Revenue Department boss calls on tax residents in Thailand to file 2024 returns by March 31

[NoDisplayName]

2 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

To confirm and approve within a week, with no supporting documentation suggests 2 things.

 

1. The refund was below a threshold that does not require checking ( Which is possible, but I dont think is likely )

 

2. Or, as you correctly point out, the RD has access to bank and brokerage accounts.

 

Which might put the wind up some, but does not help those that are legit, looking to stay legit and are only looking for a yay or nay on whether they have to actually file anything.

 

Not likely access to the actual bank/brokerage accounts.  They would have access to annual/semi-annual reports filed with BOT/RD from banks/brokerages detailing name, Id number, income, tax withheld.

 

When I filed 3 returns late last year, 2023 was approved immediately, as TRD had the annual data available.  But bank withholding statements were requested for 2021 and 2022, indicating prior years (and actual bank/broker databases) were not readily available.

[The Cyclist]

14 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

When I filed 3 returns late last year, 2023 was approved immediately, as TRD had the annual data available.  But bank withholding statements were requested for 2021 and 2022, indicating prior years (and actual bank/broker databases) were not readily available

 

A point I made earlier. That banks have to report to TRd by June 2025 for year 2024.

 

Not an issue for people already in the system. But could be an issue for people not already in the system prior to 01 Jan 2024.

[NoDisplayName]

2 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

A point I made earlier. That banks have to report to TRd by June 2025 for year 2024.

 

Not an issue for people already in the system. But could be an issue for people not already in the system prior to 01 Jan 2024.

 

If you receive Thai-source income and have tax withheld, you ARE in the system.  Income paid and taxes withheld are reported.

 

TRD simply needs to match your name/ID number on your return to the information in the database they receive from BOT, compiled from the reports they receive from banks and brokerages and employers.

 

If your records are in the database, your data can be confirmed and your return approved quickly.  If not, supporting documentation will be requested.

[The Cyclist]

1 minute ago, NoDisplayName said:

If you receive Thai-source income and have tax withheld, you ARE in the system.  Income paid and taxes withheld are reported.

 

Yes, that I understand.

 

I was more thinking of a great deal of posters who are not currently in the system ( Including myself ) who I think are very soon going to be in the system.

[NoDisplayName]

4 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Yes, that I understand.

 

I was more thinking of a great deal of posters who are not currently in the system ( Including myself ) who I think are very soon going to be in the system.

 

Ah, large remittances but no tax return or (like me) filed but not declared?  The remittances are in the system, so you are in the system.

 

I suspect they 'might' look at total remittances, match anything over an arbitrary limit, perhaps 5 million baht annual total, to find a matching return.  That would be a separate office looking for potential money laundering, and would kick suspect records out for further investigation.

 

They know about DTA's, they know about non-assessable income.  Unlikely they'll bother with non-reporting foreigners with remittances totaling under a million or two.

[flexomike]

17 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Possibly free for a short first meetlng.

Anyway my main issue is IRAs and I still think by the time I actually have to deal with this that there will probably be actual reports about this for the Pattaya office.

from my understanding IRA's are asessable income for US citizens, not sure about Roth IRA's, don't have that type so never checked into it.

[Jingthing]

24 minutes ago, flexomike said:

from my understanding IRA's are asessable income for US citizens, not sure about Roth IRA's, don't have that type so never checked into it.

My understanding as I've posted before are IRAs Roth and Traditional and also 401k withdrawals are fully accessable if remitted to Thailand while a Thai tax resident. 

For example 10k usd withdrawal, 10k remitted, 10k accessable income in Thailand. All classed as accessable pension income. This oddly even though Roth IRA withdrawals are tax free by the IRS.

[TheAppletons]

2 hours ago, JimGant said:

Actually it suggests one thing -- self-assessment is alive and well. Thailand is acting like an OECD nation, where only a cursory math check is done by algorithm before a refund check is issued. Only is your return possibly scrutinized in greater detail in the next year or two or three. And if there's a potential problem, you'll hear about it.

