Is Earth round or flat ?

[rattlesnake]

7 hours ago, Will B Good said:

 

Bearing in mind all these speeds are relative to some other object or frame of reference....there is no absolute motion in Einsteinian mechanics as there is no absolute space.

 

"Einsteinian mechanics" being just another abstract construct…

 

Do our senses and instinctive common sense matter this little?

 

If you had grown up not knowing anything about the current doxa (such as in an isolated community not subjected to modern education) and someone asked you whether the Earth is still or in motion, what do you think your answer would be, based on your own perceptions and observations? Likewise, if they asked you whether we move around the Sun or the Sun moves around us, what do you think your answer would be?

[rattlesnake]

6 hours ago, parallelman said:

Yes, Eric Dubay; wasn't sure of the spelling because I have seen both used.

Perhaps you might expand on the 'inconsistencies and concerns' about the heliocentric Solar Sysytem. Many FE's say that the planets and stars are fake and that there is only a dome-like firmament and as such completly denies just about everything science based. In this stance there aren't inconsistencies just denial of science. Is this the model that you subscribe to? Do you subscribe to in the'infinite plane' model? If not perhaps you might say which model you do subscribe to.

 

The inconsistencies and concerns have been covered in this thread and I encourage you to read through it.

 

"Science denialism" is by far the most common grievance directed at me. I am de facto a blasphemer of the science cult. And this makes complete sense: whoever challenges a belief should be prepared for hostility. In a not so distant past, "God denialism" was a problem for lots of blasphemers.

 

I subscribe to the 1892 Gleasons New Standard Map of the World.

 

 

Under this model, the known world is surrounded by an ice wall (lots of footage is available if required). What lies beyond is unknown as we are not allowed to go (c.f. Antarctic Treaty covered in this thread).

 

Other planets and stars are not what NASA shows us (CGI), but possibly sonoluminescence (energy/light/gas bodies).

 

Lots of things remain unknown, but the essential thing to understand is that we are living under an illusion.

 

Added bonus (I have several examples such as this one and can post them on request):

 

NASA Contractor Report 3073
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/19790005472/downloads/19790005472.pdf

 

Page 10:
Analyses of flight paths through changing mean wind fields reported in the literature are primarily two-dimensional and deal only with vertically varying horizontal winds (i.e., having a component parallel to the flat earth only).

 

Page 14:

The aircraft trajectory model employed in this study was derived based on the following assumptions: a) The earth is flat and non-rotating.The aircraft trajectory model employed in this study was derived based on the following assumptions:
a) The earth is flat and non-rotating.

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, rattlesnake said:

If you had grown up not knowing anything about the current doxa (such as in an isolated community not subjected to modern education) and someone asked you whether the Earth is still or in motion, what do you think your answer would be, based on your own perceptions and observations? Likewise, if they asked you whether we move around the Sun or the Sun moves around us, what do you think your answer would be?

 

There wouldn't be an answer - we'd be too busy 'hunter gathering' because we failed to learn from those who passed before us.... unless of course we didn't fail to learn, in which case our community would grow, evolve, and develop through a scientific renaissance into industrialisation where great minds prosper, establish theories based on observations and mathematics which are later proven.....  

...  as we intellectually evolve someone would develop improved means of communication whereby idiots are free to question all scientifically proven knowledge and ask dumb questions such as "If you had grown up not knowing anything about the current doxa, and if asked whether we move around the Sun or the Sun moves around us, what do you think your answer would be?"  .....  

[rattlesnake]

48 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

There wouldn't be an answer - we'd be too busy 'hunter gathering' because we failed to learn from those who passed before us.... unless of course we didn't fail to learn, in which case our community would grow, evolve, and develop through a scientific renaissance into industrialisation where great minds prosper, establish theories based on observations and mathematics which are later proven.....  

...  as we intellectually evolve someone would develop improved means of communication whereby idiots are free to question all scientifically proven knowledge and ask dumb questions such as "If you had grown up not knowing anything about the current doxa, and if asked whether we move around the Sun or the Sun moves around us, what do you think your answer would be?"  .....  

