Nightmare at the Prachuap tax office

[Briggsy]

2 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

There's some chatter, just chatter for the present,

Are you able to provide a source for this "chatter"?

[Presnock]

36 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

I know, that's why I said " with your logic" .

 

Meaning that, if he was trying to declare it this year, he should have also tried to declare it for many years previously. 

 

 

The treatt between the US and Thailand was signed in 1997 and article 20 was in effect then as well as now,  the change in targetting remittance for 2024 has no effect on this treaty between two govt and says Social security paid by the US govt can ONLY be taxed by the US govt and not the Thai revenue dept.  Don't you know how to read English?  Don't you  understand what a treaty means?   The treaty says that if one party wishes to depart from the treaty they have to give 6 months prior notice.  I haven't seen anything to that effect.  If you have please advise where that info is at .

 

[Presnock]

59 minutes ago, thesetat said:

Sorry but i may be wrong. But i read today during my google searches that LTR are still required to file tax. I do not have time to find a link but you may want to check to be sure

I 

[Presnock]

1 hour ago, thesetat said:

Sorry but i may be wrong. But i read today during my google searches that LTR are still required to file tax. I do not have time to find a link but you may want to check to be sure

T

 

1 hour ago, thesetat said:

Sorry but i may be wrong. But i read today during my google searches that LTR are still required to file tax. I do not have time to find a link but you may want to check to be sure

 

1 hour ago, thesetat said:

Sorry but i may be wrong. But i read today during my google searches that LTR are still required to file tax. I do not have time to find a link but you may want to check to be sure

Sorry, but you are wrong I listened to an official of the Revenue  Dept who stated that if you have an LTR then your foreign earned income is not assessable so you do not need to get an ID number nor file the tax forms which do not even have a line foe exempted income...only for within Thailand earned funds.  I have checked and double checked plus my income is from a US civil service pension and can ONLY be taxed by the US gpvt.  in the DTA in English easily read.

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, thesetat said:

Sorry but i may be wrong. But i read today during my google searches that LTR are still required to file tax. I do not have time to find a link but you may want to check to be sure

 

If LTR visa holders have local Thai income exceeding the tax reporting threshold then they are required to file a tax return reporting the local invome.

 

I believe only LTR-WP, LTR-WGC, and LTR- WFTP are exempt tax on filing a tax return if no local income and only remitted foreign income.

 

I have seen BoI statements confirming this, and also a user called the Thai RD tax help line and confirmed this as well.

 

Only those initially uncertain and/or scaremongers and/or tax consulting firms (trying to drum up business) have been saying other wise.

[Celsius]

Again, another guy with nothing to do in Thailand goes to the tax office begging to file.

 

I am not leaving Thailand because of Thais. I'm leaving Thailand because of idiot foreigners.

 

Please do file while choking on 180 AQI

 

Chinese and Russians didn't destroy Thailand. You did.

[anrcaccount]

29 minutes ago, Presnock said:

1 hour ago, anrcaccount said:

 

I know, that's why I said " with your logic" .

 

Meaning that, if he was trying to declare it this year, he should have also tried to declare it for many years previously. 

 

 

The treatt between the US and Thailand was signed in 1997 and article 20 was in effect then as well as now,  the change in targetting remittance for 2024 has no effect on this treaty between two govt and says Social security paid by the US govt can ONLY be taxed by the US govt and not the Thai revenue dept.  Don't you know how to read English?  Don't you  understand what a treaty means?   The treaty says that if one party wishes to depart from the treaty they have to give 6 months prior notice.  I haven't seen anything to that effect.  If you have please advise where that info is at .

 

My comment "with your logic" was referring to the original poster (OP)  who decided to try and declare his non assessable income ( US SS)  for some reason. 

 

 

[MalcolmB]

5 hours ago, thesetat said:

But this office has no clue. 

I think clueless to attempt what you did.

What rate are they saying you need to pay them?

[Celsius]

ohhh look

 

 

[NoDisplayName]

47 minutes ago, Celsius said:

I am not leaving Thailand because of Thais. I'm leaving Thailand because of idiot foreigners.

 

Dude!

Canada!

[thesetat]

35 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

My comment "with your logic" was referring to the original poster (OP)  who decided to try and declare his non assessable income ( US SS)  for some reason. 

