Tax Filing Experience: Jomtien [March-2025]

[bamnutsak]

  On 3/13/2025 at 9:08 AM, khunPer said:

in case being asked about origin of your foreign transfers.

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U.S. Social Security, which qualifies as Non-Assessible Income, at least that is my current understanding.

 

So I have ZERO Accessible Income.

 

Am I required to file? 

 

As I understand the 'rules', since my Accessible Income is ZERO, I do not have to file.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jwest10]

  On 3/13/2025 at 9:05 AM, khunPer said:

Koh Samui, under Surat Thani Province.

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Say no more and obviously they certainly do differ.

 

[cardinalblue]

Until the Thai gov requires reportable tax filing tied to your visa extension, what leverage do they have from denying your existence to live in thailand?

[happydreamer]

  On 3/12/2025 at 5:36 AM, NoDisplayName said:

 

Well, it kinda is.  Folks in this culture think differently.

 

They don't always answer the question asked, but rather give the answer they think you want for an entirely different question.

 

Keep it simple, keep it specific.

 

And even then, standing by while the wifi speaks on the phone and uses circuitous logic to get information is maddening.  Why it requires a 15-minute conversation to ask a simple yes-no question tells me Tolkein must have based Entish on standard Thai.

 

In ancient days, after meeting the Elves, the Ents developed the desire for a spoken language. The language that resulted from this desire was unlike any among the other races of Middle-earth. It was slow, sonorous, agglomerated, repetitive, and extremely long-winded. The lore-masters of the Eldar made no attempt to represent it in writing, as its many vowel-shades and tonal distinctions were far too numerous to do so.

 

 

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YES!!!! This.  It's absolutely maddening when you ask a yes or no question and there's a dance around the topic with still no clear answer given.  This is right around the time my face starts getting a really irritated look that my wife tells me "is not helping your situation".  

Every reason why I have a lawyer who handles anything related to immigration and officials

[Luuk Chaai]

  On 3/11/2025 at 2:33 PM, NoDisplayName said:

 

Local staffers aren't all up to speed.

 

Get a fluent Thai-speaker to call the help line #1161.

 

Explain exactly what you need to know to your helper prior to the call.  Draw pictures with countries and banks with big arrows.

 

Have a list of questions to ask, precisely worded, with a simplified version of the amounts and income types, with a blank line drawn for filling in the given answer.

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Get a fluent Thai-speaker to call the help line #1161.   total waste of time ....

after sitting on the line waiting for 10 minutes .. US citizen "ONLY" sourcing $$$ from  US Social Security"  the rep that answered just kept repeating ..  you brought money in..  you have to pay tax !

 Tax firm advised ..  no tax filing to report ...   do nothing ... just save your statements

a few other members have also reported being lucky enough to be told straight from the boss at a local TRD  nothing to do,,  

[topt]

  On 3/13/2025 at 9:30 AM, bamnutsak said:

Am I required to file? 

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Not sure if that is rhetorical but if not this was my answer to you from another thread 

  Quote

You need to make up your own mind.

However based on your question in another thread that you are only bringing in US SS which is taxable only in the US according to the DTA. If that is the case what is your downside for not filing as nothing is assessable - potentially only 2k fine as per regs as you owe no tax. However no-one so far has reported anyone being fined at any stage. 

If I was you (but see my first sentence) with US SS only I would not even be participating in these discussions.

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[khunPer]

  On 3/13/2025 at 9:30 AM, bamnutsak said:

 

U.S. Social Security, which qualifies as Non-Assessible Income, at least that is my current understanding.

 

So I have ZERO Accessible Income.

 

Am I required to file? 

 

As I understand the 'rules', since my Accessible Income is ZERO, I do not have to file.

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I don't know the DTA between US and Thailand – I'm from Scandinavia, all DTAs are said to be slightly different – you should read it, it might answer your question.

[bamnutsak]

  22 hours ago, khunPer said:

I don't know the DTA between US and Thailand – I'm from Scandinavia, all DTAs are said to be slightly different – you should read it, it might answer your question.

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Fully up to speed on the relevant DTA.

 

I think you missed the point of my question, which is unrelated to DTAs and quite simple...

 

 

If I have ZERO assessable income do I have to file a return?

