Let's start with the common sense one:

When we’re talking about vaccines, we are talking about taking chemicals, metals, proteins, and more—and injecting them right into the bloodstream—and then acting shocked when people develop serious issues—or worse, death—from such a procedure.  

But, but, science scientism...

 

And now the BS one:

 

In 2013, Congressman Bill Posey asked the CDC on record why they haven’t done a simple vaccinated vs. unvaccinated study. The CDC responded: “It would be unethical to withhold vaccines from children in order to study outcomes.”

 

Case closed...

 

= = =

Inspired by Franklin O'Kanu and his Unorthodoxy website...

 

 

 

Sasha Latypova does not hold a formal medical degree or qualification, her expertise is rooted in business and regulatory aspects rather than clinical medicine.

 

Case closed.

14 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

Let's start with the common sense one:

When we’re talking about vaccines, we are talking about taking chemicals, metals, proteins, and more—and injecting them right into the bloodstream—and then acting shocked when people develop serious issues—or worse, death—from such a procedure.  

But, but, science scientism...

 

And now the BS one:

 

In 2013, Congressman Bill Posey asked the CDC on record why they haven’t done a simple vaccinated vs. unvaccinated study. The CDC responded: “It would be unethical to withhold vaccines from children in order to study outcomes.”

 

Case closed...

 

= = =

Inspired by Franklin O'Kanu and his Unorthodoxy website...

 

 

Yawn.. the same tired nonsense... 

 

Here’s what typically goes into the makeup of a vaccine, with the flu and MMR (measles, mumps, rubella) vaccines as examples:

 

1. The Active Ingredient

This is what triggers the immune response.

Flu Vaccine: Usually contains inactivated (killed) or attenuated (weakened) influenza viruses, or just tiny bits of them (like the haemagglutinin protein).

MMR Vaccine: Contains live attenuated viruses of measles, mumps, and rubella. These are weakened just enough that they don’t cause the disease in healthy people but still kick your immune system into action.

 

2. Stabilisers

These keep the vaccine potent during storage and transport.

Often things like gelatin (yes, from pigs), sorbitol, or sucrose.

MMR, for example, contains gelatin and sorbitol as stabilisers.

 

3. Preservatives

Used to prevent contamination, especially in multi-dose vials.

Older flu vaccines might contain thimerosal (a mercury-based preservative), though most single-dose flu shots today are thimerosal-free.

MMR doesn’t need preservatives because it’s supplied in single-dose vials and mixed fresh.

 

4. Adjuvants (mainly in flu, not in MMR)

Help boost the immune response.

Some flu vaccines (like the Fluad brand for older adults) use MF59, an oil-in-water emulsion of squalene.

MMR doesn’t contain adjuvants.

 

5. Residuals from Manufacturing

Tiny traces of things used during production, but cleaned out as much as possible.

Egg proteins (especially in flu vaccines made in eggs),

Neomycin (an antibiotic used in MMR to prevent bacterial contamination),

Cell culture material like chick embryo cells or human diploid cells (especially for MMR).

 

 

 

As for  Chemicals, Metals, Proteins:

 

Vaccines can definitely contain chemicals, metals, and proteins… Oh, sounds terrible !!!

But what are they really ???

 

Chemicals

These aren't your average household cleaners - but carefully chosen bits to keep the vaccine safe and stable.

Formaldehyde – Used to inactivate viruses or detoxify toxins. It’s in tiny trace amounts, and your body naturally has more formaldehyde in your blood than a vaccine ever would.

Sodium chloride (salt) – To balance pH and match the body’s natural fluids.

Sodium phosphate / Potassium phosphate – Buffers to keep the vaccine stable.

Polysorbate 80 – Emulsifier to keep ingredients blended (found in some flu vaccines).

Sucrose or lactose – Sugar, baby. Used to stabilise.

 

Proteins

Your immune system’s sexy little nemesis.

Viral proteins – Flu vaccines often include purified surface proteins like haemagglutinin (HA).

Egg proteins – Residuals if the vaccine is grown in eggs.

