Road Safety in Thailand – a summary of Perceptions and Reality

[Phulublub]

8 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

They are reckless:

 

Drunk driving

No helmet

Pulling out without looking

Not indicating

Not proper training

Too fast

Too slow

On the phone

Not using mirrors

Motorbikes overloaded

etc

A lot on that list could equally apply to many othe rnationalities, both in their own countries and here.  We could, if we wanted to be flippant, say that the majority on the list apply to pretty much all BMW drivers worldwide.

 

PH

[scubascuba3]

1 hour ago, Phulublub said:

A lot on that list could equally apply to many othe rnationalities, both in their own countries and here.  We could, if we wanted to be flippant, say that the majority on the list apply to pretty much all BMW drivers worldwide.

 

PH

We are talking about Thailand and Thais and they are the worst I've seen at those things in the list, but of course the system is rubbish too, training, law enforcement etc

[Hummin]

4 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

We are talking about Thailand and Thais and they are the worst I've seen at those things in the list, but of course the system is rubbish too, training, law enforcement etc

The gulf states back in 90ies and early 2000 is something of the worst I have seen in my life. They had the infrastructure, power and sports cars, but no driving skills or ethics. As well they where heavily toxicated as well, alchohol or drugs

[richard_smith237]

7 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Many drivers and riders are incompetent. 

And they don't get any better in part because of the non-existing law enforcement.

 

Poor road infrastructure in itself is no reason for deadly accidents. In many countries there are a lot worse roads than in Thailand. People have to adjust their speed to the conditions, that should be common sense. But in Thailand many riders and drivers ignore this simple fact. Which brings us back to my first line: Many drivers and riders are incompetent. 

 

It doesn't matter what you write and how accurate it is....   You will be contradicted because there is only one person on this forum who is allowed to 'know anything' about road safety.... 

 

His comments are 'text book theory' - ignore a lot of the realities of the real world and human nature... 

 

Yours is a perfect example....  how you rightly highlight how other area's have worse conditions, worse roads, worse driver education yet better road fatality stats...    ALL 'he' would in this is racism' and for sure, he'll drop that accusation as he does every time his 'text book theory' is shown to be flawed in the real world.

 

 

 

6 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

There is no point in arguing with the guy who started this thread. He just knows he is right and anybody else is ignorant. And he doesn't want to listen because he knows it all.

There... 100%... 

[OneMoreFarang]

4 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

It doesn't matter what you write and how accurate it is....   You will be contradicted because there is only one person on this forum who is allowed to 'know anything' about road safety.... 

 

His comments are 'text book theory' - ignore a lot of the realities of the real world and human nature... 

 

Yours is a perfect example....  how you rightly highlight how other area's have worse conditions, worse roads, worse driver education yet better road fatality stats...    ALL 'he' would in this is racism' and for sure, he'll drop that accusation as he does every time his 'text book theory' is shown to be flawed in the real world.

 

 

 

There... 100%... 

 

Thanks!

It seems on some topics we disagree and on other topics we agree. Great!

This is how discussions should work. Not our team against your team or I am always opposite from you.

It is perfectly ok to have sometimes similar opinions and sometimes different opinions. That's how it should be.

[KannikaP]

17 hours ago, kwilco said:

I've studied road safety world over and over 20 years in Thailand. I'm amazed by the ignorance and rubbish written in the social madia about driving in Thailand

 

Just because you can drive doesn't make you an "expert" on road safety..........

Thailand has one of the highest road fatality rates in the world, with around 25,000 deaths annually. The public and government responses to road safety issues are often misguided, focusing on blaming "bad drivers" rather than addressing systemic failures.

 

Road Safety and Media Reporting

The media often reports crashes as isolated incidents rather than as part of a larger public health crisis.

Comprehensive road safety strategies, including better data collection and analysis, are lacking in Thailand.

International organizations have provided recommendations, but these are often ignored.

 

Common Misconceptions and Cognitive Biases

Confirmation Bias: People tend to focus on evidence that supports their existing beliefs about Thai drivers being reckless.

Cognitive Dissonance: Many fail to accept new information that contradicts their assumptions about road safety.

Many foreigners perceive Thai drivers as incompetent, but the real issue is inadequate enforcement of laws and poor road infrastructure.

 

Key Causes of Road Accidents

Speeding: Higher speeds significantly increase crash severity.

Drink-Driving: A major contributor, with Thailand’s rate among the highest in the world.

Lack of Helmet Use: Over 75% of road deaths involve motorcyclists, often due to non-compliance with helmet laws.

Distracted Driving: e.g - The rise of mobile phone use has worsened the problem.

Unsafe Infrastructure: Poor road design and lack of pedestrian safety measures.

Inadequate Law Enforcement: Existing traffic laws are weakly enforced, often due to corruption.

