Illegal land occupation

[w94005m]

My girlfriend has what seems to me to be an unusual situation with a piece of land purchased through a state government auction in Kalasin for 80,000B.

We checked the land out first at https://landsmaps.dol.go.th, which confirmed that it was as listed and an empty plot bordering a local road. I was a little surprised when we visited, that I could not find the official corner markers for the land, but put that down to them being covered in soil.

 

She was successful at the auction and then got it officially registered and the chanote in her name. This did take a few months, which I gather is not unusual.

However, when her parents went to look at the land, they were told that what was marked on the earlier mentioned website was incorrect and the chanote noted a different adjacent area with a house on it. It looked like a plot had been split and recorded accordingly with 2 different chanotes. The website was just wrong. The owner of the house on the land said they wouldn't move, although they also had a home on the land next to it.

My girlfriend and her family went to see a lawyer and he confirmed that the land had been registered correctly and my girlfriend was indeed the legally correct owner of the land. The auction had come about as the prior incumbent had put up that land as collateral for a car loan, which they had failed to repay. Hence, the auction via the province of Kalasin government. Initiated by the financing company, who had provided the loan. The lawyer said he could take the illegal occupant to court and force them to leave, but that would cost 30,000B in fees and expenses.

 

I felt that this would be a bad situation, being next door to an unhappy prior owner to say the least, but now it has gotten even more bizarre. It turns out this man is the headman of this village/town AND he is paid by the government, to use this land/house as the local district ombudsman. For which he probably gets a salary and rent for the office.

 

I feel the only option aside from swallowing the loss of 80,000B is to get this prior owner/headman to enter into an agreement to buy the land back. After all, he has built a house on it and his job needs that. He has claimed that he has no money and won't do anything. I feel the threat of legal action, which would mean the loss of house, potential loss of job, especially if it was chosen to press this with the local district should loosen his pocket. I am however, very nervous dealing with someone who clearly has influence and and appears to feel bulletproof.

 

I'm assuming that the only option is to give him a set period, say 6 - 12 months to pay an agreed sum, such that upon payment she would then be obligated to transfer ownership to him? If not satisfied, then pursue legal action.

 

She is emotionally vested in this land and does not want to lose the land for nothing.

[Cameroni]

15 minutes ago, w94005m said:

My girlfriend has what seems to me to be an unusual situation with a piece of land purchased through a state government auction in Kalasin for 80,000B.

We checked the land out first at https://landsmaps.dol.go.th, which confirmed that it was as listed and an empty plot bordering a local road. I was a little surprised when we visited, that I could not find the official corner markers for the land, but put that down to them being covered in soil.

 

She was successful at the auction and then got it officially registered and the chanote in her name. This did take a few months, which I gather is not unusual.

However, when her parents went to look at the land, they were told that what was marked on the earlier mentioned website was incorrect and the chanote noted a different adjacent area with a house on it. It looked like a plot had been split and recorded accordingly with 2 different chanotes. The website was just wrong. The owner of the house on the land said they wouldn't move, although they also had a home on the land next to it.

My girlfriend and her family went to see a lawyer and he confirmed that the land had been registered correctly and my girlfriend was indeed the legally correct owner of the land. The auction had come about as the prior incumbent had put up that land as collateral for a car loan, which they had failed to repay. Hence, the auction via the province of Kalasin government. Initiated by the financing company, who had provided the loan. The lawyer said he could take the illegal occupant to court and force them to leave, but that would cost 30,000B in fees and expenses.

 

I felt that this would be a bad situation, being next door to an unhappy prior owner to say the least, but now it has gotten even more bizarre. It turns out this man is the headman of this village/town AND he is paid by the government, to use this land/house as the local district ombudsman. For which he probably gets a salary and rent for the office.

 

I feel the only option aside from swallowing the loss of 80,000B is to get this prior owner/headman to enter into an agreement to buy the land back. After all, he has built a house on it and his job needs that. He has claimed that he has no money and won't do anything. I feel the threat of legal action, which would mean the loss of house, potential loss of job, especially if it was chosen to press this with the local district should loosen his pocket. I am however, very nervous dealing with someone who clearly has influence and and appears to feel bulletproof.