Gelatin (a protein) – Used as a stabiliser, especially in MMR.

 

Metals

Aluminium salts (adjuvants) – Found in some flu vaccines, not MMR. They stimulate a stronger immune response. You actually get more aluminium from food and water than from a vaccine.

Thimerosal (ethylmercury) – Only in some multi-dose flu vials (not in MMR). It's a preservative and has been mostly phased out due to public concern, even though studies show it's safe in those tiny amounts.

3 minutes ago, Will B Good said:

Sasha Latypova does not hold a formal medical degree or qualification, her expertise is rooted in business and regulatory aspects rather than clinical medicine.

 

Case closed.

So what you are actually saying is that you need a formal medical degree or qualification, to make common sense statements. 

Another BS one...

11 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

When we’re talking about vaccines, we are talking about taking chemicals, metals, proteins, and more—and injecting them right into the bloodstream—and then acting shocked when people develop serious issues—or worse, death—from such a procedure.  

But, but, science scientism...

 

And NO !!!... Vaccines are not injected directly into bloodstream... 

 

They are Injected: 

Intramuscular (IM) – Most common

Straight into the muscle, typically your deltoid (upper arm) or thigh.

Why? Muscles have a rich blood supply, allowing for slow, controlled absorption of the vaccine into the bloodstream—not an overwhelming flood.

Flu shots and MMR (for older children and adults) are often given this way.

 

Subcutaneous (SC) – Under the skin

Just into the fatty layer under your skin, like a gentle whisper.

MMR is often given subcutaneously in young children.

Absorbed more slowly than intramuscular shots.

 

Intradermal (ID) – Just below the skin’s surface

A very shallow injection, used for things like TB tests or some special flu vaccines.

 

 

 

As usual - your Anti-vax posts are misinforming, alarmist and lack any truth.

5 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

And NO !!!... Vaccines are not injected directly into bloodstream... 

 

They are Injected: 

Intramuscular (IM) – Most common

Straight into the muscle, typically your deltoid (upper arm) or thigh.

Why? Muscles have a rich blood supply, allowing for slow, controlled absorption of the vaccine into the bloodstream—not an overwhelming flood.

Flu shots and MMR (for older children and adults) are often given this way.

 

Subcutaneous (SC) – Under the skin

Just into the fatty layer under your skin, like a gentle whisper.

MMR is often given subcutaneously in young children.

Absorbed more slowly than intramuscular shots.

 

Intradermal (ID) – Just below the skin’s surface

A very shallow injection, used for things like TB tests or some special flu vaccines.

 

 

 

As usual - your Anti-vax posts are misinforming, alarmist and lack any truth.

 

That is what you get when a medical unqualified business manager comments as opposed to a real professional.

5 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

And NO !!!... Vaccines are not injected directly into bloodstream... 

 

They are Injected: 

Intramuscular (IM) – Most common

Straight into the muscle, typically your deltoid (upper arm) or thigh.

Why? Muscles have a rich blood supply, allowing for slow, controlled absorption of the vaccine into the bloodstream—not an overwhelming flood.

Flu shots and MMR (for older children and adults) are often given this way.

 

Subcutaneous (SC) – Under the skin

Just into the fatty layer under your skin, like a gentle whisper.

MMR is often given subcutaneously in young children.

Absorbed more slowly than intramuscular shots.

 

Intradermal (ID) – Just below the skin’s surface

A very shallow injection, used for things like TB tests or some special flu vaccines.

 

 

 

As usual - your Anti-vax posts are misinforming, alarmist and lack any truth.

 

The point is that injecting a substance with a needle by-passes your natural outer protective body-mechanisms.

Why keep posting these things anyway? People have already gotten the vaccines and boosters. Putting fear into their thinking doesn't help but add stress. We can't undo the vaccines now but have to deal with whatever happens. What can a person do besides take good care of themselves, which many don't do anyway, so adding to their already stressed out bodies won't help them. When there is definite proof that a vaccine has directly hurt someone that wasn't affected by a pre-existing condition already and there is a way to alleviate their damage from that vaccine, then they'll do whatever they have to.