 

 

[jwest10]

• 
• Advanced Member
• •  6.7k
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Posted April 22, 2024

There has been some debate over several months about who must file a tax return in Thailand, which I think  the TRD makes explicitly clear and is reflected in the Simple Tax Guide. I thought it might be useful however to also provide a quote from PWC on this subject which says:

 

"The following individuals are required to file income tax returns for income earned in the preceding tax year irrespective of whether there is any tax due:

 

• A person who has no spouse and earns income of more than Baht 60,000

• A person who has no spouse and earns income under category (1) (salaries and wages) of more than Baht 120,000

• A person who has a spouse and earns income of more than Baht 120,000

• A person who has a spouse and earns income under category (1) (salaries and wages) of more than Baht 220,000".

[jwest10]

  20 hours ago, jwest10 said:

• 
• Advanced Member
• •  6.7k
•  

• Author

Posted April 22, 2024

There has been some debate over several months about who must file a tax return in Thailand, which I think  the TRD makes explicitly clear and is reflected in the Simple Tax Guide. I thought it might be useful however to also provide a quote from PWC on this subject which says:

 

"The following individuals are required to file income tax returns for income earned in the preceding tax year irrespective of whether there is any tax due:

 

• A person who has no spouse and earns income of more than Baht 60,000

• A person who has no spouse and earns income under category (1) (salaries and wages) of more than Baht 120,000

• A person who has a spouse and earns income of more than Baht 120,000

• A person who has a spouse and earns income under category (1) (salaries and wages) of more than Baht 220,000".

Yet again my local Tax Revenue office stated as your  personal allowances are 500K and higher than my income then no way do you file a tax return and many times too

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[oldcpu]

  20 hours ago, bamnutsak said:

 

Fully up to speed on the relevant DTA.

 

I think you missed the point of my question, which is unrelated to DTAs and quite simple...

 

 

If I have ZERO assessable income do I have to file a return?

 

 

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I think the view of the majority of posters on this forum is no, you do not have to file if your income is not assessable for the tax calculation.  

 

There is a minority who disagree and who are determined to file a tax return even thou their income is not assessable.  

 

And some of the discussion is debating whether DTA exempt,  royal Decree exempt, and ministerial instruction exempt income should be considered assessable despite being tax exempt.

 

So you may not get a 100% agreement answer from all forum members.

[jwest10]

  On 3/13/2025 at 12:22 PM, cardinalblue said:

Until the Thai gov requires reportable tax filing tied to your visa extension, what leverage do they have from denying your existence to live in thailand?

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Not linked at all and got mine renewed very recently!!

[atpeace]

  On 3/13/2025 at 9:08 AM, khunPer said:

If you are living of savings from before 1st January 2024 or Thai savings, where tax is withheld on interest and dividends, you don't need to file a tax return. For foreign savings, you need to be ablt to show proof, in case being asked about origin of your foreign transfers.

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So if you are a tax resident with ample savings earned before 2024 then all this tax anxiety that many have is not a concern.  I personally have enough in my 401k( USA retirements account ) that I can access in two years that would last 30 years as well as other savings on top of that. I assume most tax residents here have at least enough in saving to last another 20 years.  Why all the anxiety? Am I missing something ? 🙂

[Jingthing]

  18 hours ago, atpeace said:

So if you are a tax resident with ample savings earned before 2024 then all this tax anxiety that many have is not a concern.  I personally have enough in my 401k( USA retirements account ) that I can access in two years that would last 30 years as well as other savings on top of that. I assume most tax residents fere have at least enough in saving to last another 20 years.  Why all the anxiety? Am I missing something ? 🙂

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It seems so.

401K withdrawals are accessable (taxable) income if remitted to Thailand.

It's irrelevant what your balance was before 24.

Under the DTA, IRAs trad AND Roth and 401Ks are seen as private pensions in Thailand. NOT SAVINGS and NOT REGULAR INVESTEMENTS (where tax basis profits are relevant).

Not taxable in the US but taxable in Thailand under the DTA which is interesting as 401ks and trad IRAs withdrawals are taxed in the US normally.

