Keir Starmer’s EU Reset: A Strategy Built on Falsehoods

[JonnyF]

6 hours ago, RayC said:

The EU and the UK are in decline but the UK will decline quicker and further outside the EU than within.

 

No it won't.

 

The UK has left, we will avoid going down with that sinking ship.

 

Unless of course, Starmer gets offered some more freebies by the likes of Von Der Leyen during these "reset" negotiations. Then he'll happily sign us down the river. 

[RayC]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

 

No it won't.

 

The UK has left, we will avoid going down with that sinking ship.

 

Unless of course, Starmer gets offered some more freebies by the likes of Von Der Leyen during these "reset" negotiations. Then he'll happily sign us down the river. 

 

Combined value of the EU internal market = $14.52 trillion.

 

Value of the UK market = $3.089 trillion.

 

If you are India, China, the US or anyone else for that matter, it is pretty clear which market you would look to prioritise.

 

You give the typical Brexiter response in saying that having left the EU, the UK will avoid a decline. However, again in typical Brexiter fashion, you offer no indication about how this is to be achieved.

 

Even if your prediction about relative decline does prove to be correct, how long will it take for the size of the UK market to approach that of the EU?

 

As I previously said, the UK's role on the international stage is diminished outside of the EU. The 'special relationship' with the US hasn't been so special since we left the EU. The UK is of use to the US due to our NATO membership, but our importance to the US is diminished now that we are outside of the EU. Irrespective of whether Harris or Trump wins the election, nothing is likely to chance wrt the US's relationship with the UK.

 

The confrontational attitude towards the EU adopted by Johnson, which you appear to favour, has proven to be a dismal failure. Even the hapless Truss seemingly recognised this, as shown by her attending the first European Political Community summit and offering warm words to Macron. Sunak continued to repair the damage done by Johnson and it is to be hoped that Starmer can improve our relationship further.

[nauseus]

On 10/5/2024 at 5:21 PM, RayC said:

This article - which is almost entirely devoid of anything that might be considered a fact - was written by Lord David Frost: That's right, the very same David Frost who was Boris Johnson's Chief Brexit negotiator, and who was instrumental in negotiating the existing EU-UK Trade and Co-operation Agreement, which almost everyone - Leaver or Remainer - agrees is a bad deal for the UK.

 

The UK had a bad hand to play during the Brexit negotiations; Frost made that hand worse by his incorrect reading - and inept playing - of the situation.

 

He now has the gall to lecture others on how to negotiate with the EU. You couldn't make this up if you tried.

 

The comment in this piece seems generally factual to me. Yes, the WA and the TCA were poor for the UK but the guts of the first one were little to do with Lord Frost, who entered the fray late on and was assigned the task of making the best job he could of  modifying May's "Chequers Agreement", which was the only way to get any agreement with the EU. Critical elements of the WA were demanded by the EU and only modified by the UK, from May's midnight flit to Germany, probably had to have Merkel's blessing. 

 

The TCA was relatively rushed but Frost was under pressure from Johnson to "get Brexit done". Negotiations with the EU were already known to be lacking in the good faith department anyway and the clock was running.

[nauseus]

 

11 minutes ago, RayC said:

You give the typical Brexiter response in saying that having left the EU, the UK will avoid a decline. However, again in typical Brexiter fashion, you offer no indication about how this is to be achieved.

 

Pretty obvious. Stay out.

[RayC]

5 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

 

Pretty obvious. Stay out.

 

Yeah. That's working a treat so far.

[retarius]

Starmer is pathetic. Power doesn't take long to corrupt, does it? Labour.....still haven't got it.....the massive 2% swing to Labour from the Cornyn election should have told you something......do I have to doff my cap to SIR? Nah just tell him to <deleted>.

[retarius]

29 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

Combined value of the EU internal market = $14.52 trillion.

 

Value of the UK market = $3.089 trillion.

 

If you are India, China, the US or anyone else for that matter, it is pretty clear which market you would look to prioritise.