 

I'm assuming that the only option is to give him a set period, say 6 - 12 months to pay an agreed sum, such that upon payment she would then be obligated to transfer ownership to him? If not satisfied, then pursue legal action.

 

She is emotionally vested in this land and does not want to lose the land for nothing.

 

I agree with your proposed course of action in terms of pursuing legal action. However, I do not think he will play ball. If he has no money he has no money, and whether you give him 6 or 12 months it is unlikely he will pay. The only real option is to pursue an eviction and get him off the land. If you play nice with him, give him a long time to pay, this will be construed as weakness and he will drag things out and still not pay or leave. Only if a robust legal  document is presented would he change his mind to do something.

 

This is my belief.

[degrub]

Who was responsible for the website listing ?

If the finance company, then maybe go after them for fraud if there is a statute that covers this case for the cost of the land and legal fees, etc.

 

Otherwise, chalk it up to experience and walk away.

 

Is there a squatters law that allows someone to take possession of a property after occupying it for a number of years ?

Given he is headman, eviction just sounds like an opportunity for revenge  by making things as difficult as possible if someone moves there.

[w94005m]

35 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

I agree with your proposed course of action in terms of pursuing legal action. However, I do not think he will play ball. If he has no money he has no money, and whether you give him 6 or 12 months it is unlikely he will pay. The only real option is to pursue an eviction and get him off the land. If you play nice with him, give him a long time to pay, this will be construed as weakness and he will drag things out and still not pay or leave. Only if a robust legal  document is presented would he change his mind to do something.

 

This is my belief.

I agree, but the problem is that he owns the land next door and as headsman, doubtless everyone else there will support him.

 

Yes, there is a squatter's law in Thailand, which is very favourable to the squatter.

[w94005m]

38 minutes ago, degrub said:

Who was responsible for the website listing ?

If the finance company, then maybe go after them for fraud if there is a statute that covers this case for the cost of the land and legal fees, etc.

 

Otherwise, chalk it up to experience and walk away.

 

Is there a squatters law that allows someone to take possession of a property after occupying it for a number of years ?

Given he is headman, eviction just sounds like an opportunity for revenge  by making things as difficult as possible if someone moves there.

Official government website, so no opportunity there and sadly I agree that revenge would be almost guaranteed. Loss of face for a headsman would never sit.

[Cameroni]

5 minutes ago, w94005m said:

I agree, but the problem is that he owns the land next door and as headsman, doubtless everyone else there will support him.

 

Yes, there is a squatter's law in Thailand, which is very favourable to the squatter.

Yes, I understand it's not an optimal situation to have a disgruntled headsman next door. But you or the lady paid good money for this land. Lucky you paid a low price so the 30000 eviction cost is still tenable. 

 

How big is this land and what purpose did you have in mind? 

 

You could 

 

A) evict him and live with the disgruntled neighbour 

 

B) Evict him then sell the land

 

C) Try to work out a deal with him. If  you offer him 30000 to leave the land, maybe he would take it? 

 

Is there any other option? 

[w94005m]

4 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

Yes, I understand it's not an optimal situation to have a disgruntled headsman next door. But you or the lady paid good money for this land. Lucky you paid a low price so the 30000 eviction cost is still tenable. 

 

How big is this land and what purpose did you have in mind? 

 

You could 

 

A) evict him and live with the disgruntled neighbour 

 

B) Evict him then sell the land

 

C) Try to work out a deal with him. If  you offer him 30000 to leave the land, maybe he would take it? 

 

Is there any other option? 

A is not a consideration and that was part of the original thought of building a home there. as not too much soil was needed on what the government marked as the land. I would be fearful of having this person as a neighbor, so C is also not an option. A neighbour like that in a position of authority sounds like a nightmare to be avoided at all costs.

 

B I would be fearful of comeback from any purchaser.

 

I see the only option as getting some money from him. I don't believe that he has no money. A penniless headman with a separate home and land in a good location, doesn't add up. Losing the land when using it to make good money should mean something.