 

I understand that my stance is shocking to you, but I would appreciate if you could stop calling me an idiot :)

 

Your take on this issue is somewhat naive in the sense that you see the current scientific doxa as the inevitable result of progress and evolution, rather than a political, ideological and societal construct.

 

The point I was making in my response to Will was that there are limits to the twisting of reality beyond common sense, in the name of a superior knowledge or understanding. I believe the questions I asked him are fundamental.

[parallelman]

6 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

 

The inconsistencies and concerns have been covered in this thread and I encourage you to read through it.

 

"Science denialism" is by far the most common grievance directed at me. I am de facto a blasphemer of the science cult. And this makes complete sense: whoever challenges a belief should be prepared for hostility. In a not so distant past, "God denialism" was a problem for lots of blasphemers.

 

I subscribe to the 1892 Gleasons New Standard Map of the World.

 

 

Under this model, the known world is surrounded by an ice wall (lots of footage is available if required). What lies beyond is unknown as we are not allowed to go (c.f. Antarctic Treaty covered in this thread).

 

Other planets and stars are not what NASA shows us (CGI), but possibly sonoluminescence (energy/light/gas bodies).

 

Lots of things remain unknown, but the essential thing to understand is that we are living under an illusion.

 

Added bonus (I have several examples such as this one and can post them on request):

 

NASA Contractor Report 3073
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/19790005472/downloads/19790005472.pdf

 

Page 10:
Analyses of flight paths through changing mean wind fields reported in the literature are primarily two-dimensional and deal only with vertically varying horizontal winds (i.e., having a component parallel to the flat earth only).

 

Page 14:

The aircraft trajectory model employed in this study was derived based on the following assumptions: a) The earth is flat and non-rotating.The aircraft trajectory model employed in this study was derived based on the following assumptions:
a) The earth is flat and non-rotating.

Have you bought a telescope and looked at the planets? Many of the images you claim as reality are simply out of focus. Albedo is another problem. Below are photos from my small telescope during a Lunar Eclipse. The Moon is so bright that no details can be seen but as the Earth's shadow moves across the Moon some features of the Moon become visisble. Note also that the Earth's shadow is curved.

 

[Mark Nothing]

If you idolize science as your god you will be fooled into believing the globe earth theory.

 

However if you read the Holy Bible and follow the first commandment all doubts will be erased and you will know the earth is flat.

 

[parallelman]

1 hour ago, Mark Nothing said:

If you idolize science as your god you will be fooled into believing the globe earth theory.

 

However if you read the Holy Bible and follow the first commandment all doubts will be erased and you will know the earth is flat.

 

The bible is just another story book where most of the stories came from times much earlier. The ark, floods, were stories from ancient Sumerian and Babylonian times. The Sumerians were the first to write that the Earth was flat but the Sumerians weren't much conserned with theory and thus had little interest in the sky. To them their many gods were the reason for this and that happening and their mathematics were mainly for practicle everyday uses. All that really happened was that all the gods could be combined into one almighty.

If you idolize one book of stories then you are likely to miss out on the wonders of the universe.

[Will B Good]

12 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

 

"Einsteinian mechanics" being just another abstract construct…

 

Do our senses and instinctive common sense matter this little?

 

If you had grown up not knowing anything about the current doxa (such as in an isolated community not subjected to modern education) and someone asked you whether the Earth is still or in motion, what do you think your answer would be, based on your own perceptions and observations? Likewise, if they asked you whether we move around the Sun or the Sun moves around us, what do you think your answer would be?

 

Interesting...the staggering strength of Einstein's theories comes from exactly the opposite......totally ignoring human perceptions and experiences and dealing solely with "known" facts......almost all his theories are based one fact......the speed of light is constant.

 

He didn't even accept such basics as Euclidean geometry as being a given.