 

You give the typical Brexiter response in saying that having left the EU, the UK will avoid a decline. However, again in typical Brexiter fashion, you offer no indication about how this is to be achieved.

 

Even if your prediction about relative decline does prove to be correct, how long will it take for the size of the UK market to approach that of the EU?

 

As I previously said, the UK's role on the international stage is diminished outside of the EU. The 'special relationship' with the US hasn't been so special since we left the EU. The UK is of use to the US due to our NATO membership, but our importance to the US is diminished now that we are outside of the EU. Irrespective of whether Harris or Trump wins the election, nothing is likely to chance wrt the US's relationship with the UK.

 

The confrontational attitude towards the EU adopted by Johnson, which you appear to favour, has proven to be a dismal failure. Even the hapless Truss seemingly recognised this, as shown by her attending the first European Political Community summit and offering warm words to Macron. Sunak continued to repair the damage done by Johnson and it is to be hoped that Starmer can improve our relationship further.

A totally spurious argument. When Britain was in the EU it was still only a tiny share of the EU GDP and the UK only had small share. Where it is now depends upon business performance, productivity, innovation and salesmanship. But that hasn't changed since it was in the UK. The UK is doomed as key jobs are taken by DEI candidates and companies decline because performance is no longer based on merit. 

[RayC]

15 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

The comment in this piece seems generally factual to me. Yes, the WA and the TCA were poor for the UK but the guts of the first one were little to do with Lord Frost, who entered the fray late on and was assigned the task of making the best job he could of  modifying May's "Chequers Agreement", which was the only way to get any agreement with the EU. Critical elements of the WA were demanded by the EU and only modified by the UK, from May's midnight flit to Germany, probably had to have Merkel's blessing. 

 

The TCA was relatively rushed but Frost was under pressure from Johnson to "get Brexit done". Negotiations with the EU were already known to be lacking in the good faith department anyway and the clock was running.

 

It is an opinion piece, nothing more. I've re-read the original Telegraph article and there is little hard evidence offered. For example, Frost casually states, "Similarly, it’s far from clear why we need a food and veterinary agreement." Perhaps, he should have delved a bit more deeply into the subject.

 

 https://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/veterinary-agreements/#:~:text=A recent study estimates a,in 2023 was £150bn.

 

I don't doubt that there are numerous other instances where hard evidence can be supplied to oppose his view.

 

Frost also states that, "It’s crucial at the early stage of any negotiation to have a clear idea of what is really in your interest and what you might be prepared to give to get it." For once, I am in total agreement with him. Unfortunately, Teresa May and David Davis apparently had no idea of what they wanted and how to get it. Of course, Frost can't be blamed for this but it does beg the question, was the eventual TCA indicative of his clear thinking on the matter?

 

You state that, "The TCA was relatively rushed but Frost was under pressure from Johnson to "get Brexit done"." Agreed but why the rush? Johnson had rid the CPP of Remainer MPs and he had a 80-seat majority. Unlike May, Johnson was in a position to get any negotiated Agreement through Parliament. No doubt the EU would have been mighty cheesed off if Johnson had gone to Brussels and effectively said, 'Forget the past 2+ years of negotiations, let's start again'. Nevertheless, as you correctly point out, good faith was in pretty short supply at the time. What is the worse that could have happened? The EU could have refused to negotiate further and 'No Deal' would have been the outcome. While imo this would have been even more of a disaster for the UK than the current TCA, it could have been a political bonus for Johnson. He could've taken the moral high ground by blaming the EU for the breakdown in negotiations, whilst at the same time giving the Flat Earthers (ERG) exactly what they wanted.

[RayC]

17 minutes ago, retarius said:

A totally spurious argument. When Britain was in the EU it was still only a tiny share of the EU GDP and the UK only had small share. Where it is now depends upon business performance, productivity, innovation and salesmanship. But that hasn't changed since it was in the UK. The UK is doomed as key jobs are taken by DEI candidates and companies decline because performance is no longer based on merit. 

