Revenue Department boss calls on tax residents in Thailand to file 2024 returns by March 31

[chiang mai]

10 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Do you mean a slog for you to retrieve your records, or a slog to prove them to the TRD?

Record retrieval mostly and trying to recall exactly what and when. My UK bank statements exist for seven years plus I have all my (many many) old bank books, still, it will take time!

[anrcaccount]

5 hours ago, chiang mai said:

TRD's job is "To collect all taxes". They  can't  always see Baht notes changing hands in the market place but they sure as heck can see wire transfers come from overseas, into somebody's account and they need to satisfy themselves as to whether those funds are assessable or not, reported or not.. Which do you think is easier to do, stand in a hot dusty market place watching vendors all day long and keeping a tally of their sales to see if they are reporting their income correctly, or, sitting behind a desk in an air con office with a phone and a printout from BOT showing wire transfers!

 

Give your constant criticisms of my observations a rest and STOP following me, I no longer have any interest in what you think. "most ludicrous", "beyond a joke" ....save your mock shock and horror for the amateur dramatic society, this is a debating and opinion forum so suck it up and get over it!

 

I only comment on a small number of your wilder observations, don't have the time to follow nearly all of them,  too prolific!

 

On topic, you said:

 

The problem here is that whilst you know your remittance is not assessable, TRD doesn't, unless somebody tells them. All they see is a remittance that has no corresponding tax return, which is why I believe non assessable funds will need to be reported, as they are in other countries.

 

Non assessable funds will not need to be reported. That's a very strange assertion, that means you believe every single remittance into any Thai bank account needs to be reported. You can see multiple other members already disagreeing with you here.  I thought 'ludicrous', was apt to describe that. 

 

Secondly, the TRD won't "see a remittance with no corresponding tax return". They will only see, what is submitted to them in a self declared return. Could the TRD get detailed access to a foreigners Thai bank accounts in an audit situation, yes I'm sure they could, but that's not the point.

 

 

 

[Lacessit]

7 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Record retrieval mostly and trying to recall exactly what and when. My UK bank statements exist for seven years plus I have all my (many many) old bank books, still, it will take time!

Is this not hypothetical?

 

AFAIK the TRD only wants to know whether income or savings are being transferred.

[mudcat]

39 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Do you mean a slog for you to retrieve your records, or a slog to prove them to the TRD?

I needed to go back and report my wife's bank activity to get her coverage under US Treasury's 'Streamlined' FATCA reporting on FinCEN114.  The principal issue were her accounts from before our marriage which I mistakenly belied were not covered.  It was a slog but to get current activity compliant I saw no option other than to correct the errors of the past.  

 

I am not sure about TRD's enforcement of foreign remittance's, but I had a go around with FinCEN about a transfer to a Cuban friend and it took most of a year to get my $10,000 back and it cost us our relationship with Fidelity.

[The Cyclist]

11 hours ago, Presnock said:

People with no assessable income remitted either by LTR or certain pensions, ss etc from the US cannot get a tax id  and also do not have to file the tax forms.

 

Yes, I get that, and that is not in dispute. Americans also have FATCA that they have to comply with,  or whatever is called.

 

We can ignore Americans for the rest of this post.

 

Up until Thailand adopted CRS ( The OECD equivalent of FATCA ) There was nothing for other Western Nations to comply with.

 

They now have CRS to comply with if they move monies across CRS Country borders.Given the main aim of CRS is the avoidance and detection of Tax evasion / avoidance, a system that was not a closed loop did not really make sense to me.

 

Which is why I said right at the start. The people who who remit money through things like Wise and other platforms will probably have some explaining to do.

 

Not so with people who direct deposit to a Thai Bank account things like Government Pensions, or others exempt thai taxation by way of DTA. Very easily checkable, the transfer code will tell the bank, the RD what the transfer is for.

 

A transfer code that includes Paymaster is a Government Pension.

 

A transfer code that includes DWP will be a State Pension.

 

Private Pensions will use a transfer code that is specific to the Pension administrator.

 

The above is UK specific. I would be surprised if other Western Nation was not using something similar.

 

I dont have a Thai Pink ID, Neither do I have a Thai TIN and I also will not be filing a tax return as my understanding is that I have no need to file a tax return, due to my remitted income being exempt Thai taxation bynway of DTA.

 

I was merely pointing out, that from a tax evasion / avoidance point of view, this

 

Quote

Changes to tax regulations in 2023 make all income remitted to Thailand by foreign residents in the country for over 180 days last year declarable.