[newnative]

        my spouse and I know of several errors with land surveys.   One of our neighbors had his land plot remeasured and he found that the developer had erected his boundary wall about 50 cm wrong along the whole front of his property.  It made the road that much wider but he lost land that would have given him a little more space between his swimming pool and the wall.  50 cm might not seem like much but it can be when space is tight, and can be the difference between being able to navigate a space or not.  

       We also know of people having their land resurveyed by the government, only to find its either larger or smaller than on their documents.   No advice for the OP but anyone considering buying property with no visible land markers, and even those with markers, might consider having a new survey done before a purchase to verify what they are buying.  

[CanadaSam]

As degrub mentioned, I would ask the lawyer about going after the parties that actually sold you the land.

 

If that is possible, you obviously have a strong case buying a plot that is supposed to be vacant, but in actuality is occupied.

 

At the least, you would get a refund, if not additional damages for time and expenses.

 

 

[w94005m]

2 hours ago, CanadaSam said:

As degrub mentioned, I would ask the lawyer about going after the parties that actually sold you the land.

 

If that is possible, you obviously have a strong case buying a plot that is supposed to be vacant, but in actuality is occupied.

 

At the least, you would get a refund, if not additional damages for time and expenses.

 

 

That would be a nice scenario, but it was an official government run auction, presumably allowed after going through the courts. 

We had automatically dismissed consideration of any plots with property. Only wanting empty land, but I find it hard to believe we could possibly have any success pursuing action against the government province. I will consult yet another lawyer about that, as you and degrub noted that. Thanks.

[IvorBiggun2]

The OP keeps mentioning 'Chanote'. The land will have a title but not 'Chanote'. Don't buy land unless you know what you are doing. 

[IvorBiggun2]

Quote

Under Thai law, squatters who occupied another person's land without permission can eventually claim ownership of the said land parcels if the land's rightful owner was not able to evict them in a certain period of time.

 

[Crossy]

Adding a different tack, would there be any mileage in leasing/renting the space occupied by the house/village office to the current occupant?

 

[w94005m]

2 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Adding a different tack, would there be any mileage in leasing/renting the space occupied by the house/village office to the current occupant?

 

That is a good suggestion. I doubt he will be amendable, but we will pursue.

[Yellowtail]

How old is the squatter? 

[w94005m]

1 hour ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

The OP keeps mentioning 'Chanote'. The land will have a title but not 'Chanote'. Don't buy land unless you know what you are doing. 

The land was bought officially via government and detailed as such, for which my girlfriend now has the chanote (nor soi 4), which is the official title of the land. What is your problem with the use of chanote? It correctly distinguishes it from other lesser forms of title for the land, which I feel was appropriate to note. The problem is that it was misrepresented by Kalasin province (local government). We are not talking about some private deal. 

 

And yes as noted earlier, we are fully aware of squatters law in Thailand which would apply after 10 years.

[w94005m]

1 minute ago, Yellowtail said:

How old is the squatter? 

I believe he's in his 60's and in reasonable health

[IvorBiggun2]

19 minutes ago, w94005m said:

for which my girlfriend now has the chanote (nor soi 4), which is the official title of the land.

If the land is Nor Sor 4 as you claim then it's all singing all dancing. Your  girlfriend is very lucky to have bought a piece of Chanote land at such a cheap price. My wife and I bought a Rai and a quarter of Chanote titled land 19 years ago for 400,000. But exchange rates were somewhat different in those days.

[w94005m]

21 minutes ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

If the land is Nor Sor 4 as you claim then it's all singing all dancing. Your  girlfriend is very lucky to have bought a piece of Chanote land at such a cheap price. My wife and I bought a Rai and a quarter of Chanote titled land 19 years ago for 400,000. But exchange rates were somewhat different in those days.

It's not a big bit of land. Just over 1 ngan, but seemed ideal when we saw the purported empty plot with electric immediately to hand. Unfortunately, now with the full story which was not available, despite many questions to the govt office preceding the auction, we would not have touched it with a bargepole. She is not feeling lucky and neither am I 😞

The recommended lawyer which we are considering using to do the eviction has confirmed the chanote is all correct and there should not be a problem.