 

Obviously if you pass the math test, you'll get the refund check and the benefit of any doubt, at least initially. To hold up checks for anything more than a quick glance at your return -- would not be prudent.

 

  THIS ^^

 

  It's laughable that anyone thinks every single tax return is scrutinized by Somchai at Nakhon Nowhere TRD.

 

  Likely the returns are accepted at face value unless something in the return triggers a "red flag" requiring additional review.  

[Captain Flack]

I have removed several posts and replies, which have shorten a quoted post, and have changed the context and meaning of that post.

[4myr]

Just speculating here, why TRD does not have to make a lot of effort, if they want to catch additional tax income on foreign sourced remittance:

1) tax residents who remit automatically their pension, even though many are only taxable in Thailand, many of them have been taxed in their home country and because of higher allowances who are over 65 year, the catch will be minimal. So no extra effort will be taken by TRD for this group

 

2) tax residents who remit manually by Wise et al below certain thresholds, the first years 2025/6 many like me will remit first their non accessable income e.g. savings/income prior 2024. So why TRD should bother with this group in the first years, until this income source is depleted

 

I think TRD will focus primarily on manual cash or crypto remittances above certain thresholds [above 2M baht and 30% tax bracket] with no or low tax return declaration attached, or without a Thai TIN or foreign TIN known to the reporting FIs.   

[jwest10]

7 minutes ago, 4myr said:

Just speculating here, why TRD does not have to make a lot of effort, if they want to catch additional tax income on foreign sourced remittance:

1) foreigners who remit automatically their pension, even though many are only taxable in Thailand, many of them have been taxed in their home country and because of higher allowances who are over 65 year, the catch will be minimal. So no extra effort will be taken by TRD for this group

 

2) foreigners who remit manually by Wise et al below certain thresholds, the first years 2025/6 many like me will remit first their non accessable income e.g. savings/income prior 2024. So why TRD should bother with this group in the first years, until this income source is depleted

 

I think TRD will focus primarily on manual cash or crypto remittances above certain thresholds [above 2M baht and 30% tax bracket] with no or low tax return declaration attached, or without a Thai TIN or foreign TIN known to the reporting FIs.   

Who knows as with everything else and thousands upon thousand of post and not just this topic but tend to agree somewhat!!!

[The Cyclist]

6 minutes ago, 4myr said:

Just speculating here, why TRD does not have to make a lot of effort, if they want to catch additional tax income on foreign sourced remittance:

1) foreigners who remit automatically their pension, even though many are only taxable in Thailand, many of them have been taxed in their home country and because of higher allowances who are over 65 year, the catch will be minimal. So no extra effort will be taken by TRD for this group

 

2) foreigners who remit manually by Wise et al below certain thresholds, the first years 2025/6 many like me will remit first their non accessable income e.g. savings/income prior 2024. So why TRD should bother with this group in the first years, until this income source is depleted

 

Because it is not actually about raising income from those groups, that some are going to get caught up in it is a side issue.

 

It is about complying with CRS and ensuring that monies / remittances are tax compliant and not engaged in tax evasion.

[4myr]

4 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Because it is not actually about raising income from those groups, that some are going to get caught up in it is a side issue.

 

It is about complying with CRS and ensuring that monies / remittances are tax compliant and not engaged in tax evasion.

 

I don't agree. The majority of law abiding citizens wants to file tax returns if people tell them how to do it.

CRS/avoiding tax evasion and money laundering is just marketing language of a OECD burocracy. Finally it is all about getting more tax bucks with  the least amount of resources.

I think Thailand has put their effort less in communicating to the majority of law abiding citizens and more resources to handle tax returns, but more in back office smart AI software to catch the biggest offenders.

[JimGant]

27 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

My understanding as I've posted before are IRAs Roth and Traditional and also 401k withdrawals are fully accessable if remitted to Thailand while a Thai tax resident. 

For example 10k usd withdrawal, 10k remitted, 10k accessable income in Thailand. All classed as accessable pension income. This oddly even though Roth IRA withdrawals are tax free by the IRS.