 

 

I think you can not read. I said I was there and asking questions. I never said i tried to file the taxes. I wanted information to see if I had to file. My logic was sound. However, logic does not work when dealing with Thais. They have no clue what is going on. NO tax return was filed when there. Just unanswered questions. 

[hunkidori]

6 hours ago, thesetat said:

I just returned from the Prachuap Khiri Khan tax office at the Prachuap provincial office. (Not Hua Hin) I had my total amount that was transferred to fill in their forms. As well as proof the the monies were from Social Security office. 

While speaking to the personnel. They asked my wife where did my money come from. My wife showed them my form 1099 that showed how much was paid to me from the SSI. They then told her that all of that income on that piece of paper would be taxed and i would need to pay thousands on it to their office. I tried to explain to them (with wife's help in Thai) that the DTA for SSi to Thailand is not taxable. The tax office asked my wife why i got this money for mean she told them i was disabled. They asked me to show them proof of my disability. The office knew nothing about this and said I would need to pay on that amount and then clarified that disabled in Thailand are given proof of their disability and are only allotted an income of about 100,000 before they paid tax.. To make matters worse, the amount sent to Thailand was more than what i got from my SSDI. Because my children in Thailand also get SSDI and that is sent to my US account and then transferred to Thailand. They said only my income mattered that showed on my 1099 form. They did not care what was sent from the US to Thailand out of my pension. I then began thinking this tax office clearly has no idea about taxation laws and the DTA that applies to SSI pensions. 

I showed them online that SSI from the US to Thailand is not paid as per the DTA. They would not accept this.

( The US-Thailand Tax Agreement:
Under this agreement, US social security income is exempt from Thai taxation. This means if your primary source of income is US social security, you are not required to pay Thai taxes on this income, regardless of how and when it's transferred to your Thai bank account }

Again they wanted me to show proof that I was disabled as well. America does not issue proof for this as far as I know. WE do not carry a card around saying I get SSDI because I am disabled. Only when you require special services are you then given some document that grants permission for those services. (IE disabled parking, ramps, and other things that police will perhaps hassle you over. But not income from direct deposits coming from the SSI office. 

So here I am. Telling you the tax office here in Mueang Prachuap Khiri Khan. Has no clue about how to manage my taxes and are determined to make me pay thousands on my SSI. 

 

Does anyone know if another office (perhaps Hua Hin) is more knowledgeable in this and has an English speaker working there to assist us? 

 

I know if I file through this office, they will do it wrong and make me pay alot for no reason. 

 

Serves you right. No need to go anywhere near a tax office.

 

Another one who seems to be volunteering to pay Thai tax. Yawwwn

[thesetat]

8 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Dude!

Canada!

By the time he gets there is will be the 51st state of America haha...

[ukrules]

6 hours ago, thesetat said:

Perhaps I am wrong.

Yes

[tomazbodner]

Maybe, if you have created a TIN and password, you could use online filling instead.

 

https://efiling.rd.go.th/rd-efiling-web/login

 

OK, so it's all in Thai but you could open it in Chrome and use translation option in there.

[samtam]

4 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

Until then, have your wife call TRD helpline #1161 to get valid information.

 

My Thai assistant tried this number several times today, but could not get through. I think the deluge of uncertainty is, as predicted, overwhelming  TRD. Hitherto, it has been possible to get through quite easily. The consistency of correct replies has however been proving that they are completely inconsistent. Even within Bangkok, even with the same District.

 

It's a complete manure show. Who'd have thunk it? As my assistant said, when they realise that they have begun something universally unworkable, they will probably begin to drop it. But that will have to wait until things pan out, leading up to and beyond 31st March 2025.

 

I am ready to file online; my return is completed and saved. It's all teed up, but I'm waiting to see what may or may not change before 31 March. I'm sure the system will handle a flood of additional filings in a short space of time.😉

[NoDisplayName]

2 minutes ago, samtam said:

I'm waiting to see what may or may not change before 31 March

 

I believe you get an extra eight days to file online, April 8 deadline.

[samtam]

10 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

I believe you get an extra eight days to file online, April 8 deadline.

Quote

....leading up to and beyond 31st March 2025.