[MangoKorat]

To establish the factual boundaries - simply visit the land office.  If the land does have a channote, it doesn't matter if someone moves the corner markers or steals them completely - the GPS co-ordinates are recorded.

 

If you can get the 'squatter' to visit the land office with you, they might persuade him of the error of his ways.

 

Your local police force might 'evict' him for you at a cheaper rate than the lawyer.

 

A note of caution though - ask around with the locals, see if they know what's happened.  The 'squatter' could be trying it on or he could have been duped.

[khunPer]

15 hours ago, w94005m said:

My girlfriend has what seems to me to be an unusual situation with a piece of land purchased through a state government auction in Kalasin for 80,000B.

We checked the land out first at https://landsmaps.dol.go.th, which confirmed that it was as listed and an empty plot bordering a local road. I was a little surprised when we visited, that I could not find the official corner markers for the land, but put that down to them being covered in soil.

 

She was successful at the auction and then got it officially registered and the chanote in her name. This did take a few months, which I gather is not unusual.

However, when her parents went to look at the land, they were told that what was marked on the earlier mentioned website was incorrect and the chanote noted a different adjacent area with a house on it. It looked like a plot had been split and recorded accordingly with 2 different chanotes. The website was just wrong. The owner of the house on the land said they wouldn't move, although they also had a home on the land next to it.

My girlfriend and her family went to see a lawyer and he confirmed that the land had been registered correctly and my girlfriend was indeed the legally correct owner of the land. The auction had come about as the prior incumbent had put up that land as collateral for a car loan, which they had failed to repay. Hence, the auction via the province of Kalasin government. Initiated by the financing company, who had provided the loan. The lawyer said he could take the illegal occupant to court and force them to leave, but that would cost 30,000B in fees and expenses.

 

I felt that this would be a bad situation, being next door to an unhappy prior owner to say the least, but now it has gotten even more bizarre. It turns out this man is the headman of this village/town AND he is paid by the government, to use this land/house as the local district ombudsman. For which he probably gets a salary and rent for the office.

 

I feel the only option aside from swallowing the loss of 80,000B is to get this prior owner/headman to enter into an agreement to buy the land back. After all, he has built a house on it and his job needs that. He has claimed that he has no money and won't do anything. I feel the threat of legal action, which would mean the loss of house, potential loss of job, especially if it was chosen to press this with the local district should loosen his pocket. I am however, very nervous dealing with someone who clearly has influence and and appears to feel bulletproof.

 

I'm assuming that the only option is to give him a set period, say 6 - 12 months to pay an agreed sum, such that upon payment she would then be obligated to transfer ownership to him? If not satisfied, then pursue legal action.

 

She is emotionally vested in this land and does not want to lose the land for nothing.

Get the Land Office to measure the land and place new markers, so you know what is yours. All neighbours need to be present the day that the measuring is done.

[MangoKorat]

You might also ask the lawyer about the legal position in Thailand - I'm not sure on this one but in the UK, properly registered land should be sold with vacant possession unless otherwise stated and a seller can be sued if they state it is legally vacant when its not.  If the land is not actually vacant (legally), you might have a claim against the seller.

[MangoKorat]

15 hours ago, w94005m said:

I am however, very nervous dealing with someone who clearly has influence and and appears to feel bulletproof.

I think you are over estimating the man's importance and influence - he's just a village head man.

[Hummin]

Just give him the offer to buy the land, if not 30 000 is not much for a chanote land to clear up the legal rights. Hold the land as an investment. 

[donx]

Do you know who owns the vacant land that your girlfriend thought she was buying? It's not clear from the above discussion if that plot is owned by the man occupying the plot she bought or not. If he owns that adjacent plot of land, do you think you could convince him to swap properties?

[john donson]

how much for a bulldozer to level the place?

[Hummin]

10 hours ago, CanadaSam said:

As degrub mentioned, I would ask the lawyer about going after the parties that actually sold you the land.

 

If that is possible, you obviously have a strong case buying a plot that is supposed to be vacant, but in actuality is occupied.