Before Por 162, if you had an IRA withdrawal, due, maybe, to Required Minimum Distribution -- and remitted in same year as withdrawal -- Thailand had primary taxation rights on this (but the US secondary rights -- per saving clause -- meaning they also could tax, but would have to absorb a tax credit for the Thai taxes). This was, and is, explicitly spelled out in the US-Thai DTA.

 

But along came Por 162, which, in my reading (discussed in detail, earlier) exempted all IRA withdrawals (except those representing 2024 IRA activity, or later), since such withdrawals were from pre 2024 income, which Por 162 exempts. Anyway, jury, for some, still out on this.

 

So, pre Por 161 and 162 days, the DTA is explicit about IRAs and 401ks having Thailand (country of residence) sole taxation authority, with, due to saving clause in DTA, allowing secondary taxation rights to US. And, for those not believing that IRAs fall under Por 162, then nothing has changed with the DTA, and all subsequent remittances of such IRAs to Thailand will be primarily taxable by Thailand (and secondarily by US, with absorbed tax credit). And, of course, such remitted IRA monies are assessable, and as such, are subject to Thai taxation filing.

 

Roth IRAs are a little more difficult to address, primarily because the US-Thai DTA was approved prior to there ever being Roth IRAs -- so nothing addressing them. However, the US-UK DTA addressed this issue, and added an amendment /protocol that essentially said: If retirement monies, specifically Roth IRAs) are exempt from taxation by the US, such monies are also exempt from UK taxation (correct dialogue in technical explanation of US-UK DTA). Of course, nothing (yet) exists in the US-Thai DTA addressing this, so it's pretty much a quandary, for now. But, the latest OECD and UN Model taxation treaties are addressing this issue, coming to the conclusion that how the US and UK handled the Roth question is where future treaties/related protocols should go.

 

What to do? Well, like my reading of Por 162 exemptions of traditional IRAs, I'd use the same logic for Roth IRAs. And, in fact, you'd probably even be on more solid ground, since the money in Roth IRAs is pre 2024 *after tax* income (at least for the principal, which FIFO nicely covers). Traditional IRAs had *tax deferred/pre tax income* --'tho it's still pre 2024 income, which Por 162 doesn't slice and dice to any degree seen (except maybe by the Expatthaitax folks).

 

Anyway, long winded. Sorry. Just my take on matters -- having dealt with gray areas on the US Tax Code, as a CPA there for several years. Obviously, this doesn't give me any leg-up on Thai tax matters, nor whether or not TRD auditors would be as conciliatory as the auditors I encounters at IRS......

[The Cyclist]

16 minutes ago, 4myr said:

don't agree. The majority of law abiding citizens wants to file tax returns if people tell them how to do it.

 

Someone would need to do a breakdown of some 70 million Thias and the 12 million or so that actually file, which is a Thai domestic issue to deal with.

 

17 minutes ago, 4myr said:

CRS/avoiding tax evasion and money laundering is just marketing language of a OECD burocracy. Finally it is all about getting more tax bucks with  the least amount of resources

 

If you think about logically. It is going to raise very little tax bucks amongst the retiree expat tax residents in Thailand.

 

As many claim to be legitimately exempt due to DTA's.

 

As many claim they are taxed at home and will legitimately pay next to nothing / anything, due to the tax credit system.

 

Which is pretty amazing considering the bandwith and internet pixels wasted by the subject.

 

Remember, it is not Thailand that is driving any of this. It is being driven by the OECD and Thailand joining CRS.

[Jingthing]

Here is something people can do to test how Thailand will deal with US retirement accounts but I would suggest waiting a long time to give them time to develop their policy.

 

Only at offices in expat havens with lots of retired Americans. 

 

Only for people without a TIN.

 

Offices are supposed to turn away people seeking a TIN with no accessable income.

 

So go in there if all your other Income is excluded but you've got a IRA withdrawal.

 

Ask.

 

Do I need a TiN?

 

Have you remitted any accessable income?

 

Well I'm not sure. Please help

 I withdrew 300k baht from my U.S. IRA and remitted that to Thailand but the value of my IRA was 3 million baht end of 2023.