[Hummin]

@rattlesnake

 

Just amazing how millions of people world wide who are astrophysicist, engineers and other scientists working with those previously mentioned, in Russia, China, India, Japan, and Europe. + 1000's of companies supporting the 77 space aganencies world wide, providing  inventions and solutions to keep the scam running, and a secret for the ordinary me and you. 

[rattlesnake]

35 minutes ago, Hummin said:

@rattlesnake

 

Just amazing how millions of people world wide who are astrophysicist, engineers and other scientists working with those previously mentioned, in Russia, China, India, Japan, and Europe. + 1000's of companies supporting the 77 space aganencies world wide, providing  inventions and solutions to keep the scam running, and a secret for the ordinary me and you. 

 

It's compartmentalised to a large extent, most people involved take care of a specific aspect and don't actually see the bigger picture. Those who do (and there are some) know to keep quiet and just go along with it to keep their social status.

 

The peer pressure aspect of this is fundamental. The human mind is not equipped to swim against such a massive tide and will much more easily adhere to the prevailing paradigm. Whether it makes objective sense to or not is, ultimately, a secondary issue (unfortunately). 

 

It also happens in the pharmaceutical industry regarding the nefarious effects of the Covid vaccine.

[Hummin]

1 hour ago, rattlesnake said:

 

It's compartmentalised to a large extent, most people involved take care of a specific aspect and don't actually see the bigger picture. Those who do (and there are some) know to keep quiet and just go along with it to keep their social status.

 

The peer pressure aspect of this is fundamental. The human mind is not equipped to swim against such a massive tide and will much more easily adhere to the prevailing paradigm. Whether it makes objective sense to or not is, ultimately, a secondary issue (unfortunately). 

 

It also happens in the pharmaceutical industry regarding the nefarious effects of the Covid vaccine.

You understand you put yourself among the elite of max 3% who have understood this. And many of those among you, have little or no education. 

 

Especially when it comes to scientistic understanding of how things works. 

 

97 are just humans by nature, while maybe 3% have understood everything.

 

If I'm going to belive something, it's going to be we are just an simulation. It is a more reasonable explanation than the earth is flat as you quote it. 

[Stiddle Mump]

Just a couple of points.

 

What is the underside of the earth if it is not spherical? 

 

If it is flat(ish), why does the water in the oceans not permeate through to the underside? If that happened would there soon be no oceans.

[rattlesnake]

49 minutes ago, Stiddle Mump said:

Just a couple of points.

 

What is the underside of the earth if it is not spherical? 

 

If it is flat(ish), why does the water in the oceans not permeate through to the underside? If that happened would there soon be no oceans.

 

Great questions and I would love to know the answers to them.

[rattlesnake]

1 hour ago, Hummin said:

You understand you put yourself among the elite of max 3% who have understood this. And many of those among you, have little or no education. 

 

Especially when it comes to scientistic understanding of how things works. 

 

97 are just humans by nature, while maybe 3% have understood everything.

 

If I'm going to belive something, it's going to be we are just an simulation. It is a more reasonable explanation than the earth is flat as you quote it. 

 

"Scientific education" just means "trained according to a specific belief system". A belief system which, as illustrated in this thread, does not like to be challenged.

 

I honestly don't understand what "we are just in a simulation" means. It sounds like one of those purposely indecipherable phrases that science nerds like to say, but if there is a deeper meaning and/or relevance to it, please don't hesitate to explain it.

[rattlesnake]

9 hours ago, parallelman said:

Have you bought a telescope and looked at the planets? Many of the images you claim as reality are simply out of focus. Albedo is another problem. Below are photos from my small telescope during a Lunar Eclipse. The Moon is so bright that no details can be seen but as the Earth's shadow moves across the Moon some features of the Moon become visisble. Note also that the Earth's shadow is curved.

 

 

 

There is plenty of footage seemingly indicating that stars are of a photoluminescent nature. NASA uses CGI and they are open about that, I have already covered it in this thread.

 

 

 

 

[Hummin]

7 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

 

"Scientific education" just means "trained according to a specific belief system". A belief system which, as illustrated in this thread, does not like to be challenged.