 

Statistical Issues

Thai crash statistics are inconsistent and unreliable.

The Thai police primarily record deaths at the scene but fail to track later fatalities and injuries.

WHO data suggests Thailand has a road fatality rate of 32.7 deaths per 100,000 people, one of the worst globally.

 

Driving Culture in Thailand

Traffic norms in Thailand differ from Western countries.

Drivers often don’t use indicators and have an unusual codes and styles of driving, making defensive driving crucial for newcomers.

Road social hierarchies exist, with wealthier individuals facing fewer consequences in traffic incidents.

Don't overlook the historical influence of river traffic either!

 

Legal and Enforcement Challenges

Corruption among law enforcement makes proper road policing ineffective.

Many traffic stops are aimed at collecting bribes rather than enforcing safety.

Legal fines are often negotiable on the spot.

 

Potential Solutions: The Safe System Approach

Education: Public awareness campaigns on safe driving.

Enforcement: Stricter implementation of traffic laws.

Engineering: Improved road and vehicle safety standards.

Emergency Response: Faster and more efficient post-crash care.

Evaluation: Data-driven policy-making.

 

 

 

Thailand needs a systemic shift in road safety management. Road safety is a public Health issue. Instead of blaming individual drivers, authorities must focus on structural changes, stricter law enforcement, and improved road design. Implementing proven international strategies like Sweden’s “Vision Zero” could significantly reduce fatalities. Until such reforms take place, Thailand’s roads will remain among the deadliest in the world.

Which AI did you use for this please?

[MangoKorat]

8 hours ago, kwilco said:

"Reducing Thailand’s road safety issues to just 'lack of enforcement' is an oversimplification that ignores the complexity of the problem. Road safety is influenced by infrastructure, vehicle standards, education, emergency response, and public awareness. A real solution requires a comprehensive approach—not just one fix."

There are no doubt, many issues that need attention but if the existing rules were enforced and proper punishments issued, it would make a massive difference.

 

Even the decision makers are guilty. Where the road from my home meets the main road leading from Highway 2 to Khao Yai there used to be a set of traffic lights.  There were many accidents there - 99% of which were caused by people on the main road running red lights, sometimes long after they had changed.  I believe one year there was a total of 5 deaths there. The local authority's answer - take out the lights and put in 2 U-turns.  We all know that U-turns are also very unsafe and there have already been several accidents at the U-turns. I find it ridiculous that they can't (maybe won't) make Thai drivers stop running red lights.

 

I regularly see people in the UK run red or amber lights but not 10 seconds afterwards.

 

They have laws, they have a police force (rarely seen after 5pm), I really can't understand the problem. I repeat - enforcement would make a massive difference.

[MangoKorat]

Doing something about road safety and law enforcement instead of talking about it is key to this.

 

Its not so far from Songkran and the carnage that ensues.  We will shorlty be bombarded with the annual 'talk' about what the Thai authorities intend doing to reduce the huge amount of road deaths and injuries that happen every year at both Songkran and New Year.  Politicians will be spouting off on TV and in the media - as they do every year.

 

Thai politicians and authorities simply talk a lot and do nothing - they are famous for it but this matter has real consequences. Last year there were 480 deaths recorded on Thai roads during Songkran - yet in my 22 years of involvement with Thailand, nothing has been done. Year in year out, the carnage continues.

[Gottfrid]

9 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

Ignorance is bliss with you, everyone knows people see the list above day in day out.

 

How many km a year do you drive or ride here? i do about 25k km so i see a lot

So, you drive about 70 km per day. I assume you are not retired, as that would spoil retirement totally!

[scubascuba3]

3 minutes ago, Gottfrid said:

So, you drive about 70 km per day. I assume you are not retired, as that would spoil retirement totally!

Cycling about a 100km 4 days a week, motorbike about 80km 2 days a week, golf, easy enough

[Will B Good]

18 hours ago, kwilco said:

Key Causes of Road Accidents

Speeding: Higher speeds significantly increase crash severity.

Drink-Driving: A major contributor, with Thailand’s rate among the highest in the world.

Lack of Helmet Use: Over 75% of road deaths involve motorcyclists, often due to non-compliance with helmet laws.

Distracted Driving: e.g - The rise of mobile phone use has worsened the problem.

Unsafe Infrastructure: Poor road design and lack of pedestrian safety measures.

Inadequate Law Enforcement: Existing traffic laws are weakly enforced, often due to corruption.

 

How does 'Lack of Helmet' use cause road accidents?

[Will B Good]

18 hours ago, kwilco said:

Confirmation Bias: People tend to focus on evidence that supports their existing beliefs about Thai drivers being reckless.

 

True...and my evidence that supports my belief is the totally reckless driving I see when I drive between Chaiyaphum and BKK about once every six weeks........MANY Thai drivers are thoroughly reckless.