 

At the least, you would get a refund, if not additional damages for time and expenses.

 

 

Agree, 

[w94005m]

Thanks to all for your comments.

 

The lawyer will use the police once the notice has been served and if failed to withdraw within 30 days. The squatter has stated he will not do anything unless legal papers are served, so just the police is apparently not an option.

 

It's the fault of the website displaying incorrectly. Bpundaries are correctly recorded on chanote and at the land office. The website has wrongly drawn the plot over part of an adjacent school plot, rather than what was previously part of a chanote of the current encumbent. He split the land into 2 chanotes, so that he could get financing as I have now found out. I have been told that there is zero chance of any recourse for the official website https://landsmaps.dol.go.th displaying incorrect details 😞

 

We've just been unlucky that this was wrongly displayed or we would have never pursued this. Sadly, there was no other way to obtain that information till the land was purchased.

 

We will give him the choice of purchasing or leasing the land/house before pursuiing legal action.

 

He wrongly thinks we will not pursue legal action and will only consider doing something till we do so. He is wrong, once legal action is commenced, purchasing/leasing options will only be available at a much higher price. The lawyer I saw today did not consider there would be future obstacles for reselling once this is complete, which was reassuring.

 

I would particularly like to thank @Crossy fot the leasing suggestion which we will offer, but again thanks to all. Your comments were greatly appreciated.

[w94005m]

26 minutes ago, john donson said:

how much for a bulldozer to level the place?

If we do not agree terms with the squatter, we will simply sell as is once evicted. Zero consideration for us living there now.

[Dogmatix]

Been involved with 2 encroachment cases.  In the first one a family known to the missus built part of their house on a part of our land.  They came up with many excuses over two years not to negotiate.  Eventually the missus shocked them with a court summons.  They showed up and mediation was ordered by the court.  We offered to sell them the whole piece of land they had encroached part of.  If not, the court would issue an order to evacuate our land, involving demolition of part of their house.  Eventually they agreed to buy our plot for about 50% more than we paid for it.  We gave some time to pay and a daughter was able to borrow from a bank to pay.  So it was relatively easily solved once we took them to court.  They still talk to the MIL in the village which is a surprisingly positive bonus.

 

The second one is much nastier and involves a 20 odd rai plot acquired through sale with the right of redemption.  The owners borrowed money to do funny business in local elections, as learned later, expecting to get a relative elected and be able pay back the debt with corruption money but were outbid in the election and have never been able to pay back all the money they borrowed or redeem sales with right of redemption. Our sale or redemption contract was for only one year and they never paid any agreed interest but asked for it to be extended which the missus for a year out of kindness, even without any payment. They kept saying they were just about to get the money to redeem but never did and came out with tricks like please transfer the title before payment because the bank will only lend after transfer 555.  They asked to rent the plot  and signed an agreement and paid the rent for one or two years.  But then stopped paying and squatted on the land.  After a couple of years of them squatting, the missus hired someone to plant trees on it but they wouldn't let him on to our land.  We sued for eviction and the case is ongoing.  The missus has to fly up for the court hearings and they usually send a lawyer to say they can't make it to waste her time and money.  But now the court has ordered that they can't delay any longer and, if they can't agree to buy the land at market price acceptable to the missus or enter into a new rental contract, an eviction order will issued.  Since it is a Nor Sor Sam Kor green title deed, their plan was obviously to claim squatters rights after using the land for 10 years claiming the owner had abandoned it.  However, the court case frustrates that because it is evidence that the owner wanted the land back and they were squatting illegally with no rights to claim the land in future.   We will take it to the village headman to persuade them to leave the land and let our guy work on it, if we get an eviction notice.  If we can plant timber trees there, it will be useless for their rice growing and timber trees will make it look like it is in constant use by the owner.  Then we can sell it and get out of the situation.  But at least we hope to get a court order to frustrate their squatter rights. 

 

We have incurred about 100k in lawyer fees so far but the market value of the land is over 3m today which we don't want to write off.  In the OP's case, with a 80k investment and 30k in lawyer fees that could rise higher, I would suggest it is better to put it down to experience.