Ukraine ... Enlighten yourself

[Cameroni]

33 minutes ago, thaibreaker said:

You can not be serious. I have read all your posts in the thread, and wow, all your talking points must be straight from Kremlin itself.

 

I live in one of Russia's neighboring countries, and trust me, I know Russians, their mindset and what they are capable of. I have never seen anyone using so many words as you do, and still having no clue about this war. I would be embarrassed.

 

I guess you are American, who has watched a youtube video or two. Try living as a neighbour to Russia your whole life, and you will find out what "fine country" this is. The West or NATO is not responsible for this war. That's a big NO. No freaking way. There is a reason countries in Eastern Europe apply for membership of NATO, that is because they are afraid of Russia, and need security. Because of Russian aggression. Finland and Sweden are now members, and Russia can thank themselves for that.

 

This war has only one aggressor and evil side, and that is Russia.

They lost Ukraine in 1991, new international borders were drawn and accepted by the EU, Russia need to live with it, like any other country.

 

You clearly don't know Russians very well, and you know history even less. 

 

If you did you would know that Russia was deceived by NATO, lied to by NATO and NATO expanded towards Russia even though it promised not to do so. Even though Russia repeatedly voiced its concerns against this NATO encirclement. Even at the Bucharest NATO conference in 2008 where Putin was invited and strongly objected to the announcment Ukraine will become a NATO member.

 

You would also know that Ukraine refused to pay its gas bill, banned Russia social media and generally left the Donbass to rot.

 

For your information I have been to Russia many times and know Russians very well.

 

The West is most definitely responsible for this war in Ukraine. Don't tell me you don't know that Boris Johnson flew into Ukraine after Russia and Ukraine had already been negotiating and Zelesnky had publicly announced that Ukraine would not join NATO, they were about to sign when Boris Johnson told Zelensky if he signed the West will not support Ukraine, let us just fight and we will supply billions of dollars and weapons. All of course, with the aim to weaken Russia. The Ukraine war is a conpiracy by the West over many years and culminating in this Boris Johnson visit. The West is the evil side. The Russians are the good guys here. 

 

It is Ukraine that needs to live next to Russia. And if Ukraine cannot stop poking Russia in the eye with a stick, then it will have to pay the price.

[BarraMarra]

If I remember Thaibreaker Putin was bragging that the Russian flag would be raised within a week over kyiv. He got that wrong and the Ukrainian Army not only stopped it but pushed them back before the West started giving them the hardware.

[bangadang]

RFK is a decent man who speaks the truth, and most don't like it.

[bangadang]

19 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

You clearly don't know Russians very well, and you know history even less. 

 

If you did you would know that Russia was deceived by NATO, lied to by NATO and NATO expanded towards Russia even though it promised not to do so. Even though Russia repeatedly voiced its concerns against this NATO encirclement. Even at the Bucharest NATO conference in 2008 where Putin was invited and strongly objected to the announcment Ukraine will become a NATO member.

 

You would also know that Ukraine refused to pay its gas bill, banned Russia social media and generally left the Donbass to rot.

 

For your information I have been to Russia many times and know Russians very well.

 

The West is most definitely responsible for this war in Ukraine. Don't tell me you don't know that Boris Johnson flew into Ukraine after Russia and Ukraine had already been negotiating and Zelesnky had publicly announced that Ukraine would not join NATO, they were about to sign when Boris Johnson told Zelensky if he signed the West will not support Ukraine, let us just fight and we will supply billions of dollars and weapons. All of course, with the aim to weaken Russia. The Ukraine war is a conpiracy by the West over many years and culminating in this Boris Johnson visit. The West is the evil side. The Russians are the good guys here. 

 

It is Ukraine that needs to live next to Russia. And if Ukraine cannot stop poking Russia in the eye with a stick, then it will have to pay the price.

 

Thank you - I have also been to Russia many times, and what you outline is, in fact, the truth, but it will be buried in people's bias and lightly thought-out opinions as served to them by MSM.

[RayC]

5 hours ago, bangadang said:

 

Thank you - I have also been to Russia many times, and what you outline is, in fact, the truth, but it will be buried in people's bias and lightly thought-out opinions as served to them by MSM.

 

So the MSM such as the BBC, CNN, etc with all its' resources is unable to verify and validate its' articles, and is thus unable to produce "the truth", while the alternative media e.g. the one man behind "Buster's blog", has immediate access to verifiable and validity data and is therefore able to publish unquestionable facts. 

 

Quite the conundrum.

[thaibreaker]

On 10/10/2024 at 2:04 PM, Cameroni said:

 

You clearly don't know Russians very well, and you know history even less. 

 

If you did you would know that Russia was deceived by NATO, lied to by NATO and NATO expanded towards Russia even though it promised not to do so. Even though Russia repeatedly voiced its concerns against this NATO encirclement. Even at the Bucharest NATO conference in 2008 where Putin was invited and strongly objected to the announcment Ukraine will become a NATO member.

 

You would also know that Ukraine refused to pay its gas bill, banned Russia social media and generally left the Donbass to rot.