 

I honestly don't understand what "we are just in a simulation" means. It sounds like one of those purposely indecipherable phrases that science nerds like to say, but if there is a deeper meaning and/or relevance to it, please don't hesitate to explain it.

We are just a computer game designed to face challenges on random levels as we progress.

 

We are basically living in a Matrix, something I had a feeling of when I played my first computer games. Well, I repeat feeling, not that I thought it was reality we do. But still and especially after the movie Matrix, I wanted to believe, this how it is, and many with me had the same experience, still we relate to what we know, and the science we can believe in still today. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rattlesnake]

9 hours ago, Hummin said:

We are just a computer game designed to face challenges on random levels as we progress.

 

We are basically living in a Matrix, something I had a feeling of when I played my first computer games. Well, I repeat feeling, not that I thought it was reality we do. But still and especially after the movie Matrix, I wanted to believe, this how it is, and many with me had the same experience, still we relate to what we know, and the science we can believe in still today. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you actually believe (or are inclined to believe) that we are living in a simulation as described here by Neil DeGrasse Tyson or as depicted in The Matrix, then you and I are not as opposed as you think we are.

 

You are conceptually open to the possibility that the reality we live in does not actually exist and is artifically created by an entity we are then de facto subjected to. This is what I posit in my refutation of the heliocentric model. The ongoing deception which I believe is taking place is, for all intents and purposes, a simulation.

 

The interviewer mentions The Truman Show, this is an analogy I have used myself at times.

[Airalee]

12 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

It's compartmentalised to a large extent, most people involved take care of a specific aspect and don't actually see the bigger picture.

Sounds a bit like the movie “Cube”.  The only person who escaped was the innocent idiot, with no involvement with the construction of the cube, who was able to walk out in the end….but walk out to what?

 

Sorry for the spoiler 😅

[Hummin]

1 hour ago, rattlesnake said:

 

If you actually believe (or are inclined to believe) that we are living in a simulation as described here by Neil DeGrasse Tyson or as depicted in The Matrix, then you and I are not as opposed as you think we are.

 

You are conceptually open to the possibility that the reality we live in does not actually exist and is artifically created by an entity we are then de facto subjected to. This is what I posit in my refutation of the heliocentric model. The ongoing deception which I believe is taking place is, for all intents and purposes, a simulation.

 

The interviewer mentions The Truman Show, this is an analogy I have used myself at times.

All I'm saying lt is an theoretical possibility, and I can't help I had that feeling since I was a kid. 

 

Still, I do not claim that's the truth. That's the difference. 

 

I do not believe in religion, but I can't dismiss the possibility of an god, or almighty power. 

 

 

[parallelman]

On 1/6/2025 at 1:01 AM, rattlesnake said:

 

"Einsteinian mechanics" being just another abstract construct…

 

Do our senses and instinctive common sense matter this little?

 

If you had grown up not knowing anything about the current doxa (such as in an isolated community not subjected to modern education) and someone asked you whether the Earth is still or in motion, what do you think your answer would be, based on your own perceptions and observations? Likewise, if they asked you whether we move around the Sun or the Sun moves around us, what do you think your answer would be?

The Relativity of Einstein is not an abstraction. They have been tested time and time again. Wish I could say the same about the FE which is very close to abstraction. For example, I haven't seen or read about any FE'er taking a trip up to the 'dome' and/or firmenment to test this idea. Plenty of homemade models to SUGGEST various ideas about refraction, reflection, twin Suns etc. but not actually doing experiments in the sky to verify. They build a model at home and that's it.

[kwilco]

just ring someone up from Thailand in the US and ask them is it is day or night - explain how it can be dark there and light in Thailand.

 

 

[Hummin]

Flat earther or not, what do you think of this experiment of Newton's 3 law? 

 

Where and how was this experiment executed?

 

 

 

 

[KhunBENQ]

On 1/7/2025 at 4:34 PM, parallelman said:

I haven't seen or read about any FE'er taking a trip up to the 'dome' and/or firmenment to test this idea.