I don't think there's any chance they will can this before 2024 taxes are filed, but they will have 9 months to reflect whether the changes of Por161 & 162 have produced the revenue they are hoping to get. An additional 200K low or null payments (from retired expats) are only the small fry in the net. Will they get the big Thai fish? Will the big Thai shark eat the SS TRD before the next tax year?

[Yumthai]

1 hour ago, thesetat said:

However, logic does not work when dealing with Thais. They have no clue what is going on. NO tax return was filed when there. Just unanswered questions. 

After many years spent in Thailand your resilience and willing to try getting these kind of confirmations over and over again force admiration.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 hours ago, Briggsy said:

Are you able to provide a source for this "chatter"?

 

 Asked and answered!  Just one example, from American tax advisor Thomas Carden in a recent interview:

 

 

 

 

[Sheryl]

8 hours ago, thesetat said:

You mean you do not know.. foreigners are required to file tax on money sent to Thailand throughout the 2024 year and to file before March 31 this year? But only if you are in Thailand more than 180 days. This came into effect Jan 1 2025 as far as i know

No, it has always been the case (for assessable income). The only change is that in the  past if the money was remitted in a different year than it was earned, it was exempt. That loophole was closed as of tax year 2024. Nothing else changed. 

 

People having their pensions or other retirement  income  remitted here immeditly as recieved, have always been obligated to file except in cases where the pension is non-assessable under the terms of a DTA.  Very few have ever done so though,  with no consequences that I have heard of. ..and most  would have owed no or little tax if they had filed. 

[matchar]

8 hours ago, thesetat said:

I just returned from the Prachuap Khiri Khan tax office at the Prachuap provincial office. (Not Hua Hin) I had my total amount that was transferred to fill in their forms. As well as proof the the monies were from Social Security office. 

While speaking to the personnel. They asked my wife where did my money come from. My wife showed them my form 1099 that showed how much was paid to me from the SSI. They then told her that all of that income on that piece of paper would be taxed and i would need to pay thousands on it to their office. I tried to explain to them (with wife's help in Thai) that the DTA for SSi to Thailand is not taxable. The tax office asked my wife why i got this money for mean she told them i was disabled. They asked me to show them proof of my disability. The office knew nothing about this and said I would need to pay on that amount and then clarified that disabled in Thailand are given proof of their disability and are only allotted an income of about 100,000 before they paid tax.. To make matters worse, the amount sent to Thailand was more than what i got from my SSDI. Because my children in Thailand also get SSDI and that is sent to my US account and then transferred to Thailand. They said only my income mattered that showed on my 1099 form. They did not care what was sent from the US to Thailand out of my pension. I then began thinking this tax office clearly has no idea about taxation laws and the DTA that applies to SSI pensions. 

I showed them online that SSI from the US to Thailand is not paid as per the DTA. They would not accept this.

( The US-Thailand Tax Agreement:
Under this agreement, US social security income is exempt from Thai taxation. This means if your primary source of income is US social security, you are not required to pay Thai taxes on this income, regardless of how and when it's transferred to your Thai bank account }

Again they wanted me to show proof that I was disabled as well. America does not issue proof for this as far as I know. WE do not carry a card around saying I get SSDI because I am disabled. Only when you require special services are you then given some document that grants permission for those services. (IE disabled parking, ramps, and other things that police will perhaps hassle you over. But not income from direct deposits coming from the SSI office. 

So here I am. Telling you the tax office here in Mueang Prachuap Khiri Khan. Has no clue about how to manage my taxes and are determined to make me pay thousands on my SSI. 

 

Does anyone know if another office (perhaps Hua Hin) is more knowledgeable in this and has an English speaker working there to assist us? 

 

I know if I file through this office, they will do it wrong and make me pay alot for no reason. 

Are you and your children entitled to receive disability payments from the US while living in Thailand?

[MalcolmB]

2 hours ago, thesetat said:

However, logic does not work when dealing with Thais. They have no clue what is going on

Can you speak Thai?
If you can’t then they probably think you have no clue what is going on.

It must be frustrating.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

4 hours ago, Briggsy said:

Are you able to provide a source for this "chatter"?

