Thai tax tangle: Expats warned of new rules on overseas income

[Jingthing]

7 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Maybe because not everyone is living here on pre 2024 savings, and their fortnightly / monthly social security payments are not covered by a DTA.

 

Example:  the Australian old age pension is not covered by a DTA. 

 

Do you have any advice for the thousands of Aussie old aged pensioners living fortnight to fortnight in Thailand on their pension? 

That's not what I was talking about.

Obviously if you have remitted accessable income over the threshold, then you are required to file, so that's a matter of compliance. 
Filing when you know you don't need to is defensive.

[oldcpu]

1 minute ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Based on today's video. Tax Resident, remit income fr

The UK - Thai DTA will prove that my Pension is not subject to Thai taxation.

 

I recall currently por.161/162 exempt remitted foreign income ( and hence not assessable) means you have inadequate assessable income for a while in regards to tax filing?.

 

At present I see no place in any Thai tax return to file as a deduction that exempt income ( such as your pension which you claim not taxable per DTA). This is not new. The requirements to file have been around for years. I am curious where such a deduction should be in the tax forms. I spent ( wasted?) some time looking. 

[Neeranam]

1 minute ago, KhunHeineken said:

Thai's don't need a visa to live in Thailand. 

 

A Thai bank isn't even a government department, but you need a document from your Thai bank at extension time. 

 

Or, a clever TRD sees it as and easy, cheap, and effective method to force foreigners into a TRD office. 

 

I meant show the document for some other reason. 

 

I wasn't talking about banks, but RD and Immigration. Police and Government don't like dealing with each other and avoid it if they can. 

Thai banks do not give information to RD unless huge amounts are being remitted, no pension-sized ones. I don't need a visa extension, I'm Thai. 

 

A RD officer does not know about a foreigner, unless they stupidly go there and ask them iof they can get a TIN to pay tax. 

[The Cyclist]

1 minute ago, oldcpu said:

I recall currently por.161/162 exempt remitted foreign income ( and hence not assessable) means you have inadequate assessable income for a while in regards to tax filing?.

 

No idea what you are talking about.

[KhunHeineken]

8 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Bingo

 

Even though I know 120% that my UK Government Pension is not taxable in Thailand.

 

2 Agencies I am going to go out of my way not to upset, Immigration and The RD.

I hear you. 

 

To date, just about every member bends over backwards not to breach any immigration laws, yet, many don't seem to see the TRD laws in the same light.  Interesting. 

 

I'm sure the Thai government has more twists in the tail  for foreigners in relation to this tax.  2025 will just be the start of its evolution.  

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Thai banks do not give information to RD unless huge amounts are being remitted, no pension-sized ones. I don't need a visa extension, I'm Thai. 

 

A RD officer does not know about a foreigner, unless they stupidly go there and ask them iof they can get a TIN to pay tax. 

 

Thai Banks need to report held accounts by June every year to the RD.

 

RD have to consolidate and report to ( BoT ? ) by September every year.

 

The RD knows every foreigner that holds an account in a Thai bank.

[BE88]

47 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

 

If the money remitted to buy a condo was earned after 31 December 2023 and you don't have a the appropriate LTR visa for tax exemption, the answer is yes.  Otherwise no. 

 

Despite the fact that the PM at the time was a condo developer, the government didn't think to make any exemption for money remitted to buy property.  Duh!  Similar exemptions to investment in Thai stocks, private businesses or Thai bonds might have been a good idea too.  But this was clearly not thought through by the government.  In fact they were not even involved.  There was no amendment to the Revenue code that would have had to go through parliament and no ministerial regulation that would have been approved by the finance minister.  They just allowed the director general of the Revenue Department to issue a departmental order which is only binding on Revenue Department staff, not on taxpayers.  A few days after signing the order, he vacated the position. So the badly thought out order was his parting shot for Thai taxpayers and expats.

 

This situation is the type of mess that results from government not doing its job and just allowing bureaucrats to do what they want without any parliamentary scrutiny or public scrutiny.  

 

It seems to me that you wanted to give an affirmative answer, it is the simplest thing to do not to be a resident in Thailand for less than 179 days

 

[KhunHeineken]

2 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Police and Government don't like dealing with each other and avoid it if they can. 

Huh?

 

Police work for the government.