 

For your information I have been to Russia many times and know Russians very well.

 

The West is most definitely responsible for this war in Ukraine. Don't tell me you don't know that Boris Johnson flew into Ukraine after Russia and Ukraine had already been negotiating and Zelesnky had publicly announced that Ukraine would not join NATO, they were about to sign when Boris Johnson told Zelensky if he signed the West will not support Ukraine, let us just fight and we will supply billions of dollars and weapons. All of course, with the aim to weaken Russia. The Ukraine war is a conpiracy by the West over many years and culminating in this Boris Johnson visit. The West is the evil side. The Russians are the good guys here. 

 

It is Ukraine that needs to live next to Russia. And if Ukraine cannot stop poking Russia in the eye with a stick, then it will have to pay the price.

This is so BS, and so full of lies, I have no intention discussing this with you. What a load of crap.

All Kremlin takling points, bla bla bla. There was never a Zelensky deal.

 

I know perfectly well all about Russia and Russians, I am half Russian, I was born in that godless country. 

[BarraMarra]

His posts are just to wind up members Thaibreaker just ignore him. He cast's his line out hoping for a bite, he will disappear then and now and again return on other threads doing the same.

[nauseus]

On 10/1/2024 at 3:25 PM, RayC said:

 

You are, of course, completely correct.

 

I got as far as Kennedy "explaining" that Gorbachev bargained German unification for Baker's assurance of no eastwards NATO expansion, before giving up: Complete and utter nonsense.

 

Firstly, Baker was not in a position to give such assurances. Secondly, Gorbachev had no real say in the matter wrt East Germany. It was not a question of what Russia wanted to do with East Germany, rather would West Germany accept reunification, on what terms and would West Germany's allies in the EU, notably France and the UK, be supportive of reunification (initially at least, both Mitterrand and Thatcher had reservations and were lukewarm in their support).

 

Oh, by the way Ted. The Berlin Wall fell in 1989, not 1991 as you stated. How can anyone take seriously a man who can't even get the basic facts regarding dates correct?

 

If you care for facts, then you might remember that the EU did not exist as such when there was a West Germany,

 

And here's some light reading pertinent to your "nonsense" comment above:

 

\

Declassified documents show security assurances against NATO expansion to Soviet leaders from Baker, Bush, Genscher, Kohl, Gates, Mitterrand, Thatcher, Hurd, Major, and Woerner.

Slavic Studies Panel Addresses “Who Promised What to Whom on NATO Expansion?”

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

 

 

 

[Cameroni]

On 10/11/2024 at 4:16 AM, bangadang said:

 

Thank you - I have also been to Russia many times, and what you outline is, in fact, the truth, but it will be buried in people's bias and lightly thought-out opinions as served to them by MSM.

 

Thank you for your kind comments. Some people  can look at reality and  judge it on its merits. Others have to invent a wholly imaginary narrative since they want to view Ukraine as the innocent hero, but it is a lot more complicated than that.

 

I still stand by what I said, in this conflict it was Russia that was lied to and Russia has a right to  protect its territorial integrity, including by the means of war.

[RayC]

19 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

Thank you for your kind comments. Some people  can look at reality and  judge it on its merits. Others have to invent a wholly imaginary narrative since they want to view Ukraine as the innocent hero, but it is a lot more complicated than that.

 

I still stand by what I said, in this conflict it was Russia that was lied to and Russia has a right to  protect its territorial integrity, including by the means of war.

 

You are perfectly entitled to your opinion, but to imply that those who share that opinion, " ... can look at reality and judge it on its merits ... (while those who hold to an alternative viewpoint) ....  have to invent a wholly imaginary narrative", is imo diametrically opposite to the truth.

[RayC]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

 

If you care for facts, then you might remember that the EU did not exist as such when there was a West Germany,

 

Nothing more than pedantry, as replacing 'EU' with 'EEC' has absolutely no effect on my argument. However, if it makes you happy: You're right. The EU did not exist in 1991, so I should have stated, " ...would West Germany's allies in the EEC ...

 

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

And here's some light reading pertinent to your "nonsense" comment above:

 

\

Declassified documents show security assurances against NATO expansion to Soviet leaders from Baker, Bush, Genscher, Kohl, Gates, Mitterrand, Thatcher, Hurd, Major, and Woerner.

Slavic Studies Panel Addresses “Who Promised What to Whom on NATO Expansion?”

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

 

 

 

 

The article was linked to on page 2 of this thread and I replied to it there. I'm surprised that you didn't notice that.

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, RayC said:

 

Nothing more than pedantry, as replacing 'EU' with 'EEC' has absolutely no effect on my argument. However, if it makes you happy: You're right. The EU did not exist in 1991, so I should have stated, " ...would West Germany's allies in the EEC ...

 

 

The article was linked to on page 2 of this thread and I replied to it there. I'm surprised that you didn't notice that.

 

Well I'm not because I just looked back and it's not there.

[RayC]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

 

Well I'm not because I just looked back and it's not there.

 

Apologies my mistake. The link was posted by KhunLa on P1. My reply is on P2.