 

Interesting article I came across from back in 2020 on the same general subject:

 

The Thailand Revenue Department launches a new service to directly share tax information with the Immigration Bureau

December 16, 2020

 

"On November 18, 2020, the Revenue Department launched a new service to directly share the tax information listed below with the Immigration Bureau. The objective is to reduce paperwork and shorten the processing time for visa holders and companies to obtain officially certified copies of tax documents."

 

https://eiglaw.com/the-thailand-revenue-department-launches-a-new-service-to-directly-share-tax-information-with-the-immigration-bureau/

 

I have no idea if their system from back then is still up and running, or what became of it post 2020.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

FWIW, this YT video from a couple days ago by Integrity Legal is saying their contacts suggest there is no plan / intention within Thai Immigration to start making tax status certification a criteria for retirement extension approvals.

 

 

[redwood1]

11 hours ago, thesetat said:

As i know it. You must file tax return for all monies sent to Thailand from abroad. Report income earned abroad as well. Perhaps I am wrong. 

 

Not perhaps your wrong.......Your 100% wrong...And not real smart going to the tax office....

Of course they want to squeeze every last dollar out of you....Why would they want to help you?

[Everyman]

Clearly expats in general need to stay away from TRD and not worry about the tax issue, particularly if their income in exempt.

 

There might be other more complicated scenarios for business owners or something but I’m not speaking to that. 

 

The rumors and hysteria are not doing anyone any good. I’m glad I was in Thailand less than 180 days in 2024, not that it would have mattered. 

[Middle Aged Grouch]

It had been told and warned to us all here.

 

For those who can, start looking at another country in Asia or India more welcoming to foreigners.

 

Stick in Thailand if you have to but never more then 178,5 days because they are capable of making up some other BS if it's 179 days and saying not in their calender or god know what,

 

Thailand does not like us foreigners. It loves only our money and that's it. Time to wake up gentleman. 

 

Pack and leave before the 180th day of stay.  Stick around here only for half time. You'll get a longer way for your bucks.

 

Bye bye Thailand.

[ukrules]

1 hour ago, Middle Aged Grouch said:

Pack and leave before the 180th day of stay.  Stick around here only for half time. You'll get a longer way for your bucks.

 

When counting days make sure to include both the day of arrival and departure and leave a few spare days in there as well just in case something comes up and you need to pop back over to Thailand or get delayed by a few days - assuming multiple trips back and forth throughout each year.

 

What I do is print out a calendar with 6 months on each side of an A4 piece of paper and literally write numbers on them for each country - one calendar per country. Can't go wrong with that approach and it matches my passport exactly. Then just keep it plus travel proofs / passport scans, etc. Be sure to NOT use automatic gates as you don't get a stamp - why complicate things when there's no need.

This is how I'm doing it - spent a good while in Phnom Penh last year, rented a place in Cambodia for a year - this year I'm moving to Siem Reap if I like it - going to check it out on my first trip out of the country.

For me Phnom Penh is a bit on the big side and everything's spread out too much, lots of traffic, etc - now Siem Reap looks a lot more like it and from what I hear it's a lot cheaper than Phnom Penh - which isn't expensive anyway - like half the price of Phnom Penh for houses/apartments. I guess I'll find out when I go there.......but I am definitely going back to Cambodia, and soon. Moving from Phnom Penh could be a bit of an annoyance but not too much - you can simply pay a company to do it all for you which is what I intend to do.

Why Cambodia? Easy Visas - you can get a 1 year visa very easily through an agent ($400-500 depending on the service speed you select), there's a few agents but I used one named 'Call Kim' who can be found on facebook ad mentioned in multiple forums - 100% legit and I've left and returned to the country multiple times using this visa over the last year.

When you enter you get an entry stamp but it doesn't have an exit date. Just tell them you're an investor and considering buying property if asked at immigration and you're in.

If you're over 55 you can get a retirement visa. Simple.
 

[Oliver Holzerfilled]

15 hours ago, thesetat said:

Thanks.. thankfully I did not file while there. I knew immediately they are not only stupid about the new tax laws but they were also stupid trying to ask me why I get disability and how long i have been getting it and where is my proof i am disabled. 

They really have no clue what to do about these new tax laws for foreigners. I will just save my documents and if they come knocking I will have everything handy. 

I think you caused them to lose face asking them tax questions they had no answer for.  Then they retaliated by questioning your disability.