Visa income observations and TIN application questions

[turgid]

I recently did my 1 year OA retirement extension at Samut Prakan .

All was discussed elsewhere except I was required to get my TM30 endorsed separately (I rent) ,and I noted that she went through my 800K proof bank statement in very fine detail and highlighted all the incoming transactions. 

This could be nothing at all or it could be incoming transaction checking for 2024 Tax . 

 

I've been fobbing my European investment account and UK Bank off for a couple of years with a passport number.

The EU Investment account has now demanded a TIN in the next  90 days or they will suspend the account, the UK bank has been making similar noises.

Given everything going on in Thailand the writing seems to be on the wall and I've accepted I need to get a TIN (Tax Id Number)  and pay some tax.

Downloaded and completed LP.10.1
I  visited the almost empty main Samut Prakan Revenue office to get a TIN. They efficiently checked my documents, said they were in all order but  I needed to go to a smaller branch revenue office in my local admin area. 

The branch office was empty  but after dealing with a friendly but hopeless officer we had to wait for the boss to come back from lunch.

They both agreed they cant Issue a TIN without me paying some 2023 tax.  He suggested given that all foreigners  must have at least 800K THB , that 20K for Tax year 2023 would cut it.

If not  I can  wait until 2025, go in they'll calculate the 2024 tax and give me a TIN when I pay the 2024 tax.

They also seemed to have zero  awareness of any changes to foreigner tax treatment in 2024.

In summary no Tax paid , no TIN.

 

My  remittance in 2024 has been about 3M THB , a mixture of tax paid savings, tax paid inheritance,  and untaxed investment and interest returns. Yes i could have made my life easier by doing all from one place  - I didn't.   

I gifted 1.6M THB to buy a hectare of  land and a motorcycle in Laos - the rest I've squandered on rent, food, travel,  healthcare and toys.

My expectation was I would get a registed Tax ID ,and then in Q1 2025  a tax form or online link would be sent to me.

I would then with the aid of Google translate complete the tax return, pay tax on the investment returns, not pay tax on the savings,  argue over the gifts,   and then pay the tax for 2024 in Q1 2025.

If requested I would provide bank statements proving where everything came from and went to.  Paying tax basically.

 

So i have a few questions.

 

Is this the same at other tax offices?

Can I get a Tax ID now without paying tax ? How?  The online services seem to say yes (for 7K THB). My personal experience has been no.

I'll pay the 7K for someone else to fill the form if that's the only way to get a TIN now but i'd  really rather not especially if it turns out they also suddenly need 20K for 2023 Tax or suddenly need to sell me a tax service to get it in Q1 2025..

Is the Thai tax  return a paper document, or online form  that I  complete in advance or do i really have to visit the branch office and squabble with someone who doesn't seem to know, understand or care about remittances or the difference in treatment for savings and investment returns ?  

Is anyone going to care about the difference in savings and investments or are they really just going to brute force based on remittance?

 

 

 

 

[oldcpu]

I can NOT answer your specific questions.

 

My understanding is nominally (in the past) to get a Thai tax ID one needs to earn over a certain amount of money in Thailand per calendar (taxation) year.

 

Recently, there has been a tax interpretation by the Thai revenue department that for any foreign tax resident in Thailand (ie was in Thailand for a cumulative time >180 days in a calender year) who bring foreign income earned after 1-Jan-2024 into Thailand (presumeably if over a certain (small) amount) will in the future have to pay tax (and thus get a tax ID).

 

However if those conditions are not met (for example one is living off of money that was earned BEFORE 1-Jan-2024) then there is no need at present to get a Tax ID.

 

I reside in Thailand > 180 days per calendar year.  I do not (yet) have a Thai tax ID .  I had a case where a Canadian bank threatened to suspend my Canadian account if I did not provide a Thai tax ID. Further, I recently opened a new trading account in Canada, and again they advised they would only do so if I provided a Thai tax ID.

 

What I did was provide them my Thai pink-ID #, with a corresponding explanation that this was likely to be my Thai tax ID number, but that it was not yet activated.

 

That explanation and number (for a TIN) was accepted (even thou it is not yet activated).

 

Of course to get a pink-ID one must first get a yellow book, which may not be possible for yourself.

 

I don't know how much (if any) of that was applicable to your situation, given the various details specific to your case.

 

Edited October 30 by oldcpu

[oldcpu]

On 10/28/2024 at 3:21 PM, turgid said:

Is the Thai tax  return a paper document, or online form  that I  complete in advance or do i really have to visit the branch office and squabble with someone who doesn't seem to know, understand or care about remittances or the difference in treatment for savings and investment returns ?  

 

 

There is an online Thai tax form, but one needs a Thai Tax ID # in order to fill in the form online.

 

I believe one can download the form, fill it in by hand, and take it to the local Revenue Department office.

 

However whether they will accept such, given one does not yet have a Thai Tax ID # is a question that I can not answer.

 

I am as curious as you about this.

.

Edited October 30 by oldcpu

[turgid]

Thai small business owner friend of mine says she goes into a local revenue office once a year, shows her bank book. They take all the incoming transactions and tell her how much tax to pay. Never seen a tax return form. Up until two years ago she didn't know she had to pay tax. I dont think a lot of the regional offices have any idea what is going on and the whole process is ramping up across all tax segments.

 

My guess is there is an attempt by some smaller offices to keep the transactions going through the door to keep staff employed and perhaps gain some off book "service charges". If they give me a TIN and you can do an online tax return  they'll never see me again in that Tax office again. This method forces me to put the money through their office. Online banking is closing down bank branches, online tax paying will do the same.