[Gottfrid]

1 hour ago, scubascuba3 said:

Cycling about a 100km 4 days a week, motorbike about 80km 2 days a week, golf, easy enough

At least you know what you are doing. 

[spidermike007]

Nowhere else in the world have I seen people consistency take the kinds of chances and risks in the road, that they take here, with their families in the car. Nowhere. When they could have waited four seconds to make the uturn or turn onto the highway, and have a completely clear path, they instead choose to take a tremendous risk. It is beyond comprehension. I see it all the time. My eyes do not lie to me. This rarely ever happens to me in the US.

 

If I decide to cut you off on a highway, when you are going 120kph, and I am making a u-turn, and there was plenty of room behind you for me to make a safe turn, is that an error, if it results in a horrific, fatal accident, and I take the lives of you and your family? Or is that pure recklessness? 

 

Sometimes an error is wearing white after Labor day in New York City. And sometimes an error is Germany invading Russia before the oncoming winter.

 

I don't make the kind of errors that result in bad accidents, much less fatalities. Why? Because I am very, very careful on the road, and very, very respectful of other drivers, their lives, and those of their families. That is a choice that results in NOT making very many terrible mistakes.

 

It most certainly has something to do with the inability to visualize. Neither the future, nor the hypothetical. What will happen in this scenario? What about this? What about that? What are the inherent risks involved in piloting my bike, car or truck onto the safety lane of a major highway, in the wrong direction, with big trucks coming at me at 100kph? Or onto a lane of a major highway, with oncoming traffic going 120kph? Is it worth sacrificing my life, or my ability to walk for the rest of my life? How will my death affect my kids? Hold on, what about the lives of my wife, kids and sister who are in the vehicle with me, and I am responsible for their safety. Wow. That would be a big loss. An entire family. Maybe I should act like an adult, and be prudent and careful.

 

What if I waited four seconds for the highway lane to be completely clear, rather than just barge into it now, and risk everything.

 

I don't think many Thais ever ponder thoughts like this. Why, I can't imagine. It is likely something we will never understand about their nature. I often like to say the best way to understand these differences in attitude and intellect, is to realize Thailand is NOT a foreign country. It is a distant planet.

[kwilco]

3 hours ago, KannikaP said:

Which AI did you use for this please?

I take that s a compliment - I've been writing on Thailand's road safety for 20 years - just check my other posts.

[KannikaP]

34 minutes ago, kwilco said:

I take that s a compliment - I've been writing on Thailand's road safety for 20 years - just check my other posts.

Can TV/AN go back 20 years?

But it ain't done any good!   5555

[kwilco]

So long as people see road safety in Thailand as “bad driving” or in racial stereotypes they will never understand the situation nor will their attitudes contribute to improving it.

 

They need to understand how road safety works – it’s a science and like gravity, bacteria or the periodic table, applies universally.

 

The idea behind Road Safety and systems like the safe system is to create a transport system where crashes CAN”T happen – it has been shown that you can’t rely on drivers anywhere in the world to do this.

 

The changes required to bring about an improvement in this dire situation can be categorised in terms of 5 “E”s …

 

The 5 “E”s

The main pillars of the  Safe System can be defines as follows: - The 5 “E”s of road safety.

For over 3 decades Thailand has had various “Road Safety Action Plans” and has espoused the virtues of the 5 “E”s (it has to be said with little effect) ... but without them, Road Safety in Thailand is doomed.

 

1. Education

2. Enforcement

3. Engineering

4. Emergency

5. Evaluation

 

1. Education

This is fairly self-explanatory - people need to be told/shown how to drive and given the “tools” to share the road with other users – This goes way beyond a solitary driving test when people first start driving. UK had several government TV campaigns in the 60s and 70s. Clever well thought out ads with a bit of humour that weren’t condescending and helped to establish the country as a safe place to drive. (Do you remember the elephant in the fog?). Education of drivers continues throughout their driving life.

The first people to educate in Thailand would be the police.

Most people on this thread took ridiculously easy tests – and whilst that may have set them up to start with, subsequently they learned though “experience”, mostly picking up bad habits as it happens. It’s fairly obvious that most of those on this thread need re-educating when it comes to driving and educating road safety.

 

2. Enforcement

Again self-explanatory - but Thailand has the added problem of ingrained corruption, graft and bribery which impedes this, no matter how many laws are passed. The laws need to be reasonable applicable and equitably enforced too. The police and courts need to be trained to deal with it. This requires constitutional reforms in Thailand.

 

3. Engineering: - most critics of (Thai) road safety usually ignore this aspect of road safety. It falls into 2 categories ….

 

A - Vehicle engineering - Safer car design and engineering: - car safety is both “passive” (seat belts, airbags and construction etc.) and “Active” (braking steering, handling, traction control etc.) these two are really interdependent now with so much computerised and hi-tech features on modern vehicles.