Source: Expat Tax Thailand

[Yumthai]

  18 hours ago, atpeace said:

I assume most tax residents here have at least enough in saving to last another 20 years.

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I suggest you get out more and mix yourself with the real world.

[atpeace]

  18 hours ago, Jingthing said:

It seems so.

401K withdrawals are accessible tax income if remitted to Thailand.

It's irrelevant what your balance was before 24.

Under the DTA, IRAs trad AND Roth and 401Ks are seen as private pensions in Thailand. NOT SAVINGS.

Not taxable in the US but taxable in Thailand.

Source: Expat Tax Thailand

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Thanks and that is concerning but is it really an issue.  I wasn't asking about the DTA agreement between Thailand and the USA.  Please show me any documentation that pre 2024 "savings" in private pensions are taxable.  Post 2024 saving would be taxable I assume.

 

Your source is correct the DTA are seen as private pensions but that does not infer that pre 2024 saving in these accounts are taxable.  Just my opinion but makes complete sense to me 🙂

[Jingthing]

  18 hours ago, atpeace said:

Thanks and that is concerning but is it really an issue.  I wasn't asking about the DTA agreement between Thailand and the USA.  Please show me any documentation that pre 2024 "savings" in private pensions are taxable.  Post 2024 saving would be taxable I assume.

 

Your source is correct the DTA are seen as private pensions but that does not infer that pre 2024 saving in these accounts are taxable.  Just my opinion but makes complete sense to me 🙂

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I've heard from multiple tax advisor sources. It's more than an opinion. Also backed up by an interview with a senior TRD official. Just because you want those to be seen as savings by Thailand, doesn't mean they are. Of course you are free to just never report such disbursements, but then you may have some big fun if audited.

Again balances pre 24 in US retirement accounts are NOT SAVINGS.

The savings loophole is about cash money in bank accounts.

I don't like this any more than you do, but I prefer to accept reality.

 

[atpeace]

  18 hours ago, Yumthai said:

I suggest you get out more and mix yourself with the real world.

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Sorry, I don't get out much and live a very simple life.  I was referring to retirees here not the younger crowd.  Are you not retired?

[JimGant]

  20 hours ago, bamnutsak said:

If I have ZERO assessable income do I have to file a return?

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Ph***k no! Why would you think otherwise? Some weirdo on this forum put that thought in your mind?

[atpeace]

  18 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I've heard from multiple tax advisor sources. It's more than an opinion. Also backed up by an interview with a senior TRD official. Just because you want those to be seen as savings by Thailand, doesn't mean they are. Of course you are free to just never report such disbursements, but then you may have some big fun if audited.

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I think your sources are confusing "not covered by a DTA" with taxable.  If it is saving in a bank account it isn't taxable but if in a private  pension it is taxable?  Maybe but doubt it.  One thing that is obvious with expert opinions in regards to Thai taxes is that they know little at this point.  I'll go with common sense until I get better info.  Not trying to be argue and just my opinion 🙂

[Yumthai]

  18 hours ago, atpeace said:

  18 hours ago, Yumthai said:

I suggest you get out more and mix yourself with the real world.

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Sorry, I don't get out much and live a very simple life.  I was referring to retirees here not the younger crowd.  Are you not retired?

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You'll be surprised once again: most of the foreign retired community residing in Thailand does not have 20 years living expense in savings to live off.

[Jingthing]

  18 hours ago, atpeace said:

I think your sources are confusing "not covered by a DTA" with taxable.  If it is saving in a bank account it isn't taxable but if in a private  pension it is taxable?  Maybe but doubt it.  One thing that is obvious with expert opinions in regards to Thai taxes is that they know little at this point.  I'll go with common sense until I get better info.  Not trying to be argue and just my opinion 🙂

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I'm not confused about those things but perhaps you misread what I posted.

Yes, disbursements from private pensions remitted to Thailand are full accessable in Thailand. 

The balance of such accounts (IRAs, 401ks) before 24 completely irrelevant.

Thailand classifies those as private pensions. In the US we would call them retirement accounts.

Do what you want. No skin of my arse.

 

[atpeace]

  18 hours ago, Yumthai said:

You'll be surprised once again: most of the foreign retired community residing in Thailand does not have 20 years living expense in savings to live off.