 

Answer:  ?????

 

 

[jwest10]

59 minutes ago, 4myr said:

 

I don't agree. The majority of law abiding citizens wants to file tax returns if people tell them how to do it.

CRS/avoiding tax evasion and money laundering is just marketing language of a OECD burocracy. Finally it is all about getting more tax bucks with  the least amount of resources.

I think Thailand has put their effort less in communicating to the majority of law abiding citizens and more resources to handle tax returns, but more in back office smart AI software to catch the biggest offenders.

Who knows and so many so many so-called experts saying different things as usual

[JimGant]

21 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Do I need a TiN?

 

Have you remitted any accessable income?

 

Well I'm not sure. Please help

 I withdrew 300k baht from my U.S. IRA and remitted that to Thailand but the value of my IRA was 3 million baht end of 2023.

 

Question? Did that IRA consist of pre 2024 Income? Why, yes. And you have heard of FIFO, meaning that 300k remittance certainly didn't encompass any 2024 IRA activity, since your overall value was 3M at end of 2023. Ok. And Por 162 exempts all pre 2024 income, which, by definition of income, certainly includes your IRA. Ok.

 

So, quit wasting my time and get out of here.

[The Cyclist]

24 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Here is something people can do to test how Thailand will deal with US retirement accounts but I would suggest waiting a long time to give them time to develop their policy.

 

Siam legal ( if you ignore that they are a business )

 

Quote

Every Thai tax resident, Thai or foreign, is required to file a tax return, but this does not mean that every Thai tax resident will pay income tax

 

https://www.siam-legal.com/Business-in-Thailand/thailand-income-tax-for-foreigners.php

 

What the RD says about DTA's

 

Quote

C.   Elimination of double taxation

The focus of a DTA is the elimination of double taxation. Each DTA may prescribe different methods of elimination of double taxation of a person by the resident country:

 

I dont think anyone would argue over the reason for DTA's.

 

2 methods of ensuring double taxation does not take place

 

Quote

(1)   Exemption method

The country of residence does not tax the income which according to the DTA is taxed in the source country.

 

Quote

(2)   Credit method

The resident country retains the right to tax the income which was already taxed in the source country. It calculates its tax on the basis of the taxpayer's total income including income from the other country which according to the DTA is taxed in that other country. However, it allows a deduction from its own tax for the tax paid in the other country.

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/21973.html

 

I can find nothing anywhere, that specifically states that foreign tax residents are exempt from tax filing.

 

Or that any overseas monies / incomes remitted to Thailand are classed as non- assessable.

[Jingthing]

19 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Question? Did that IRA consist of pre 2024 Income? Why, yes. And you have heard of FIFO, meaning that 300k remittance certainly didn't encompass any 2024 IRA activity, since your overall value was 3M at end of 2023. Ok. And Por 162 exempts all pre 2024 income, which, by definition of income, certainly includes your IRA. Ok.

 

So, quit wasting my time and get out of here.

That's your answer.

 

[The Cyclist]

4 hours ago, JimGant said:

Actually it suggests one thing -- self-assessment is alive and well. Thailand is acting like an OECD nation, where only a cursory math check is done by algorithm before a refund check is issued.

 

Is the UK an EOCD Nation ?
 

Very few people in the UK are self assessment, the vast majority are PAYE. No algorithms involved.

 

So that blows your theory out the water.

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

6 hours ago, JimGant said:

The majority of my remittances are non assessable monies -- govt pension, social security, savings, etc. That lump sum would have no value to TRD, unless the assessable amount is isolated. And that would require self-assessment from me.

This seems to be the point of some debate on the forum. 

 

You know your remittances are not assessable income, but the TRD does not.  This simple fact prompted many, including myself, to post that a Tax Clearance Certificate may very well be needed at extension time.  This would force foreigners to get a TIN, file, declare their non assessable funds / remittances, be issued the certificate, and it's done, or, pay tax. 

 

The debate appears to be about "self assessment."  One way of thinking is, my funds are not assessable, so no need to file.  The other way of thinking is, I need to file in order to inform the TRD that my funds are not assessable.