·      Anti-locking brakes (ABS)

·      Side impact bars

·      AVCSS – “Advanced Vehicle Control and Safety Systems"

·      Electronic stability control (ESC)

·      Traction control

·      Air-bags

·      More reliable engine, tyres and components

·      Vehicle dynamics in general (they vary from UK, USA, EU and Thailand)

 

Of course, roadworthiness checks are vital - but virtually unenforced in Thailand.

 

  B - Road Engineering -

The design and construction on the roads, bridges, junctions, road surface, camber, drainage etc.

·      The use of barriers and median (e.g. Armco), the removal of roadside hazards - e.g. trees or boulders on the side and centre of roads. The clearing of billboards and vegetation that obscure drivers’ vision

·      Traffic - the use of lines, signs, bollards etc. etc. to dictate how and where the traffic flows and at what speed - virtually non-excitant in Thailand and seldom noticed by drivers in countries that make good use of it.

·      Better infrastructure and engineering

·      Better road surfaces

·      Better signage

·      More forgiving

·      Traffic calming

·      Shared space - keeping various road users apart is key to safety in some situations - if they are separated they can’t collide.

 

Like so many things on the roads in Thailand, the only reason that U-Turns happen is because the roads ALLOW it.... this is a design and engineering problem (and a cost reduction exercise),  not so much a driver problem.

 

4. Emergency

 

- What happens in the event of injury... this is a major factor in who lives or dies.

It has been well documented that the time between accident and getting treatment is crucial in the survival of RTI victims.

Treatment on the scene and reducing the time it takes to get the patient to hospital is vital. Thailand still has NO EFFECTIVE UNIVERSAL EMERGENCY SERVICE!! Ambulances have no standard equipment levels and what comes to your aid at an accident could be anything from a boy-racer pickup truck through van to a partially equipped ambulance. Paramedics are seldom fully trained.

 

5. Evaluation

 

- How do we ascertain if measures are effective and what new ideas can be implemented.

Most governments have agencies of some sort that after engaging any road scheme, whether it is construction or a safety campaign, review in detail every aspect of that project; effects on local population, environment, accident statistics etc. etc. Statistics are gathered and monitored and appropriate action taken. - Whereas Thailand may nominally have such bodies their effectiveness is just about zero. Road safety in Thailand is left largely to ill-thought out, baseless pronouncements made by members of the government with little better to do. Statistics collected in Thailand are incomplete, amateurish and don’t eve correlate with international conventions.

 

[KannikaP]

7 minutes ago, kwilco said:

So long as people see road safety in Thailand as “bad driving” or in racial stereotypes they will never understand the situation nor will their attitudes contribute to improving it.

 

They need to understand how road safety works – it’s a science and like gravity, bacteria or the periodic table, applies universally.

 

The idea behind Road Safety and systems like the safe system is to create a transport system where crashes CAN”T happen – it has been shown that you can’t rely on drivers anywhere in the world to do this.

 

The changes required to bring about an improvement in this dire situation can be categorised in terms of 5 “E”s …

 

The 5 “E”s

The main pillars of the  Safe System can be defines as follows: - The 5 “E”s of road safety.

For over 3 decades Thailand has had various “Road Safety Action Plans” and has espoused the virtues of the 5 “E”s (it has to be said with little effect) ... but without them, Road Safety in Thailand is doomed.

 

1. Education

2. Enforcement

3. Engineering

4. Emergency

5. Evaluation

 

1. Education

This is fairly self-explanatory - people need to be told/shown how to drive and given the “tools” to share the road with other users – This goes way beyond a solitary driving test when people first start driving. UK had several government TV campaigns in the 60s and 70s. Clever well thought out ads with a bit of humour that weren’t condescending and helped to establish the country as a safe place to drive. (Do you remember the elephant in the fog?). Education of drivers continues throughout their driving life.

The first people to educate in Thailand would be the police.

Most people on this thread took ridiculously easy tests – and whilst that may have set them up to start with, subsequently they learned though “experience”, mostly picking up bad habits as it happens. It’s fairly obvious that most of those on this thread need re-educating when it comes to driving and educating road safety.

 

2. Enforcement

Again self-explanatory - but Thailand has the added problem of ingrained corruption, graft and bribery which impedes this, no matter how many laws are passed. The laws need to be reasonable applicable and equitably enforced too. The police and courts need to be trained to deal with it. This requires constitutional reforms in Thailand.

 

3. Engineering: - most critics of (Thai) road safety usually ignore this aspect of road safety. It falls into 2 categories ….

 

A - Vehicle engineering - Safer car design and engineering: - car safety is both “passive” (seat belts, airbags and construction etc.) and “Active” (braking steering, handling, traction control etc.) these two are really interdependent now with so much computerised and hi-tech features on modern vehicles.