 

3 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Thai banks do not give information to RD unless huge amounts are being remitted, no pension-sized ones.

You completely missed the point. 

 

Here's another example for you. 

 

A Thai drivers license.  Foreigners need a certificate of residence to produce to the land transport office. 

 

Do you not see there are occasions where you need a document from one entity / department to produce to another department?

 

6 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I don't need a visa extension, I'm Thai. 

Sort of makes your posts irrelevant then, doesn't it? 

 

6 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

A RD officer does not know about a foreigner, unless they stupidly go there and ask them iof they can get a TIN to pay tax. 

Or, immigration will not process their extension without a certificate from the TRD.  Do you get it now? 

[Neeranam]

3 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Thai Banks need to report held accounts by June every year to the RD.

Only if there are more than 3,000 inward transactions or over 2 million baht a year. 

For foreigners who are tax resident here, if their account was opened  after August 16, 2023.

 

[KhunHeineken]

3 minutes ago, BE88 said:

 

It seems to me that you wanted to give an affirmative answer, it is the simplest thing to do not to be a resident in Thailand for less than 179 days

 

I agree, and it's been well discussed. 

 

For new retirees looking to set up their retirement in Thailand, transfer in your 800k baht, and whatever money to purchase a property, perhaps a car also. 

 

Buy everything, but only stay in Thailand for 179 days that calendar year.   

[Neeranam]

8 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Huh?

 

Police work for the government.

I mean they are completely different organizational departments. During times of military govt, do you remember any problems? 

RTP =  Office of the Prime Minister.

RD = Ministry of Finance

[bkk6060]

27 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Example:  the Australian old age pension is not covered by a DTA. 

 

Do you have any advice for the thousands of Aussie old aged pensioners living fortnight to fortnight in Thailand on their pension? 

Sounds like some people in your countries government are very stupid.  These types of pensions are pretty basic in DTA.

Advice?  Get together and write letters to your government officials.

[The Cyclist]

3 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Only if there are more than 3,000 inward transactions or over 2 million baht a year. 

For foreigners who are tax resident here, if their account was opened  after August 16, 2023.

 

 

Low value accounts became reportable from 01 Jan 2024.

 

You getting the pattern yet about changes becoming effective 01 Jan 2024 ?

[KhunHeineken]

3 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Only if there are more than 3,000 inward transactions or over 2 million baht a year. 

For foreigners who are tax resident here, if their account was opened  after August 16, 2023.

 

If that's the case, why did I receive an email from Kasikorn bank, as did many others, and I have to go in there and sign some forms related to nationality and taxation?

[KhunHeineken]

Just now, Neeranam said:

I mean they are completely different departments. During times of military govt, do you remember any problems? 

I couldn't care less what problems they have with each other.  I only care about what problems they can make for me. 

[oldcpu]

2 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

 

Buy everything, but only stay in Thailand for 179 days that calendar year.   

 

Only if one dislikes the paperwork from a Thai tax return,  or if one has income from a foreign source with no DTA with Thailand. 

[oldcpu]

2 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

If that's the case, why did I receive an email from Kasikorn bank, as did many others, and I have to go in there and sign some forms related to nationality and taxation?

I suspect that was for different reasons.

[Neeranam]

1 minute ago, KhunHeineken said:

I couldn't care less what problems they have with each other.  I only care about what problems they can make for me. 

You can use it to your advantage if you know which organizational structures they fall under. 

For example, Dept of Labour and Immigration rarely communicate, so you could leave a job and keep your visa until the end. 

My point, they don't interact like in other countries., 

[Neeranam]

5 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

If that's the case, why did I receive an email from Kasikorn bank, as did many others, and I have to go in there and sign some forms related to nationality and taxation?

To see if you are a Yank or not. 

[NoDisplayName]

2 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

That's it, simple as that, say the money is not assessable and there is no further action.  

 

That seems to be about it.  Few reports, if any, of anyone being questioned on that and having to produce documentation.

 

For most instances, when the TRD lady asks if your remittances were "salary or pension", you say "savings" and that's the end of it.

 

This is a new world order now, and Kenya has signed up for CRS, so who knows what will happen.  Someone remitting a million baht every two months might somehow get on the TRD radar, and be questioned about their null tax return.  At that point, they may need to provide more than their assurance that it was prior savings.