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That would be stressful 😞  I would find it hard not to worry daily about the day I would be destitute.  To each his own and if some can be happy living on the edge then good for them.

[atpeace]

  18 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I'm not confused about those things but perhaps you misread what I posted.

Yes, disbursements from private pensions remitted to Thailand are full accessable in Thailand. 

The balance of such accounts (IRAs, 401ks) before 24 completely irrelevant.

Thailand classifies those as private pensions. In the US we would call them retirement accounts.

Do what you want. No skin of my arse.

 

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Wow, you always want to argue.  I never mentioned you were confused personally. Have a nice day 🙂

[Yumthai]

  18 hours ago, atpeace said:

That would be stressful 😞  I would find it hard not to worry daily about the day I would be destitute.  To each his own and if some can be happy living on the edge then good for them.

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Well not everyone knows how to plant money trees.

[Jingthing]

  18 hours ago, atpeace said:

Wow, you always want to argue.  I never mentioned you were confused personally. Have a nice day 🙂

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Private pensions are covered by the USA-Thailand DTA.

Accessable in Thailand. Not taxable in the US (you need to to take action to make that happen in the U.S.).

[atpeace]

  17 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Private pensions are covered by the USA-Thailand DTA.

Accessable in Thailand. Not taxable in the US (you need to to take action to make that happen in the U.S.).

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We disagree and I don't think Thailand going after pre 2024 savings.  They like the rest of the world is grappling with tax residents using their country as a tax haven.  Many people are living here in Thailand earning income and not paying taxes to any country.  Many on this forum feel this is justifiable and I'm not one of them. 

 

"If" Thailand does enforce new taxes on expats, it will be an attempt to tax the freeloaders and their own citizens earning income outside of Thailand. I'm not concerned at this point but it is getting interesting 🙂

[JimGant]

  18 hours ago, atpeace said:

Please show me any documentation that pre 2024 "savings" in private pensions are taxable.  Post 2024 saving would be taxable I assume.

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This is an on-going argument -- especially by jingling. Yes, prior to Por 162 -- which exempts all pre 2024 income -- private pension remittances were taxable by Thailand. But Por 162 exempted pre 2024 income, which both traditional and Roth IRAs consist of. Thus, Por 162 'trumps' the DTA language that, otherwise, would make IRA remittances to Thailand taxable. And Por 162 just says "pre 2024 income." It doesn't say that income can only be in a bank account -- which grifters like Expat Tax Thailand expound on.

 

Anyway, I'd certainly be confident in excluding my IRA remittances from assessable income -- you really do have Por 162 at your back. And, as such, why wouldn't you give yourself the benefit of the doubt -- which, in the 1% chance you're ever audited, would certainly exclude you from any tax evasion charge, or criminal charges. No brainer.

 

[atpeace]

  17 hours ago, Yumthai said:

Well not everyone knows how to plant money trees.

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It is a combination of earning money and not spending all of it. .  Do this for a decade or two and you end up in most cases with a big sum. Are you retired?

 

Also creating a life that is sustainable with the money you have saved.  Retiring without ample saving is just a dream.  Some dreams come true but usually not.

[atpeace]

  17 hours ago, JimGant said:

This is an on-going argument -- especially by jingling. Yes, prior to Por 162 -- which exempts all pre 2024 income -- private pension remittances were taxable by Thailand. But Por 162 exempted pre 2024 income, which both traditional and Roth IRAs consist of. Thus, Por 162 'trumps' the DTA language that, otherwise, would make IRA remittances to Thailand taxable. And Por 162 just says "pre 2024 income." It doesn't say that income can only be in a bank account -- which grifters like Expat Tax Thailand expound on.

 

Anyway, I'd certainly be confident in excluding my IRA remittances from assessable income -- you really do have Por 162 at your back. And, as such, why wouldn't you give yourself the benefit of the doubt -- which, in the 1% chance you're ever audited, would certainly exclude you from any tax evasion charge, or criminal charges. No brainer.

 

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Thanks, that is what I was attempting to explain to Jingjing.  He is stuck, possibly correctly, on it isn't covered by a DTA.  IMO, it doesn't matter in the least if it is excluded by Por 162.  This debate is circular and entertaining 🙂