·      Anti-locking brakes (ABS)

·      Side impact bars

·      AVCSS – “Advanced Vehicle Control and Safety Systems"

·      Electronic stability control (ESC)

·      Traction control

·      Air-bags

·      More reliable engine, tyres and components

·      Vehicle dynamics in general (they vary from UK, USA, EU and Thailand)

 

Of course, roadworthiness checks are vital - but virtually unenforced in Thailand.

 

  B - Road Engineering -

The design and construction on the roads, bridges, junctions, road surface, camber, drainage etc.

·      The use of barriers and median (e.g. Armco), the removal of roadside hazards - e.g. trees or boulders on the side and centre of roads. The clearing of billboards and vegetation that obscure drivers’ vision

·      Traffic - the use of lines, signs, bollards etc. etc. to dictate how and where the traffic flows and at what speed - virtually non-excitant in Thailand and seldom noticed by drivers in countries that make good use of it.

·      Better infrastructure and engineering

·      Better road surfaces

·      Better signage

·      More forgiving

·      Traffic calming

·      Shared space - keeping various road users apart is key to safety in some situations - if they are separated they can’t collide.

 

Like so many things on the roads in Thailand, the only reason that U-Turns happen is because the roads ALLOW it.... this is a design and engineering problem (and a cost reduction exercise),  not so much a driver problem.

 

4. Emergency

 

- What happens in the event of injury... this is a major factor in who lives or dies.

It has been well documented that the time between accident and getting treatment is crucial in the survival of RTI victims.

Treatment on the scene and reducing the time it takes to get the patient to hospital is vital. Thailand still has NO EFFECTIVE UNIVERSAL EMERGENCY SERVICE!! Ambulances have no standard equipment levels and what comes to your aid at an accident could be anything from a boy-racer pickup truck through van to a partially equipped ambulance. Paramedics are seldom fully trained.

 

5. Evaluation

 

- How do we ascertain if measures are effective and what new ideas can be implemented.

Most governments have agencies of some sort that after engaging any road scheme, whether it is construction or a safety campaign, review in detail every aspect of that project; effects on local population, environment, accident statistics etc. etc. Statistics are gathered and monitored and appropriate action taken. - Whereas Thailand may nominally have such bodies their effectiveness is just about zero. Road safety in Thailand is left largely to ill-thought out, baseless pronouncements made by members of the government with little better to do. Statistics collected in Thailand are incomplete, amateurish and don’t eve correlate with international conventions.

 

Definitely AI.

[kwilco]

2 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

Nowhere else in the world have I seen people consistency take the kinds of chances and risks in the road, that they take here, with their families in the car. Nowhere. When they could have waited four seconds to make the uturn or turn onto the highway, and have a completely clear path, they instead choose to take a tremendous risk. It is beyond comprehension. I see it all the time. My eyes do not lie to me. This rarely ever happens to me in the US.

 

If I decide to cut you off on a highway, when you are going 120kph, and I am making a u-turn, and there was plenty of room behind you for me to make a safe turn, is that an error, if it results in a horrific, fatal accident, and I take the lives of you and your family? Or is that pure recklessness? 

 

Sometimes an error is wearing white after Labor day in New York City. And sometimes an error is Germany invading Russia before the oncoming winter.

 

I don't make the kind of errors that result in bad accidents, much less fatalities. Why? Because I am very, very careful on the road, and very, very respectful of other drivers, their lives, and those of their families. That is a choice that results in NOT making very many terrible mistakes.

 

It most certainly has something to do with the inability to visualize. Neither the future, nor the hypothetical. What will happen in this scenario? What about this? What about that? What are the inherent risks involved in piloting my bike, car or truck onto the safety lane of a major highway, in the wrong direction, with big trucks coming at me at 100kph? Or onto a lane of a major highway, with oncoming traffic going 120kph? Is it worth sacrificing my life, or my ability to walk for the rest of my life? How will my death affect my kids? Hold on, what about the lives of my wife, kids and sister who are in the vehicle with me, and I am responsible for their safety. Wow. That would be a big loss. An entire family. Maybe I should act like an adult, and be prudent and careful.

 

What if I waited four seconds for the highway lane to be completely clear, rather than just barge into it now, and risk everything.

 

I don't think many Thais ever ponder thoughts like this. Why, I can't imagine. It is likely something we will never understand about their nature. I often like to say the best way to understand these differences in attitude and intellect, is to realize Thailand is NOT a foreign country. It is a distant planet.

"Nowhere else in the world have I seen people consistency take the kinds of chances and risks in the road, "

 

THis is a false syllogism and appears in many other posts on this thread......

Your post is making a false syllogism about road safety and it goes like this  …. faulty reasoning in racial stereotyping for road safety

premise 1: some car accidents involve drivers from group x (Thai people).

