies to singles who earn money 'not from employment' - Guide to Personal Income Tax Return 2023 (ภ.ง.ด.90)

 

Go to this website below and click on 'pdf' to download each separate file.

Year 2023 | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th)

 

[ElwoodP]

Bickerering and off topic posts removed along with replies.

Please be civil and polite when posting.

[JimGant]

19 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

In the first part, the TRD and Big 4 rules state we must file a return where the assessable income levels exceed the threshold

Yes, they can quote the law very nicely. That the law is stupid, has never been enforced (no reports), and if somehow ever enforced -- chance near zip -- the repercussions would be extremely minor. That another powerful firm, like MPG, says, hey, the law is ridiculous, just file if you owe taxes. That's my kind of full service firm.

 

But, even without their hand holding -- to go thru the process of filing a nil return, getting a TIN, and now becoming wedded to the tax data base -- would make the non filing decision a no brainer.

 

Mike, your regard for the law is, well, admirable (?). But your tax advice xxxxs (not a personal attack!! please, mods -- just an observation)

[CharlieH]

Just to clarify, no one owns or controls a thread or its direction other than the administrators of this forum.

Any request to "close" a thread is at the sole discretion of admin.

[JimGant]

19 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The operational practicalities of the case are not proven, there is no independent evidence to state that his assessable income level was exceeded.

 

When somebody says they were, "well over the assessable income level", the difference between the 220,000 baht income threshold level and his probable TEDA level of 500,000 baht,  is only 280,000 baht, that's only USD 7.7k which is not a huge amount. So it's difficult to be "well over", I think you'd agree.

Haven't the foggiest what you're talking about..... Grumpy said assessable levels exceeded, but hadn't reached taxable income level. Thus, no requirement to file -- as verified by MPG.

 

So, what does the "well over" (or 5 baht over) have to do with the requirement to file   ?

 

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

16 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Haven't the foggiest what you're talking about..... Grumpy said assessable levels exceeded, but hadn't reached taxable income level. Thus, no requirement to file -- as verified by MPG.

 

So, what does the "well over" (or 5 baht over) have to do with the requirement to file   ?

 

 

Thanks again Jim - but lets just let it go - he seems to always want to argue he is correct and that unless we get it in writing signed by the TRD that we are wrong. Best not to respond and just ignore any bickering/argumentative posts. I have made my point and proved it and I thank you for 'defending' me, but lets just let it go and move forward - tomorrow is another day and maybe then TRD will provide some definitive advice.

 

[Mike Lister]

34 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Haven't the foggiest what you're talking about..... Grumpy said assessable levels exceeded, but hadn't reached taxable income level. Thus, no requirement to file -- as verified by MPG.

 

So, what does the "well over" (or 5 baht over) have to do with the requirement to file   ?

 

 

The letter I would like to see, which may help convince me, is something along the lines of the following, and this will answer your question also.

 

Dear Tax Consultants,

 

I'm trying to understand if I need to file a tax return in Thailand. I calculate that I have assessable income of 500,000, which is well above the (technical) filing threshold. But I have TEDA of 500,000 which I calculate, means I shouldn't have to pay tax any tax. My question is, do I have to file a return?

 

Luv

 

If I can see something in writing from a reputable well known tax consultancy that answers that question, I will accept the answer, as long as it's clear and definitive. 

 

Now, a question for Jim before I get back to my painting: If you get called into the TRD offices to talk about your return, the one where you said common sense/stupid etc, is there a special review team that deals only in common sence or do you just get assigned the normal investigators?

 

 

[ElwoodP]

Some of you appear to be forgetting basic forum rules.

Any post discussing another poster will be removed.

Any post quoting someone discussing another poster will be removed.

 

Really guys, stick to the rules, be polite and civil at all times and your posts will stay for all to read.

 

Posting holidays are about to start for those who want to discuss other posters so stop now!

[JimGant]

3 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Thanks again Jim - but lets just let it go

Gotcha, mate. You and I need to have a beer or two...