 

To date, mixed messages from government and professionals.

 

Time will tell if we ALL have to file, or only those who want to file.  Note I said "want" as opposed to "should,"  It's for this reason I have said without any collection and enforcement, this is no tax policy at all. 

 

Time will tell how this unfolds. 

[jwest10]

10 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

This seems to be the point of some debate on the forum. 

 

You know your remittances are not assessable income, but the TRD does not.  This simple fact prompted many, including myself, to post that a Tax Clearance Certificate may very well be needed at extension time.  This would force foreigners to get a TIN, file, declare their non assessable funds / remittances, be issued the certificate, and it's done, or, pay tax. 

 

The debate appears to be about "self assessment."  One way of thinking is, my funds are not assessable, so no need to file.  The other way of thinking is, I need to file in order to inform the TRD that my funds are not assessable.

 

To date, mixed messages from government and professionals.

 

Time will tell if we ALL have to file, or only those who want to file.  Note I said "want" as opposed to "should,"  It's for this reason I have said without any collection and enforcement, this is no tax policy at all. 

 

Time will tell how this unfolds. 

Who knows, as usual?

[flexomike]

4 hours ago, Jingthing said:

My understanding as I've posted before are IRAs Roth and Traditional and also 401k withdrawals are fully accessable if remitted to Thailand while a Thai tax resident. 

For example 10k usd withdrawal, 10k remitted, 10k accessable income in Thailand. All classed as accessable pension income. This oddly even though Roth IRA withdrawals are tax free by the IRS.

$10,000 dollars that is exactly what I did this year plus my SS

 

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

I can find nothing anywhere, that specifically states that foreign tax residents are exempt from tax filin

Well, that's on the other side of the coin, you know, the side that says: Must only file if assessable income exceeds the 60/120/20k arbitrary thresholds.

[KhunHeineken]

28 minutes ago, jwest10 said:

Who knows, as usual?

We all know the Thai government, and their various departments, like to work in the "grey area" particularly where farang are involved. 

 

We might start to see the flow of information in a few months.  Also, I would not be surprised if the Thai government tweak this policy, more than once, in the near future,  

 

Just too much easy money, either legit or otherwise, from easy targets, to walk away.  . 

 

[oldcpu]

2 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

Siam legal ( if you ignore that they are a business )

 

https://www.siam-legal.com/Business-in-Thailand/thailand-income-tax-for-foreigners.php

 

 

Their examples are also limited.  For example they don't give any example of a scenario which is often referred to in this and other Asean Now threads, where a foreigner with a lot of savings/income from before 1-Jan-2024 brings some or all of that money into Thailand in 2024, or 2025, or any subsequent year, and the amount exceeds the Thai threshold for filing a tax return.  Paw-161/162 are very relevant here in such a scenario.

 

Why did Siam legal not provide that as an example?  My cynical speculation? They don't want to clarify such as they wish to drum up business from people in that category.  But I am also possibly too cynical.

[The Cyclist]

15 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Well, that's on the other side of the coin, you know, the side that says: Must only file if assessable income exceeds the 60/120/20k arbitrary thresholds.

 

Flip the coin back over.

 

Where does it say anywhere, that income only taxable in Country X,Y or Z on a DTA is.

 

1. Non - Assessable for tax purposes in Thailand for Thai Tax Residents ?

 

2 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

(1)   Exemption method

The country of residence does not tax the income which according to the DTA is taxed in the source country.

 

The above from the RD website seems to suggest " Exempt from taxation "  no mention of it being non assessable for tax purposes or even, exempt from tax filing in the case of Thai Tax Residents.

[JimGant]

12 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

The above from the RD website seems to suggest " Exempt from taxation "  no mention of it being non assessable for tax purposes

There's a difference?

[JimGant]

25 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

with a lot of savings/income from before 1-Jan-2024 brings some or all of that money into Thailand in 2024, or 2025, or any subsequent year, and the amount exceeds the Thai threshold for filing a tax return.

Adherence to thresholds doesn't apply to non assessable income. Or, am I missing something?