Premise 2: I have seen or heard of accidents involving drivers from Group X.(Thai people)

Therefore, Thai people are inherently more dangerous on the road.

 

This is Fallacious because it commits several logical fallacies:

Hasty Generalization: It assumes that the few observed cases apply to all Thai drivers –  you don’t take into account the reality of large numbers.

It ignores the overall accident rates across all groups and doesn’t consider the proportion of drivers from Group X in the population.

And something that is so common on this thread - Confirmation Bias: It selectively remembers instances where Thai drivers were involved in accidents while ignoring counterexamples.

 

 

 

[kwilco]

58 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

Can TV/AN go back 20 years?

But it ain't done any good!   5555

do you actually have a contribution to make to this discussion?

[kwilco]

4 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

Its not so far from Songkran and the carnage that ensues

 

Again the media takes over in fact the road deaths per 100k pop are usually slightly lower ver the 2 mani holiday periods - NY and SK

[KannikaP]

8 minutes ago, kwilco said:

do you actually have a contribution to make to this discussion?

Not really, we'll never change their driving habits, not even after 20 years of posts.

[fredwiggy]

44 minutes ago, kwilco said:

"Nowhere else in the world have I seen people consistency take the kinds of chances and risks in the road, "

 

THis is a false syllogism and appears in many other posts on this thread......

Your post is making a false syllogism about road safety and it goes like this  …. faulty reasoning in racial stereotyping for road safety

premise 1: some car accidents involve drivers from group x (Thai people).

Premise 2: I have seen or heard of accidents involving drivers from Group X.(Thai people)

Therefore, Thai people are inherently more dangerous on the road.

 

This is Fallacious because it commits several logical fallacies:

Hasty Generalization: It assumes that the few observed cases apply to all Thai drivers –  you don’t take into account the reality of large numbers.

It ignores the overall accident rates across all groups and doesn’t consider the proportion of drivers from Group X in the population.

And something that is so common on this thread - Confirmation Bias: It selectively remembers instances where Thai drivers were involved in accidents while ignoring counterexamples.

 

 

 

Spidermike is right on in what he said. This is what I also replied to you. I have personally seen locals, every time I'm driving here, with no exceptions, taking risks that I didn't see but rarely when I drove in the states, Mexico, and Canada.

 

I once, just for the hell of it, counted infractions when I drove the 30 kilos to the nearest big city from where I live. This is a two lane each way country road before the town limits. I saw 37 where any Texas policeman would have pulled them over and ticketed them. These included speeding, cutting people off, driving with more than two on a motorbike, no signaling, passing on the right, going into oncoming traffic to pass instead of using the next lane, weaving in and out of traffic, following too close, and not wearing helmets, although in Texas this is legal (isn't here). All were Thai drivers. 

 

You also keep on putting the race card into this, and this has nothing to do with what race or nationality they are. This is observation from someone that puts more miles annually on a vehicle than most other people besides over the road truckers. If I see a foreigner doing things wrong, I think exactly the same. They are unsafe, reckless, incompetent, careless and or selfish drivers. This is something a driver should learn when taught,and tested, before they get a license, and has nothing to do with roads, police, infrastructure, or anything else besides obeying traffic laws and caring about the safety of others and yourself, along with anyone riding with you.

 

People all over drive without licenses, but here they put 8 year olds on scooters, and I see this all the time, both in my village and on roads to town and in town, but I never see these children pulled over. They say 10 children die here daily on the roads, and many of them shouldn't be driving anyway. This is a lack of caring from parents, if they actually have any around, and having less money is not an excuse for not wearing a helmet or driving under age. There are accidents daily worldwide, and bad drivers everywhere, but again, this is what I observe along with many others here, and the stats back this up. Not everyone here that gets into an accident does so in a faulty vehicle, is drunk while driving, or driving on a bad road. There are people with Mercedes that run over people on scooters, pull in front of them, making an illegal or rushed u-turn, bump them and have them fall, or hit them head on. This we see every week here, on the news, and that's only a fraction of what goes on here yearly.

[kwilco]

26 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

I have personally seen locals, every time I'm driving here, with no exceptions, taking risks that I didn't see but rarely when I drove in the states, Mexico, and Canada.

 

almost completely worthless - cognitive bias, personal anecdote and the plural of anecdote is not data

[novacova]

A Story of Dr. Jekill and Mr. Hide
 

some come under a spell of psychosis while driving.

[kwilco]

1 hour ago, fredwiggy said:

Spidermike is right on in what he said. This is what I also replied to you. I have personally seen locals, every time I'm driving here, with no exceptions, taking risks that I didn't see but rarely when I drove in the states, Mexico, and Canada.