[topt]

On 10/28/2024 at 3:21 PM, turgid said:

The EU Investment account has now demanded a TIN in the next  90 days or they will suspend the account, the UK bank has been making similar noises.

Given everything going on in Thailand the writing seems to be on the wall and I've accepted I need to get a TIN (Tax Id Number)  and pay some tax.

Possible temporary solution to the "admin" issues you mention.

Are you a UK tax payer or have a NI number? If yes give the bank that - unless you have told them officially you now live in Thailand in which case they may not accept it. This won't make any difference to whether you pay tax or not to HMRC. In fact if you are receiving any interest on that bank account you theoretically are supposed to be declaring it to HMRC but that then leads us into the PA etc.........

Same with the EU investment account. 

 

For many financial operations it just seems to be a box ticking exercise.

Edited October 30 by topt
grammar

[Jingthing]

It's funny and totally wrong that they think all on retirement extensions have 800K income!
I lived here for many many years on that status with ZERO income.

That's because my extensions were based on the BANK METHOD!

This tax thing is a can of worms if the revenue doesn't have even basic knowledge about such matters.

 

Yes I had transfers of course but always much less than 800K.

Edited October 30 by Jingthing

[Gobbler]

Pay an agent to bribe.  Done. I won't worry about it. 

 

 

[NoDisplayName]

On 10/28/2024 at 3:21 PM, turgid said:

They both agreed they cant Issue a TIN without me paying some 2023 tax.  He suggested given that all foreigners  must have at least 800K THB , that 20K for Tax year 2023 would cut it.

 

Depends on the TRD office.  Some will issue one upon request, some require evidence you need one, and there are reports some outright refuse.

 

There is no requirement to "owe" tax to get a TIN.

 

Do you have a savings or fixed account earning interest, with tax withheld?  Explain you need a TIN in order to file a return to have withheld tax refunded.

 

Have you a pink ID?

[soi3eddie]

Like many have said, the Thai Tax office and Immigration are unlikely to be connected if ever. Most say "wait and see". For now they don't have a clue. Until it is clear and detailed, then do nothing. How will they, "who", know? and know what? I bring very little into Thailand each year and have 800k in Thai bank account since 2018. I do spend less than 180 days per year in Thailand but, at some point, I expect that immigration will want a TIN to get the annual Non-O extension. I'll wait until required.

[Everyman]

10 hours ago, soi3eddie said:

Like many have said, the Thai Tax office and Immigration are unlikely to be connected if ever. Most say "wait and see". For now they don't have a clue. Until it is clear and detailed, then do nothing. How will they, "who", know? and know what? I bring very little into Thailand each year and have 800k in Thai bank account since 2018. I do spend less than 180 days per year in Thailand but, at some point, I expect that immigration will want a TIN to get the annual Non-O extension. I'll wait until required.

 

It’s no surprise that the revenue office didn’t just pull up their magical computer system that knows every bank balance and transaction of everyone in the world along with detailed programming of all the dual tax agreements so they can assess taxes for every random pensioner in Thailand who comes to them afraid they will be dragged out off their barstool and charged with tax evasion for not declaring their pensions.

[turgid]

On 10/30/2024 at 9:01 PM, NoDisplayName said:

 

Depends on the TRD office.  Some will issue one upon request, some require evidence you need one, and there are reports some outright refuse.

 

There is no requirement to "owe" tax to get a TIN.

 

Do you have a savings or fixed account earning interest, with tax withheld?  Explain you need a TIN in order to file a return to have withheld tax refunded.

 

Have you a pink ID?

Samut Prakan and Mueang Samut Parkan offices  outright refuse and the TRD helpline still doesn't answer the phone. 

I dont have a pink ID. My understanding was you can only get one if you own a property and have a yellow book .

Is that true ? 

Context: I rent. Long term OA visa holder on basis of retirement (10+ years)  Not married.  

Swissquote where i hold about half of my investments just asked me for the pink card in lieu of a TIN  - now in a deep tizzy because I can provide neither a TIN or a Pink ID. I told them to read this forum and for my protection i've just  opened an Interactive Brokers account  if they decide to debank me.  I'll perhaps get another year for the TRD to get it's ducks in a row.

 

According to the TIN instruction page you must go to your local office to get a TIN  but should also be able to go to any office.

Has anyone tried out of territory registration in the main Bangkok TRD or any other  office?

 

 

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, turgid said:

I dont have a pink ID. My understanding was you can only get one if you own a property and have a yellow book .

Is that true ? 

Context: I rent. Long term OA visa holder on basis of retirement (10+ years)  Not married.  

 

Has anyone tried out of territory registration in the main Bangkok TRD or any other  office?

 

I think if one is in Thailand on a work visa, one can get a Pink-ID without need of a Yellow Book.   But I suspect that if here in Thailand on a Type-O/OA for reason of retirement or marriage (to a Thai), the Yellow Book may be a prerequisite (however I do NOT know for certain).

 

I posted already I applied on line for a TIN, which the Bankgok office referred to the Phuket Office, where the Phuket office (initially) refused. I suspect if I go knocking on their door and sit in their office all day, I might be able to get the Phuket RD office to change their mind, and grant me a tax-ID (ie activate my pink-ID number to be an active TIN).  However I am in no hurry to do such as (1) as of 31-Dec-2023 I am bringing no money into Thailand, and (2) I am on an LTR visa..

 

I might thou sit at the local Phuket RD office for a full day sometime next year (to get a Thai tax-ID) , as I have a German life-insurance/investment/retirement fund coming due, to which I will likely take a cash payout (and be subject to profit) ... and I am pondering then if having a Thai tax ID might be beneficial (so to get a Thai tax certificate to show German authorities).  < unsure >  I need to research this some more.

Edited November 10 by oldcpu