[nauseus]

14 hours ago, RayC said:

 

Apologies my mistake. The link was posted by KhunLa on P1. My reply is on P2.

 

Well thank you.

 

It wasn't merely the article so much as the links with it, which were quite detailed in themselves. I honestly can't remember the truth of them all but they basically agree with what I do recall. It was all softly softly detente in those days but the main problem seems to be that rules of NATO expansion after German reunification, or the limits of it, were not clearly defined and agreed in any formal treaty but were rather assumed, after a series verbal promises from Baker etc.

 

Maybe because Yeltsin was hammered all day? Not sure.

[BarraMarra]

Lets not forget Russia has targeted Civilian, infrastructure, committed numerous war crimes and Genocide, kidnapped Ukrainian kids and he and his Cohorts have arrests warrants on them. Once you Target Maternity hospitals and shopping centers you must be punished by all means necessary.

[johng]

On 10/15/2024 at 12:43 PM, BarraMarra said:

Once you Target Maternity hospitals and shopping centers you must be punished by all means necessary.

How about nuclear power plants  is it ok to shell them ?  or perhaps gas pipelines they are fair game right ?

[BarraMarra]

Nuclear plants are still and will remain operating unless Putin lobbs a missile into it then Russia will be punished. Gas lines are different. There is a bit of a difference between killing pregnant mothers  and blowing up a gas pipe.

[johng]

8 minutes ago, BarraMarra said:

Nuclear plants are still and will remain operating unless Putin lobbs a missile into it then Russia will be punished.

You really have no idea who is shelling nuclear power plants ,blowing up dams to try cutting off cooling water and cause a meltdown  or who blew up the pipe lines supplying vital energy to a supposed  European ally.

 

Pregnant mothers and kidnapped kids I would put in the same basket as the decapitated babies that Biden talked about  and then his handlers had to backtrack on  ie:  propaganda.

 

As an aside you also know that the US does not abide by ICC rules  and even has statutes in place that allow for the military extraction of any US citizen from the Hague  who might be brought there on charges !!!

 

[BarraMarra]

Come on then tell us all what Radiation has  leaked outside the Exclusion zone around the  Zaporizhzhia plant do you know why ?? its because it is not generating and all reactors are shut down but there is a danger of fall out if it is targeted. 1 reactor caused the worlds worst disaster Zaporizhzhia has 6.It is rumored that Ukraine targeted Russian forces that had took over the Station. So stop talking nonsense about me not knowing whats been going on. Why do you have to bring Biden into this thread nothing to do with America. 

[frank83628]

On 10/11/2024 at 2:37 AM, BarraMarra said:

If I remember Thaibreaker Putin was bragging that the Russian flag would be raised within a week over kyiv. He got that wrong and the Ukrainian Army not only stopped it but pushed them back before the West started giving them the hardware.

Putin was never going to Kiev, seem you got it all wrong.

[frank83628]

On 10/15/2024 at 12:43 PM, BarraMarra said:

Lets not forget Russia has targeted Civilian, infrastructure, committed numerous war crimes and Genocide, kidnapped Ukrainian kids and he and his Cohorts have arrests warrants on them. Once you Target Maternity hospitals and shopping centers you must be punished by all means necessary.

yes, those evil dictators always targeting hospitals, women and kids. gullible . com.

 

have you ever head of the term 'manufacturing conscent'? google it, you might learn something.

[frank83628]

51 minutes ago, BarraMarra said:

Nuclear plants are still and will remain operating unless Putin lobbs a missile into it then Russia will be punished. Gas lines are different. There is a bit of a difference between killing pregnant mothers  and blowing up a gas pipe.

there is also a difference between fact and fiction

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, frank83628 said:

Putin was never going to Kiev, seem you got it all wrong.

You're wrong.

[Jingthing]

57 minutes ago, frank83628 said:

yes, those evil dictators always targeting hospitals, women and kids. gullible . com.

 

have you ever head of the term 'manufacturing conscent'? google it, you might learn something.

You sound exactly like a brainwashed Z Russian.

[jacob29]

On 10/14/2024 at 3:40 PM, Cameroni said:

I still stand by what I said, in this conflict it was Russia that was lied to and Russia has a right to  protect its territorial integrity, including by the means of war.

Wonderful. I guess Belarus is fair game for an invasion by Europe if they decide it's necessary for territorial integrity?

 

Seems to me buffer states should still have the ultimate say in what they decide to do, not be dictated to by their larger neighbours, on threat of invasion.

[jerrymahoney]

Thanks. I got as far as "Robert F. Kennedy Jr. explains ..."

[thaibeachlovers]

On 10/15/2024 at 6:43 PM, BarraMarra said:

Lets not forget Russia has targeted Civilian, infrastructure, committed numerous war crimes and Genocide, kidnapped Ukrainian kids and he and his Cohorts have arrests warrants on them. Once you Target Maternity hospitals and shopping centers you must be punished by all means necessary.

Does that apply only to Russia?

[BarraMarra]

I could post a link supporting Putin's remarks about flying Russia's flag over the Ukrainian parliament building but certain members will dismiss this as fiction so I wont bother.