 

I once, just for the hell of it, counted infractions when I drove the 30 kilos to the nearest big city from where I live. This is a two lane each way country road before the town limits. I saw 37 where any Texas policeman would have pulled them over and ticketed them. These included speeding, cutting people off, driving with more than two on a motorbike, no signaling, passing on the right, going into oncoming traffic to pass instead of using the next lane, weaving in and out of traffic, following too close, and not wearing helmets, although in Texas this is legal (isn't here). All were Thai drivers. 

 

You also keep on putting the race card into this, and this has nothing to do with what race or nationality they are. This is observation from someone that puts more miles annually on a vehicle than most other people besides over the road truckers. If I see a foreigner doing things wrong, I think exactly the same. They are unsafe, reckless, incompetent, careless and or selfish drivers. This is something a driver should learn when taught,and tested, before they get a license, and has nothing to do with roads, police, infrastructure, or anything else besides obeying traffic laws and caring about the safety of others and yourself, along with anyone riding with you.

 

People all over drive without licenses, but here they put 8 year olds on scooters, and I see this all the time, both in my village and on roads to town and in town, but I never see these children pulled over. They say 10 children die here daily on the roads, and many of them shouldn't be driving anyway. This is a lack of caring from parents, if they actually have any around, and having less money is not an excuse for not wearing a helmet or driving under age. There are accidents daily worldwide, and bad drivers everywhere, but again, this is what I observe along with many others here, and the stats back this up. Not everyone here that gets into an accident does so in a faulty vehicle, is drunk while driving, or driving on a bad road. There are people with Mercedes that run over people on scooters, pull in front of them, making an illegal or rushed u-turn, bump them and have them fall, or hit them head on. This we see every week here, on the news, and that's only a fraction of what goes on here yearly.

 

You have failed to engage with real road safety principles and instead have leant on personal bias, cherry-picked comparisons, and anecdotal observations.

 

You persistently fail to grasp that road safety is a public health issue, not just a matter of "bad drivers." - Systemic improvements save lives, not lectures on “responsibility.”

Blaming Thai drivers is lazy analysis—understanding why accidents happen and how to prevent them is the real solution.

 

You continue to entirely rely on and consequently overvalue  personal observation, which is not a scientific or objective way to analyse road safety.

 

Simply "counting infractions" as a layperson doesn’t provide a meaningful comparison. Road safety analysis requires expertise, context, and official statistics, not casual roadside observations. Without a thorough understanding of Thai traffic laws and road culture, you are not in a position to assess violations accurately.

 

You then resort to selective comparisons and hidden bias you try to compare Thailand to Mexico and Canada in non-scientific terms, but conspicuously avoid mentioning the U.S., despite claiming experience there. Why? Because U.S. road safety statistics don’t support his argument. The U.S. has a higher fatality rate for 4-wheelers than Thailand, meaning the issue is not just "bad drivers" but systemic factors like road design, law enforcement, and emergency response.

 

 

Then you make a classic false appeal to “experience” & mileage

Driving “many miles” doesn’t make someone an expert in road safety. – personal and untutored interpretation of what one sees is not the same as understanding the root causes of road accidents. Road safety experts use structured studies, not anecdotal personal experiences.

 

I’m sad to see you also resorted to unsubstantiated claims & misinterpretation of statistics. The claim that "10 children die daily" is presented without context or source. Are they drivers, passengers, or pedestrians? – you understand the road safety category of “vulnerable road users”?

Are they on rural roads or highways? What is the legal driving age? In the US it used to be about 14 in many states. (In Thailand, 15 for motorcycles. – Anyone under 20 years is considered a child under Thai law.)

 

You need to realise that data without context is meaningless and is often used to sensationalize rather than inform.

 

Race - You are displaying double Standards & Racial Stereotyping

The phrase “race card” is a classic deflection used to dismiss valid concerns about racial bias.

You are blaming Thai drivers collectively while conveniently ignoring similar driving behaviours in other countries.

You mentions Mexico negatively but avoid mentioning the U.S., despite well-documented reckless driving behaviours there.

Your insistence on focusing on "bad Thai drivers" instead of addressing systemic road safety issues is a clear example of racial stereotyping.

 

Misrepresentation of Foreign vs. Local Driving Behaviour

Foreigners who don’t understand Thai road conditions often become a safety hazard themselves. Instead of assuming Thai drivers are inherently worse, a more logical approach would be to examine how Thailand’s road laws, infrastructure, and enforcement differ from other countries.

 

The Real Issue is this -  road safety is systemic, not individual

Your entire argument relies on blaming individual drivers, which is proven ineffective in improving road safety. (just look at the last 20 years in Thailand)

 

The 5 Es of Road Safety (Education, Enforcement, Engineering, Emergency Response, Evaluation) are the key to reducing accidents— it’s not just telling people to “drive better.”

Countries that focused on systemic changes (better infrastructure, stricter licensing, improved enforcement) saw DRAMATIC reductions in road deaths—without needing to blame entire populations.

