5 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Sorry, yes, my error.

 

OK so the planets are aligned, there is a place to put exempt income so that's where the US SSc goes, presumably.

 

As she was using my Government Pension, I would assume that any other exempt income would go in the same place.

 

That is also assuming all Revenue Dept Offices are singing off the same hymn sheet. Which, for some reason or other, I find hard to believe 😀😀

2 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

As she was using my Government Pension, I would assume that any other exempt income would go in the same place.

 

That is also assuming all Revenue Dept Offices are singing off the same hymn sheet. Which, for some reason or other, I find hard to believe 😀😀

Section B at the bottom of the form lists exempted income but I can't see the categories because the form is cut off. All we really need is somewhere to list those exempted items so they can be carried forward, failing that, a total as you have done appears to suffice.. 

4 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Pak Chong. And here is the kicker.

 

I am not convinced that she knew what she was talking about. Despite me going through the DTA and not being taxable in Thailand.

 

She initially started talking about the UK tax already paid and Personal deductions and showing me how these should be put on the form.

 

Perhaps just how they work, but was totally stumped when I asked what difference any of that made when the top line figure is not taxable. Blank look.

 

So I am hoping that the updated PND 91 has a separate section for non - assessable income or the small RD office gives me the same answer as last year.

 

I am now currently in limbo until the new PND's are released into the public domain.

What determined that you had to US PND91, all of my income is transfered into Thailand from the US and I was under the impression if no sourced money was earned in Thailand that I had to use the PND90. Appreciate it if you could give me some feedback on this

1 minute ago, chiang mai said:

Section B at the bottom of the form lists exempted income but I can't see the categories because the form is cut off. All we really need is somewhere to list those exempted items so they can be carried forward

 

Its a standard PND 91

 

2 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

a total as you have done appears to suffice.

 

It wasn't me that done that, it was the girl at the Revenue Department.

 

After she had mucked about with deductions and tax, before it sank in that it was non taxable in Thailand

2 minutes ago, flexomike said:

What determined that you had to US PND91

 

The girl at the Revenue Office. Whether every Revenue Office is the same, I have no idea.

On 1/4/2025 at 4:02 AM, anchadian said:

The Director-General of the Revenue Department on Thursday called on taxpayers

I'm ex-directory - never got the call 

7 minutes ago, flexomike said:

What determined that you had to US PND91, all of my income is transfered into Thailand from the US and I was under the impression if no sourced money was earned in Thailand that I had to use the PND90. Appreciate it if you could give me some feedback on this

I posted the following earlier:

 

The Difference Between PND. 90 and PND. 91?

• PND. 90 is the Personal Income Tax Return form for both foreign nationals and Thai citizens who have assessable income under Sections 40(1) to (8) from multiple sources or a single source. Everyone must file this form by March 31 of every year.
• PND. 91 on the other hand, is the Personal Income Tax Return form for both foreign nationals and Thai citizens who have assessable income under Section 40(1) from employment only. Everyone must file this form by March 31 of every year, just like PND. 90

https://lawyer-vwork.com/en/what-are-pnd-90-91-how-important-to-foreigners/

 

Note: a pension is deemed to be from employment.

On 1/4/2025 at 4:02 AM, anchadian said:

The Director-General of the Revenue Department on Thursday called on taxpayers to file their end-of-year returns for 2024.

How exactly is is going to do that, does he know where they all live so he can send a letter?

 

On 1/4/2025 at 5:30 PM, Andre0720 said:

I wonder about that.

I used to work for the Revenue Department in my country. Then Income tax was my hobby for many years.

(Does not make me an expert here in Thai taxation).

But I would understand the terms 'declarable' as income, for income tax 'assessment' by the local Tax Office, with a view to determine if income tax money is owed to the country.

If I remember correctly, the unit I initially worked in was referred to as 'Initial assessment'. To determine how much they could easily grab. Because our dear governments always keep the option of 'secondary assessment'.

I suppose that such terms get their own meaning according to rule of law of each country.

 

 

Did they go after foreigners with no Work Permit?

1 minute ago, Neeranam said:

How exactly is is going to do that, does he know where they all live so he can send a letter?

 

It's based on the honor system, you've been told so you need to file (if you do indeed need to file). If you don't file when you should have filed, you can't say you didn't know because ignorance of the law is no excuse....that's the way the system works.

Just now, chiang mai said:

It's based on the honor system, you've been told so you need to file (if you do indeed need to file). If you don't file when you should have filed, you can't say you didn't know because ignorance of the law is no excuse....that's the way the system works.