 

makes sense.

 

Not that I am saying that the article is correct, only that it makes sense from a tax evasion / avoidance angle.

[EVENKEEL]

10 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Getting a kick lately where the head of the local law firm Integrity Legal (a U.S. attorney who says he's a naturalized Thai citizen) has been posting repeated YT videos saying that many of the expat "tax advisors" giving tax advice to foreigners here are violating Thai law in doing so. And that most expat retirees here, emphasis on his use of the term "most", shouldn't be impacted at all by the recent Revenue Department directives. And advising against everyone running out to file for obtaining a Thai Tax ID number.

 

Examples:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for sharing. It is always interesting how a relatively non story can be blown way out of proportion. But, it's given a few retirees hours of fun reliving their glory years in the Tax game. 

 

[soalbundy]

21 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

They should but say they refuse too?

 

If so, what will be the consequences?

Fines, past audits? Visa rejected?

Jail or mass deportations?

Making a stand is all very well until they realize a year later that it is inevitable and file a tax return for 2025......then comes the question, "we can't find your tax return for 2024 in our system, did you make one? If not  we will assess you on your 2025 return with a fine". Fighting the tax office is an expensive and pointless exercise.

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, anrcaccount said:

 

I only comment on a small number of your wilder observations, don't have the time to follow nearly all of them,  too prolific!

 

On topic, you said:

 

The problem here is that whilst you know your remittance is not assessable, TRD doesn't, unless somebody tells them. All they see is a remittance that has no corresponding tax return, which is why I believe non assessable funds will need to be reported, as they are in other countries.

 

Non assessable funds will not need to be reported. That's a very strange assertion, that means you believe every single remittance into any Thai bank account needs to be reported. You can see multiple other members already disagreeing with you here.  I thought 'ludicrous', was apt to describe that. 

 

Secondly, the TRD won't "see a remittance with no corresponding tax return". They will only see, what is submitted to them in a self declared return. Could the TRD get detailed access to a foreigners Thai bank accounts in an audit situation, yes I'm sure they could, but that's not the point.

 

 

 

Go follow and antagonist somebody else, stay Away from me.

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

Is this not hypothetical?

 

AFAIK the TRD only wants to know whether income or savings are being transferred.

Of course it is, but it is still part of the risk tolerance picture 

[ronnie50]

Back to the issue of 'gifting'. The annual amount one can 'gift' their spouse is quite big. I thought, perhaps mistakenly, that would be tax deductable for the sender. (e.g. if I give my Thai wife 40k THB a month for her own individual spending, then that annual 480k THB is a gift and not assessible for tax), is that correct? While I see gifting explained in some of the accounting firms' documents, I don't see anything about it in the UOB Thailand tax calculator, just the standard deductable amount for being married.

[Dmaxdan]

Can anyone confirm that you need a certificate of residence in order to obtain a Thai TIN, if you don't own a yellow book or Thai ID card? Thanks in advance 🙏

[Celsius]

[Sheryl]

14 hours ago, Presnock said:

I Am of the opinion based on what I read, if you have any income sourced in Thailand then you are supposed to file the tax forms but I could be wrong - should check the trd web site for Thai sourced income to be sure.

A lot of people with very small income well below the threshold for tax do not bother to file. E.g. interest income on 800k accounts.  

[chiang mai]

31 minutes ago, ronnie50 said:

Back to the issue of 'gifting'. The annual amount one can 'gift' their spouse is quite big. I thought, perhaps mistakenly, that would be tax deductable for the sender. (e.g. if I give my Thai wife 40k THB a month for her own individual spending, then that annual 480k THB is a gift and not assessible for tax), is that correct? While I see gifting explained in some of the accounting firms' documents, I don't see anything about it in the UOB Thailand tax calculator, just the standard deductable amount for being married.

No that is not correct. There is no deductible or allowance in the TRD Code for the giver of the gift, only for the recipient. If the funds that are remitted to your wife are assessable, you must declare them in the normal way.

[chiang mai]

28 minutes ago, Dmaxdan said:

Can anyone confirm that you need a certificate of residence in order to obtain a Thai TIN, if you don't own a yellow book or Thai ID card? Thanks in advance 🙏

Different posters have reported differently on this, it may depend on the office you apply to.

[Dmaxdan]

18 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Different posters have reported differently on this, it may depend on the office you apply to.