 

 

[kwilco]

20 minutes ago, novacova said:

 

Totally incorrect observation if you were a road user, you'd soon realise how inaccurate your description is. "Manners" is a word many use without realising it is a cultural construct - Thai culture and manners are different and you need to understand them when you drive.

Kreng Jai is something that baffles foreigners completely and is exercised on roads - I have listened totally bemused to foreigners who claim to understand Kreng Jai and then try to explain it.

 

Are you aware of how kreng Jai can negatively affect driving behaviour, especially in the eyes of foreigners?

[gamb00ler]

23 hours ago, kwilco said:

Many foreigners perceive Thai drivers as incompetent, but the real issue is inadequate enforcement of laws and poor road infrastructure.

Almost all safe driving habits come from common sense.  Better infrastructure and enforcement aren't going to provide much improvement in the incorporation of common sense into Thai driving practices.

 

Every day that I'm on the road, I'll see some driver do something really stupid.  Their actions often will greatly increase their risk and the potential gain is negligible.  Not all of these stupid choices increase the real danger but they certainly increase the stress that the other driver's experience.  Additionally, these poor choices also cause some other drivers to always drive overly slowly and cautiously which will generally add travel time to all trips.

[novacova]

12 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Are you aware of how kreng Jai can negatively affect driving behaviour, especially in the eyes of foreigners?

Emotionally charged mentality undeveloped krengjai drivers are the most dangerous on the road, some people go in a psychotic trance behind the wheel, no matter what their national origin. 

[kwilco]

25 minutes ago, gamb00ler said:

Almost all safe driving habits come from common sense. 

..  every time road safety is discussed it is inevitable that someone will use the term “common sense”… it is a classic misconception

 

The claim that "almost all safe driving habits come from common sense" is fundamentally flawed because common sense is not universal—it is shaped by culture, environment, education, and experience. What seems like "common sense" to one group may be completely foreign to another, and this is especially evident when comparing driving habits in different countries.

 

“Common Sense" is highly cultural, not universal; driving norms differ dramatically between countries, even when road rules appear similar.

What seems like "common sense" to a Western driver—such as strictly following lane discipline, using indicators, or stopping for pedestrians—might not be seen as obvious or necessary in Thailand, where traffic flows in a more flexible, intuitive way. (see my post about rivers in Thai culture)

In some cultures, aggressive defensive driving is considered "smart", while in others, politeness and deference are prioritized over strict rule-following. Most people couldn’t even give a definition of defensive driving at home (I hear a big rush to Google??)

In Thailand, it is "common sense" for motorcycles to weave through traffic and for cars to expect it. In the US, this is seen as reckless and illegal in most places.

 

Safe driving Is a learned skill, not innate "Common Sense" – as I said most people don’t realise the extent to which they are cosstted by their home countries’ safe systems. Safe driving must be taught and reinforced through training, law enforcement, and public awareness campaigns not by constantly blaming inherently “bad drivers”

 

If road safety was simply "common sense," why would road deaths vary drastically between countries with similar vehicles and infrastructure? Or are you going to make another racist assertion about Thai drivers?

Road safety systems and traffic rules exist precisely because humans do not naturally drive safely.

For example, seatbelt laws exist because studies show that people don’t naturally wear seatbelts unless conditioned to do so. If it were "common sense," enforcement wouldn't be necessary.

 

Common sense fails when foreigners apply their “home” common sense to unfamiliar road systems

Foreigners driving in Thailand often struggle not because they lack intelligence, but because Thai road behaviour contradicts their "common sense" expectations.

For instance in Thailand, Merging often happens with different right-of-way rules. (v. priority on the left rule) Many intersections appear to rely on mutual awareness rather than strict signalling but Thai priority rules apply and tinted windows don’t help. (v. Kreng Jai and non-confrontation).Motorcycles behave differently than in Western countries, acting as part of a "fluid traffic ecosystem" rather than strictly following car-like rules. If you want to understand traffic flow in Thailand then you need to understand the rules of traffic on rivers)

Western drivers assume cars will stop at red lights because it's "common sense"—but in some areas of Thailand, it's common for motorcycles and even cars to proceed if the road is clear.the fliter left rule is seldom understood by foreign drivers as they can’t read te signs.

 

If safe D

driving were common sense,Thailand (and Other Countries) Would Have Low Accident Rates? The fact that Thailand has one of the highest road fatality rates in the world suggests that safe driving is not automatic or obvious.Road safety improves in places where it is taught, reinforced, and enforced—not where it's assumed to be "common sense."

Back to the “safe System” - Sweden has one of the lowest road fatality rates because they invest heavily in road safety programs, not because Swedes have more "common sense" than Thais or Americans.

 

Safe roads come don’t come from common sense they come from the 5 Es mentioned before – which have to be adopted in TOTAL