I mean how is it going to be officially relayed? Through immigration is the only way I can see everyone being told officially. 

Just now, Neeranam said:

I mean how is it going to be officially relayed? Through immigration is the only way I can see everyone being told officially. 

The same way it always is officially relayed, via the media and press announcements such as the one in the op. What do you want, an official, personalised embossed initiation! 

1 minute ago, chiang mai said:

The same way it always is officially relayed, via the media and press announcements such as the one in the op. What do you want, an official, personalised embossed initiation! 

It doesn't affect me but not everyone reads the Thai Examiner or AseanNow. 

Perhaps one's Embassy will notify. 

Maybe yuo are not aware but just because the head of the RD says so, doesn't mean it's law. 

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

TRD has always told me that they don't want to know about exempt income when filing a return. Despite that, I told them anyway so they just ignored it.

Kudos to TRD, for extracting the chaff from the wheat.

4 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

It doesn't affect me but not everyone reads the Thai Examiner or AseanNow. 

Perhaps one's Embassy will notify. 

Maybe yuo are not aware but just because the head of the RD says so, doesn't mean it's law. 

Oh come on, how many times does this need to be said! There is no new law, POR 161/162 are reinterpretations of existing laws, no new laws are needed.

5 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Kudos to TRD, for extracting the chaff from the wheat.

I hope they're better at making bread because this stuff isn't going great!

1 minute ago, chiang mai said:

Oh come on, how many times does this need to be said! There is no new law, POR 161/162 are reinterpretations of existing laws, no new laws are needed.

We are talking about different thing I think. 

There are people here who don't work here panicking about having to pay tax, which they don't have to. The OP is talking about people working here with Work Permits. 

4 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

We are talking about different thing I think. 

There are people here who don't work here panicking about having to pay tax, which they don't have to. The OP is talking about people working here with Work Permits. 

"Expats with over 180 days in Thailand must submit returns for income remitted in 2024". 

 

The term "expat" is short for expatriate, which means a person who lives outside their own country, temporarily or permanently.....that's all it means. Anyway, those people with work permits, wouldn't remit their income here, would they!

5 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

Perhaps just how they work, but was totally stumped when I asked what difference any of that made when the top line figure is not taxable. Blank look.

Out of curiosity, does your spreadsheet show you don't owe any Thai taxes (but you're supposed to file 'cause your assessable income exceeded 120/220k)? And, when the lady implied you needed to fill in line items with non assessable income -- when no such lines exist -- did you realize this was a certifiable goat **ck? And, then, did you ever consider walking away, knowing that, by not owing any taxes, you were not subject to any injurious penalties -- and you were totally wasting an otherwise good day?

 

Just curious.

Here's a screenshot of an old PND91's section B that lists the type of income that is exempt.

 

It seems to be very prescriptive with respect to the types of income that are exempt and has no place to declare income exempt due to DTA.

 

Is the form for 2024 any different?

 

 

6 hours ago, Mutt Daeng said:

Very useful post thanks @NoDisplayName

 

I've just tried to create a RD online account, so I could have a peek at the e-filing system and see what it looks like using Chrome's built in translate-to-english tool (as I cannot read Thai). I got to the final screen and was required to tick a box to confirm all my data was correct and that I understood the agreement to submit the return via the electronic system and that I agreed to comply and be bound by the agreement to submit the return via electronic system in all respects. When I saw that, I cancelled the application because I don't want to commit to electronic filing at this point in time. 

 

 

Just now, jwest10 said:

 

Many can not get a Tin and been told so and yes can not do full stop and been told several times by the local Revenue Office I do not need to hill in a tax form with my personal information and well below the current thresholds!!!

4 hours ago, topt said:

Correct me please if wrong  - So therefore all the numbers you put in will go towards assessable income. After taking of TEDA it will spew out a tax amount no. that you are supposed to pay there and then - if filing in person at an RD office?

 

So as you say no way to cancel out non-assessable income be it savings from pre 2023 end or for example US SS payments exempted by DTA. 

Can somebody who has filed and included US SS payments but in total has filed for more than their TEDA comment on how that was handled?

 

My remittances were all prior savings, so not declared.

My only income listed was interest and dividends.

~13K baht total, so taxes withheld ~2K,

Well under TEDA, so full refund.

 

US SocSec in non-assessable, not taxable, so NOT included in your declared assessable income.  It's invisible to Thailand, as though doesn't exist.

24 minutes ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

Here's a screenshot of an old PND91's section B that lists the type of income that is exempt.