 

And you think my argument spurious😂

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, RayC said:

 

It is an opinion piece, nothing more. I've re-read the original Telegraph article and there is little hard evidence offered. For example, Frost casually states, "Similarly, it’s far from clear why we need a food and veterinary agreement." Perhaps, he should have delved a bit more deeply into the subject.

 

 https://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/veterinary-agreements/#:~:text=A recent study estimates a,in 2023 was £150bn.

 

I don't doubt that there are numerous other instances where hard evidence can be supplied to oppose his view.

 

Frost also states that, "It’s crucial at the early stage of any negotiation to have a clear idea of what is really in your interest and what you might be prepared to give to get it." For once, I am in total agreement with him. Unfortunately, Teresa May and David Davis apparently had no idea of what they wanted and how to get it. Of course, Frost can't be blamed for this but it does beg the question, was the eventual TCA indicative of his clear thinking on the matter?

 

You state that, "The TCA was relatively rushed but Frost was under pressure from Johnson to "get Brexit done"." Agreed but why the rush? Johnson had rid the CPP of Remainer MPs and he had a 80-seat majority. Unlike May, Johnson was in a position to get any negotiated Agreement through Parliament. No doubt the EU would have been mighty cheesed off if Johnson had gone to Brussels and effectively said, 'Forget the past 2+ years of negotiations, let's start again'. Nevertheless, as you correctly point out, good faith was in pretty short supply at the time. What is the worse that could have happened? The EU could have refused to negotiate further and 'No Deal' would have been the outcome. While imo this would have been even more of a disaster for the UK than the current TCA, it could have been a political bonus for Johnson. He could've taken the moral high ground by blaming the EU for the breakdown in negotiations, whilst at the same time giving the Flat Earthers (ERG) exactly what they wanted.

 

Teresa May was a remainer. David Davis was a leaver. So although he was appointed Brexit Secretary, May surreptitiously undermined Davis by giving Robbins effective charge of any real "negotiations". Davis had had enough of this bs by the time May came back from Germany in July 2018 and he quit. May should never have been PM. 

 

The "Brexit done" rush was all about Boris's determination for a Brexit conclusion by end 2020. An ego thing probably. As you say, this TCA is probably better for the UK than nothing, lousy as it is. 

 

 

[RayC]

3 hours ago, nauseus said:

 

Teresa May was a remainer. David Davis was a leaver. So although he was appointed Brexit Secretary, May surreptitiously undermined Davis by giving Robbins effective charge of any real "negotiations". Davis had had enough of this bs by the time May came back from Germany in July 2018 and he quit. May should never have been PM. 

 

The "Brexit done" rush was all about Boris's determination for a Brexit conclusion by end 2020. An ego thing probably. As you say, this TCA is probably better for the UK than nothing, lousy as it is. 

 

 

 

I would broadly agree with that.

 

It supports my contention that there was never a plan for Brexit. Cameron, May, Johnson: None of them had the faintest idea what they wanted from Brexit, let alone how to get there.

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, RayC said:

 

I would broadly agree with that.

 

It supports my contention that there was never a plan for Brexit. Cameron, May, Johnson: None of them had the faintest idea what they wanted from Brexit, let alone how to get there.

 

I would broadly agree with that.

 

Cameron's responsibility. Another complete let-down.

[nauseus]

On 10/5/2024 at 7:56 PM, bradiston said:

The EU cannot tolerate a major independent economy adjacent to its own? You mean like Switzerland, Norway and most of the Balkan states?

 

The first two have better but much smaller economies than the UK. They also had the sense to negotiate their own relationship outside of full EU membership -ever wonder why?

[bradiston]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

 

The first two have better but much smaller economies than the UK. They also had the sense to negotiate their own relationship outside of full EU membership -ever wonder why?

Ask the OP.

[nauseus]

31 minutes ago, bradiston said:

Ask the OP.

 

Useless.

[bradiston]

3 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

Useless.

I just mentioned them in response to the OP's post. Check that out. I'm not here to be of use to you.

[JonnyF]

He's been caught lying about his families military service now.