Thanks. for the record, it would be the Chiang Mai office.

[chiang mai]

5 minutes ago, Dmaxdan said:

Thanks. for the record, it would be the Chiang Mai office.

I don't know what current practise is, I've had my TIN for over a decade. Perhaps others can advise?

[anchadian]

1 hour ago, Dmaxdan said:

Can anyone confirm that you need a certificate of residence in order to obtain a Thai TIN, if you don't own a yellow book or Thai ID card? Thanks in advance 🙏

Possibly a Thai bank statement which includes your address or a utility bill would suffice but as CM stated, it all depends on that particular RD office.

[Rampant Rabbit]

4 hours ago, soalbundy said:

Making a stand is all very well until they realize a year later that it is inevitable and file a tax return for 2025......then comes the question, "we can't find your tax return for 2024 in our system, did you make one? If not  we will assess you on your 2025 return with a fine". Fighting the tax office is an expensive and pointless exercise.

getting on a flight out and not returning is an easy game, failing that crossing into Malaysia is an easy game, failing that blowing your brains out before emptying your  account is an easy game

[NoDisplayName]

17 hours ago, chiang mai said:

If push came to shove and somebody said, "prove it, for the past ten years", could you?

 

I keep digital copies of all tax returns along with 1099's and other relevant documents on my laptop for all tax years since ex-patronizing the USA.  Also save a year end copy of my investment, foreign bank balance, credit card, and FBAR spreadsheets.  That would take us back to nought-five.

 

I think I could do that.

 

Might not be able to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the remittance I made on Feb 17th of this year was specifically income from direct deposit of salary earned in China Oct 12th of 2011, but I can sure drown the auditors in paperwork.

[NoDisplayName]

3 hours ago, Dmaxdan said:

Can anyone confirm that you need a certificate of residence in order to obtain a Thai TIN, if you don't own a yellow book or Thai ID card? Thanks in advance 🙏

 

You do not.  You may need to show a long term visa, you may need to have a reason for filing.

 

I got mine on an O'visa extension in Bangkapi.  I don't recall if they asked why.  If so, I responded file for refund of interest taxes withheld.

[NoDisplayName]

3 hours ago, ronnie50 said:

I thought, perhaps mistakenly, that would be tax deductable for the sender. (e.g. if I give my Thai wife 40k THB a month for her own individual spending, then that annual 480k THB is a gift and not assessible for tax), is that correct?

 

That would technically still be potentially taxable for you, depending on whether remitted funds are identified as assessable.

 

Regardless of what account the funds are deposited into, they are still under your control when they cross the border, so the remittance is yours.

 

You remit, you pay tax if due.  Wife does not pay under 20 million, 5% over that.

 

Some advisors recommend gifting to an offshore account in the wife's name.  Would be non-taxable for you (depending on your home country gifting rules) as giver, and non-taxable for your wife until she remits to Thailand, and then would still fall under gift receiving rules for her.

 

I'm currently researching setting up a Schwabb US-based account in wifey's name to receive annual gifts, with appropriate documentation.  I stay within US lifetime gifting limits, she invests her money in a US brokerage earning (file W8-BEN) tax-free capital gains, but paying 15% on interest and dividends per US-Thai DTA.

[JimGant]

6 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

...which is why I believe non assessable funds will need to be reported, as they are in other countries.

 

Non assessable funds will not need to be reported. That's a very strange assertion, that means you believe every single remittance into any Thai bank account needs to be reported. You can see multiple other members already disagreeing with you here.  I thought 'ludicrous', was apt to describe that. 

I guess the UK requires some non assessable (tax exempt) income to  be reported -- don't know what that drives? And, the US requires tax exempt interest (on govt bonds) to be reported -- and that drives (when added to taxable income) what your Modified Adjusted Gross Income (MAGI) is, a number that determines your Medicare premium.

 

And, certainly CM,  you meant "non assessable INCOME," not non assessable FUNDS (which could include your inheritance from Aunt Martha)? But even here, a line item (or many), showing non assessable income(s) -- won't mean a damn, unless TRD has the time and assets (they don't) to scrutinize each from their library containing 61different DTAs. No, there is nothing I can see that would drive the requirement for a non assessable income line item (unless, it exceeded an established large threshold number, thus driving an audit).