 

It seems to be very prescriptive with respect to the types of income that are exempt and has no place to declare income exempt due to DTA.

 

Is the form for 2024 any different?

 

 

 

The 2024 PND91 form itself looks pretty much identical to its 2023 predecessor. However the separate "Allowance(s) And Exemption(s) After Deduction Of Expense(s)" attachment (needed for both PND90 & PND91 returns) does now include 4 new categories, as follows (with thanks to Mr Google for the English translations):

 

20. ค่าจ้างก่อสร้างอาคารเพื่ออยู่อาศัยขึ้นใหม่ให้แก่ผู้รับจ้างซึ่งเป็นผู้ประกอบการจดทะเบียนภาษีมูลค่าเพิ่ม
21. ค่าท่องเที่ยวภายในประเทศ (ตั้งแต่วันที่ 1 พ.ค. 2567 – 30 พ.ย. 2567)
22. ค่าซ่อมบ้าน (จากอุทกภัยระหว่างวันที่ 16 ส.ค. 2567 - 31 ธ.ค. 2567)
23. ค่าซ่อมรถ (จากอุทกภัยระหว่างวันที่ 16 ส.ค. 2567 - 31 ธ.ค. 2567)

 

20. Construction costs for new residential buildings for contractors who are VAT registered operators
21. Domestic tourism expenses (Since the date 1 May 2024 – 30 Nov 2024)
22. Home repair costs (from flooding between 16 Aug 2024 - 31 Dec 2024)
23. Car repair costs (from flooding between 16 Aug 2024 - 31 Dec 2024).

 

Can't see too many of us expats being affected by these additional categories!

16 minutes ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

Here's a screenshot of an old PND91's section B that lists the type of income that is exempt.

 

It seems to be very prescriptive with respect to the types of income that are exempt and has no place to declare income exempt due to DTA.

 

Is the form for 2024 any different?

 

 

 

Those are all exemptions to Thai-sourced income.

28 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

"Expats with over 180 days in Thailand must submit returns for income remitted in 2024". 

 

The term "expat" is short for expatriate, which means a person who lives outside their own country, temporarily or permanently.....that's all it means. Anyway, those people with work permits, wouldn't remit their income here, would they!

 

Teachers earning just the basic school salary might be remitting income from their home countries.

22 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Out of curiosity

 

Out of curiosity. You can read can't you ?

2 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Sure. That is what the told me last February, exept only 1 source of income was exempt, Gov Pension, my private pension should ( in theory anyway ) have been taxable.

 

At the small local office.

 

 

Well, that is what we all ( including me ) believed. Rocks up today ( Only Gov Pension ) and was told otherwise, at the big Office.

 

Here is her pencilled scribbles to help me fill it

 

 

 

You will notice that she has applied 

 

100,000 Baht deduction for a Pension

 

60,000 Baht deduction for me

 

And some mental withholding tax thing, which by that stage I had lost all interest, so it could be anything.

 

Total tax payable 0

Seriously those figures do not make  any sense whatsoever and where the allowances?

7 hours ago, ronnie50 said:

I guess he means 'tax friendly' for expats. TBH, I looked at all three of them before (the government websites and PwC pages on all of them). Philippines still seems possible for tax free, but complicated with many hoops - devil in the detail, Malaysia is not clear whether passive income is taxed (it says flat rate of 30% on foreign residents' income, then it says some income from abroad can be tax free), Cambodia also opaque, mentioning employment is taxable, but is silent on other forms of income for foreigners. Thing is OECD (and the US) is pressuring all countries to adopt a global income taxation on residents in order to close loopholes - and I guess all countries see it in their best interests as it will raise revenues. This is why Portugal and some other formerly 'expat tax friendly' countries are caving in. The three menionted earlier were the last remaining potential places to avoid income tax, but with low confidence of that IMO.

El Salvador is where I'm looking for a few months a year, as their national currency is Bitcoin. 

1 hour ago, CallumWK said:

 

Where you got that English language form. Is it available for download now?

 As of 6th January none

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

Sorry, yes, my error.

 

OK so the planets are aligned, there is a place to put exempt income so that's where the US SSc goes, presumably.

 

Maybe, maybe likely not.

 

Did the TRD lady just put in a big, fat, hairy zero as that was her arbitrary final determination, or was that where the flow of calculations on the worksheet ended up?

 

If the former, then anyone listing non-assessable income will need to file in person, as the online system appears to be unable to simply "poof" it out of existence.