Wasn't there one who tried it with a DIY rocket? Unfortunately he didn't survive.

 

Mad Mike RIP:

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51602655

[thaibreaker]

.

[parallelman]

22 hours ago, KhunBENQ said:

Wasn't there one who tried it with a DIY rocket? Unfortunately he didn't survive.

 

Mad Mike RIP:

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51602655

Yes, you are right. Apparently the parachute deployed to early after take off. Another article wrote '...when the parachutes on his homemade steam rocket failed to deploy...' I haven't seen a video (if there is one) so I don't which id correct.

[kwilco]

It seems that some don't understand the difference between critical thinking a(skepticism) and religion they are not they are not the same - they are opposites - one requires thought, reason and deduction, the other requires faith.

Skeptics view flat Earth theory as a form of science denial, and as a pseudoscientific belief that contradicts scientific evidence. 

Explanation 

Flat Earth beliefs are not based on scientific knowledge.

They contradict the scientific consensus that the Earth is roughly spherical.

This consensus is based on multiple lines of evidence that have been confirmed over thousands of years.

Experts in physics and philosophy classify flat Earth beliefs as a form of science denial.

Some historical examples of flat Earth beliefs include: 

The idea that the Earth floats on water beneath the firmament, based on scripture

The idea that the Earth is a rectangle surrounded by four oceans and four walls that support the firmament

The idea that the Sun travels through the northern parts of the Earth at night, as if hidden by a wall

[parallelman]

3 hours ago, kwilco said:

It seems that some don't understand the difference between critical thinking a(skepticism) and religion they are not they are not the same - they are opposites - one requires thought, reason and deduction, the other requires faith.

Skeptics view flat Earth theory as a form of science denial, and as a pseudoscientific belief that contradicts scientific evidence. 

Explanation 

Flat Earth beliefs are not based on scientific knowledge.

They contradict the scientific consensus that the Earth is roughly spherical.

This consensus is based on multiple lines of evidence that have been confirmed over thousands of years.

Experts in physics and philosophy classify flat Earth beliefs as a form of science denial.

Some historical examples of flat Earth beliefs include: 

The idea that the Earth floats on water beneath the firmament, based on scripture

The idea that the Earth is a rectangle surrounded by four oceans and four walls that support the firmament

The idea that the Sun travels through the northern parts of the Earth at night, as if hidden by a wall

It is sometimes difficult. One FE'r I know is not religious but follows a FE idea while others do seem to quote the bible often. Yes it is true that many FE'r do deny science based ideas claimimg that all scientists and governments are hiding the FE...to what end I don't know. FE'r seem to forget that there are scientists that are religious just as Einstein was.

[kwilco]

12 hours ago, parallelman said:

It is sometimes difficult. One FE'r I know is not religious but follows a FE idea while others do seem to quote the bible often. Yes it is true that many FE'r do deny science based ideas claimimg that all scientists and governments are hiding the FE...to what end I don't know. FE'r seem to forget that there are scientists that are religious just as Einstein was.

the oint is not reigion, it is the difference between critical thinking and faith.

[rattlesnake]

Neil deGrasse Tyson confirming "science" is a dogma which leaves no room for questioning.

 

[uncletiger]

On 2/4/2025 at 4:22 AM, rattlesnake said:

Neil deGrasse Tyson confirming "science" is a dogma which leaves no room for questioning.

 

 

 

Even though science as it is practiced today (i.e. money laundering and grant applications) is more akin to religion than science, that doesn't mean real science doesn't exist.

 

Example: drawing a large triangle on the Earth's surface and use simple arithmetic to add the interior angles. You'll find they sum to more than 180 degrees, indicating the Earth surface is positively curved everywhere, and therefore a (possibly oblong) spheroid. That is actual science and math. Not the garbage Tyson talks about.

 

I love a good conspiracy. Which is why I hate people who push flat Earth. It's provably false nonsense pushed by the CIA to discredit the ones that are very real.