 

Hasn't seem to have happened yet.

[Neeranam]

4 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

I couldn't care less what problems they have with each other.  I only care about what problems they can make for me. 

Best to stay under the radar...... ie do nothing until made to, 95% of things you worry about never happen...

[NoDisplayName]

2 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

It goes back to the debate, how does the TRD know your income is not assessable unless you prove to them it is not? 

 

The way the game is currently played is the reverse.

 

How would TRD know you have assessable income unless you declare it?

[jwest10]

2 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

So, say a retired expat is living in Thailand and owns ten rental properties back in his home country, thus, no pension for him.  

 

He remits say 1.5 million baht a year into his Thai bank account.  He lives in Thailand full time, so over 180 days a year.  

 

He does NOTHING about this tax, zero, zilch, nada, and continues on living in Thailand as if none of it ever happened.  

 

If questioned, his plan is to say "the money I remit is not assessable" and YOU seem to think that will fly. 

 

That's it, simple as that, say the money is not assessable and there is no further action.  

 

So, the Thai banks, the TRD, and Immigration, will have absolutely NOTHING in place to stop such an easy loop hole.  Really????    

 

Most pensions from around the world go over the Thailand tax threshold.  It goes back to the debate, how does the TRD know your income is not assessable unless you prove to them it is not? 

 

Then, you would want some proof that you have proved it to them, and that will be a certificate showing zero tax to pay, which I predict, will be needed by immigration in the future. 

 

It will be interesting to see how it unfolds, but I'm sure it's not going to be as easy as saying "my remittances is non assessable income."

Rubbish  comment about most people getting more pension then the allowances and just beggar to differ that is all ok

[BE88]

18 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

I agree, and it's been well discussed. 

 

For new retirees looking to set up their retirement in Thailand, transfer in your 800k baht, and whatever money to purchase a property, perhaps a car also. 

 

Buy everything, but only stay in Thailand for 179 days that calendar year.   

 

To avoid all the new problems and that's what I'm doing this year even though I've been here for over ten years waiting to see what will happen

 

[NoDisplayName]

2 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Nailed in the latest video.

 

Tax Resident, remit income after 01 Jan 2024, it is assessable income.

 

Some of that assessable income will not be taxable, due to DTA's etc

 

Tax resident, remit assessable income after Jan 01 2024, it is assessable income, is included on tax returns, figures into PIT calculation, and is potentially taxable.

 

Tax resident, remit non-assessable income after Jan 01, 2024, it is non-assessable, is not included on tax returns, does not figure into PIT calculations, and is completely exempt from taxation.

[SHA 2 BKK]

36 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Maybe because not everyone is living here on pre 2024 savings, and their fortnightly / monthly social security payments are not covered by a DTA.

 

Example:  the Australian old age pension is not covered by a DTA. 

 

Do you have any advice for the thousands of Aussie old aged pensioners living fortnight to fortnight in Thailand on their pension? 

Absolutely not!  I don't give Tax Advice and certainly not Thai Tax advice - everyone should be aware of the rules and laws and their own personal circumstances - the best I can offer is that they seek professional advice from a Thai registered advisor if they are in doubt.  

 

However as part of this forum and noting my personal Thai tax considerations,  per the video posted this morning and taking the advice from the nice chap from the Revenue Department not to seek a TIN and file a return if one has no assessable income, see no need to file a Thai tax return this year.  I have saved pre 2024 income, a DTA exempt Pension and an LTR Visa - I can easily prove all of this if ever requested.

 

Everyone's situation will be different including yours KhunHeineken.

[Ben Zioner]

Sure, and my point was that we shouldn't get our knickers in a twist right now. Hedge as much as we can and adapt as time tells us what the new reality actually is.

[NoDisplayName]

2 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

Good luck trying to shoehorn them into your annual tax return

 

Speaking of horning shoes, how did YOU shoehorn deducting non-assessable income from your declared remittances prior to calculating tax?  How did You take a tax credit for foreign tax paid?

 

Oh, I forgot..............................You haven't filed.

[Neeranam]

4 minutes ago, SHA 2 BKK said:

per the video posted this morning

Video from whom?

[SHA 2 BKK]

1 minute ago, Neeranam said:

Video from whom?

The Cyclist 55555