 

But, the folks they're interested in won't even be filing tax returns. So, what makes sense, is for TRD to ask the Thai banking system to provide a list of foreigners whose annual remittance exceeds some large number. Then, determine from Immigration, whether or not these folks exceeded 180 days of stay. Then, decide who to have a chat with.

 

But, no -- a line item, or items, of non assessable income(s) on your tax return -- doesn't pass the smell test.

 

 

 

[anrcaccount]

6 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

3 hours ago, ronnie50 said:

I thought, perhaps mistakenly, that would be tax deductable for the sender. (e.g. if I give my Thai wife 40k THB a month for her own individual spending, then that annual 480k THB is a gift and not assessible for tax), is that correct?

 

That would technically still be potentially taxable for you, depending on whether remitted funds are identified as assessable.

 

Regardless of what account the funds are deposited into, they are still under your control when they cross the border, so the remittance is yours.

 

You remit, you pay tax if due.  Wife does not pay under 20 million, 5% over that.

 

Some advisors recommend gifting to an offshore account in the wife's name.  Would be non-taxable for you (depending on your home country gifting rules) as giver, and non-taxable for your wife until she remits to Thailand, and then would still fall under gift receiving rules for her.

 

On gifting - get professional advice. 

 

In Thailand you are assessed and taxed on funds remitted to yourself or earned by yourself in Thailand. If the funds are not remitted to you or earnt by you, how can they be taxed? Nothing has hit your Thai bank account. 

 

In my understanding, with the right construct, it's possible to gift EITHER to an overseas account of your wife (and she subsequently remits that Thailand, as you have stated), or directly to her Thai account, with zero Thai tax implications for the giftor. 

 

 

[NoDisplayName]

Just now, anrcaccount said:

n my understanding, with the right construct, it's possible to gift EITHER to an overseas account of your wife (and she subsequently remits that Thailand, as you have stated), or directly to her Thai account, with zero Thai tax implications for the giftor. 

 

Yes, but the right construct would be to gift only non-assessable funds to her Thai account. 

 

Otherwise, you could logically claim that the 2 million of current year income remitted directly to a car dealership account to purchase a vehicle is not taxable as remitted income as it technically never went into your account.

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Yes, but the right construct would be to gift only non-assessable funds to her Thai account. 

 

Otherwise, you could logically claim that the 2 million of current year income remitted directly to a car dealership account to purchase a vehicle is not taxable as remitted income as it technically never went into your account.

There is no facility within the TRD Code that allows a TEDA for the gifter, nor is it implied there is one. Gifts made overseas are not Thai assessable, ditto gifts made whilst not Thai tax resident, ditto non assessable funds, but that's about it. To suggest the contrary is misleading and incorrect.

[JimGant]

23 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

Some advisors recommend gifting to an offshore account in the wife's name.  Would be non-taxable for you (depending on your home country gifting rules) as giver, and non-taxable for your wife until she remits to Thailand,

If the wife remitted monies from an offshore account in her name, which contained monies from a bank loan, from an inheritance from her father, and from a gift from you -- sounds like a completely non income remitting event. So, why would she be subject to Thai taxation? Yes, you -- the gifter -- are certainly money laundering that gift. Ho hum.

[NoDisplayName]

21 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

There is no facility within the TRD Code that allows a TEDA for the gifter, nor is it implied there is one. Gifts made overseas are not Thai assessable, ditto gifts made whilst not Thai tax resident, ditto non assessable funds, but that's about it. To suggest the contrary is misleading and incorrect.

 

That's not what I'm suggesting.

 

If I remit funds to her account or to mine, the remittance is mine.  If the funds are assessable income, they may be taxable for me if I exceed TEDA.

 

If I remit NON-assessable funds, they are not taxable.

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

That's not what I'm suggesting.

 

If I remit funds to her account or to mine, the remittance is mine.  If the funds are assessable income, they may be taxable for me if I exceed TEDA.

 

If I remit NON-assessable funds, they are not taxable.

Yes, you and I agree.

[NoDisplayName]

38 minutes ago, JimGant said:

If the wife remitted monies from an offshore account in her name, which contained monies from a bank loan, from an inheritance from her father, and from a gift from you -- sounds like a completely non income remitting event. So, why would she be subject to Thai taxation? Yes, you -- the gifter -- are certainly money laundering that gift. Ho hum.

 

No money laundering.

It's a gift.

Not for my benefit.

She is to hold the funds in that account until I'm under ground.

They are to 'take care her' when I'm gone.

I don't intend to potentially pay 35% tax when I don't need to.