 

What is it with these Liberals and lies. They can't help themselves. 

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1959777/keir-Starmer-Falklands-war-uncle-torpedoed-claims

 

[josephbloggs]

16 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

He's been caught lying about his families military service now.

 

What is it with these Liberals and lies. They can't help themselves. 

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1959777/keir-Starmer-Falklands-war-uncle-torpedoed-claims

 

 

Scraping the barrel, even for you.

He said "torpedoed" rather than "bombed". A misuse of a word. His uncle was on a ship in the Falklands that was attacked and sunk. It wasn't a torpedo though, it was bombed from the air. It was even in your "article". Only reading the headlines again Jonny? 

The Prime Minister's uncle was aboard the British frigate HMS Antelope which was sunk during the conflict to reclaim the islands.

If he had made up the entire thing and his uncle wasn't on any ship that was sunk or wasn't involved in the war you would have a point. But his uncle was on a ship that was attacked and sunk.  He is clearly not lying about his family's military service. As it stands you look desperate and pathetic really. Is that really all you've got?

[JonnyF]

2 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

Is that really all you've got?

 

Mis-spoke? Just like Walz I guess. What a "knucklehead". 

 

But no, I have plenty more.

 

Turns out the free Swift tickets were in exchange for a VVIP police escort. 

 

What a clown show.

 

https://surgeradio.cl/opiniones/how-top-labour-politicians-pressed-police-to-give-taylor-swift-vvip-protection-that-prince-harry-cant-get-and-enjoyed-free-concert-tickets/135944/

 

[bradiston]

48 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

He's been caught lying about his families military service now.

 

What is it with these Liberals and lies. They can't help themselves. 

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1959777/keir-Starmer-Falklands-war-uncle-torpedoed-claims

 

The Daily Express? Do me a favour. Stop your muckraking. You're worse than Ruangkrai!  And his uncle was on a ship bombed by Argentina itvturns out. Yap yap yap. Like a miniature poodle.

[JonnyF]

1 minute ago, bradiston said:

The Daily Express?

 

Even The Guardian have turned on him.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/08/keir-starmer-unforced-error-machine-squandered-electoral-capital

 

Tick tock for 2 tier, free gear Keir. 

[josephbloggs]

5 hours ago, JonnyF said:

 

Mis-spoke? Just like Walz I guess. What a "knucklehead". 

 

But no, I have plenty more.

 

Turns out the free Swift tickets were in exchange for a VVIP police escort. 

 

What a clown show.

 

https://surgeradio.cl/opiniones/how-top-labour-politicians-pressed-police-to-give-taylor-swift-vvip-protection-that-prince-harry-cant-get-and-enjoyed-free-concert-tickets/135944/

 

There you go again with more tripe. Two things happened:

 

1. Keir got two tickets for Taylor Swift (as did other MPs from various sources including the FA). He has since paid for them.
2. Taylor Swift got a police convoy after the Met assessed it and decided it was necessary given credible threats against her. The Met independently do their risk assessments and they alone decide who gets protection.

 

The two things have NOTHING to do with each other. Again, read your article, don't just live your life by headlines. And so when you say: Turns out the free Swift tickets were in exchange for a VVIP police escort.  that is a bare faced lie. You can't be taken seriously at all.

Is Starmer an inspirational leader? Not for me. Has he made some errors of judgement? Yes, he should be seen to be squeaky clean even if what he is doing is not breaking any rules.

However, do I prefer him to the past few "leaders" with their blatant lies and rampant corruption: PPE contracts worth millions given to mates and donors with no processes in place and given to companies with NO EXPERIENCE of procuring PPEs, their only qualification being personal friendships with those in power. The most disgusting corruption. And the expenses fiddling, the disregard for the public. Compared to a couple of concert tickets.

Your double standards are amazing.

[JonnyF]

5 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

There you go again with more tripe. Two things happened:

 

1. Keir got two tickets for Taylor Swift (as did other MPs from various sources including the FA). He has since paid for them.
2. Taylor Swift got a police convoy after the Met assessed it and decided it was necessary given credible threats against her. The Met independently do their risk assessments and they alone decide who gets protection.

 

The two things have NOTHING to do with each other. Again, read your article, don't just live your life by headlines. And so when you say: Turns out the free Swift tickets were in exchange for a VVIP police escort.  that is a bare faced lie. You can't be taken seriously at all.

Is Starmer an inspirational leader? Not for me. Has he made some errors of judgement? Yes, he should be seen to be squeaky clean even if what he is doing is not breaking any rules.

However, do I prefer him to the past few "leaders" with their blatant lies and rampant corruption: PPE contracts worth millions given to mates and donors with no processes in place and given to companies with NO EXPERIENCE of procuring PPEs, their only qualification being personal friendships with those in power. The most disgusting corruption. And the expenses fiddling, the disregard for the public. Compared to a couple of concert tickets.

Your double standards are amazing.

 

The government pressured The Met in exchange for free tickets.

 

Clown show.

[josephbloggs]

8 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

The government pressured The Met in exchange for free tickets.

 

Repeating a lie doesn't make it any more true.

There is no evidence in your article that anything like that happened, nor could it happen as they don't have that influence. "Give us free tickets and we'll make sure Swifty gets a police convoy". And then it happened. Really, you do have some odd fantasies.

Lies lies lies. Yet you ignore actual proven corruption by your Tory chums.

Edited October 10 by josephbloggs

[JonnyF]

2 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

Repeating a lie doesn't make it any more true.

There is no evidence in your article that anything like that happened, nor could it happen as they don't have that influence.

Lies lies lies. Yet you ignore actual proven corruption by your Tory chums.

 

Plenty of evidence.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13942983/Home-Secretary-Yvette-Cooper-DID-attend-Taylor-Swifts-concert-free-VIP-escort-Met-Police.html

 

You and your freebie taking chums at Labour have been caught red handed. So much so, that your hero Free gear Keir actually handed some of it back. 

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/10/02/starmer-gifts-donations-row-taylor-swift/

 

 

[Sir Dude]

Well, it's the usual socialist nonsense regarding "We can get it right this time..." despite every historical case study being a complete failure, history and the present is littlered with examples of the folly of the far left.... UK will be in the toilet soon as business, job creators, the wealthy that pay 60% of the tax revenue etc. etc. will flee. Giving unions and public service workers ridiculous pay rises just to politically placate them is a way to disaster... Liebour haven't changed at all, but hey, screw the elderly and be a new nasty party. labour in it's courrent form won't last long as the politics of envy is clearly alive and well in their ranks. I could go on... but pfft! Venezuela here we come soon.

[Cameroni]

Keir Starmer is not British, he is a German agent. His real name is Klaus Stürmer. 

 

Virst we unleash ze ciwil war. Zen yoo givv up ze colonies. For nozzing..mwahahwhaha, for nozzing ad ahlll....hahahahaha

 

Zen, wen ze time is ripe, we vill bring Ursula to take full Kontrol. Mwahahahaha....

[Sir Dude]

Well, it's amateur hour from Labour and two-teir Kier... an awful performance in their first 100 days. Talk about a complete clusterF*** of a operation... hope all you morons that voted Liebour are happy as we are going down the rabbit hole of far leftiness, as it will be a disaster.

[Will B Good]

12 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

Keir Starmer is not British, he is a German agent. His real name is Klaus Stürmer. 

 

Virst we unleash ze ciwil war. Zen yoo givv up ze colonies. For nozzing..mwahahwhaha, for nozzing ad ahlll....hahahahaha

 

Zen, wen ze time is ripe, we vill bring Ursula to take full Kontrol. Mwahahahaha....

 

 

 

 

You've opened one or two cold ones a little early today?

 

 

 

 

[Cameroni]

14 minutes ago, Will B Good said:

 

 

 

 

You've opened one or two cold ones a little early today?

 

 

 

 

I am in celebration mood, just got a big Swiss client. Not EU!! NOT EU!! Do not lynch me!