1 minute ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

The point is that injecting a substance with a needle by-passes your natural outer protective body-mechanisms.

I'm thinking what many people eat does far more damage than a vaccine could, which could actually save them. People from the blue zones live the longest and they're getting vaccines at all ages. We aren't hearing that any of them have been affected by the Covid or any other vaccines.

2 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

Why keep posting these things anyway? People have already gotten the vaccines and boosters. Putting fear into their thinking doesn't help but add stress. We can't undo the vaccines now but have to deal with whatever happens. What can a person do besides take good care of themselves, which many don't do anyway, so adding to their already stressed out bodies won't help them. When there is definite proof that a vaccine has directly hurt someone that wasn't affected by a pre-existing condition already and there is a way to alleviate their damage from that vaccine, then they'll do whatever they have to.

Why keep posting these things anyway?

Amongst others because the CDC is STILL recommending Covid-19 shots for infants...

1 minute ago, Red Phoenix said:

Why keep posting these things anyway?

Amongst others because the CDC is STILL recommending Covid-19 shots for infants...

 

So are you anti-vaccination full stop... ALL vaccines ?

Or just anti-covid vaccines ?

 

What about antibiotics ?...  

... IV antibiotics ??? They're straight into a our bloodstream... 

 

If you are Anti-Vax, why not for the same reasons are you not anti-antibiotics ?

 

 

1 minute ago, Red Phoenix said:

Why keep posting these things anyway?

Amongst others because the CDC is STILL recommending Covid-19 shots for infants...

People need hard evidence and want to protect their young. I don't think infants need the Covid shot as this has already been told since the beginning. Some people get flu vaccines every year and might not need them. People die all the time un vaccinated. No matter what anyone says, others will say different, and people will believe what they want. Again, when hard evidence is brought out that a vaccine has definitely caused a condition to more than a few, who are healthy, then others might believe. Now it's just fear mongering.

21 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

And NO !!!... Vaccines are not injected directly into bloodstream... 

 

They are Injected: 

Intramuscular (IM) – Most common

Straight into the muscle, typically your deltoid (upper arm) or thigh.

Why? Muscles have a rich blood supply, allowing for slow, controlled absorption of the vaccine into the bloodstream—not an overwhelming flood.

Flu shots and MMR (for older children and adults) are often given this way.

 

 

And No !!!...  you just went and did what those so called "fact checkers" do

 

not injected directly in the blood stream....  but then in the same breath

 

"Muscles have a rich blood supply, allowing for slow, controlled absorption of the vaccine into the bloodstream" 

and so the vaccine goes into the bloodstream or not ? 

 

It should not be directly injected into a vein  and there was  a bit of conversation about jabbing then pulling the plunger back to see if any blood is drawn before shooting the concoction in and whether this longstanding practice was adhered to during the rush to jab the whole planet  and perhaps that accounts for some of the vaccine injuries ?

 

15 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

People die all the time un vaccinated.

 

People die all the time.

26 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

People have already gotten the vaccines and boosters. Putting fear into their thinking doesn't help but add stress.

 

Many got the "vaccines" and boosters  due to  fear and coercion  in the first place.

Food for thought - its clear you have one singular goal to spread misinformation on vaccines without which its highly implausible you'd still be alive (i.e. at 60 years old).... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

21 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

So are you anti-vaccination full stop... ALL vaccines ?

Or just anti-covid vaccines ?

 

What about antibiotics ?...  

... IV antibiotics ??? They're straight into a our bloodstream... 

 

If you are Anti-Vax, why not for the same reasons are you not anti-antibiotics ?

 

Yes, I shun ALL vaccines as well as anti-biotics.  Can't remember when I had the last one of either, but must be at least 30 years.

Note that I will not mandate my convictions onto others, only providing them with food for thought so they can make up their own mind. 

4 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Food for thought - its clear you have one singular goal to spread misinformation on vaccines without which its highly implausible you'd still be alive (i.e. at 60 years old).... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

67 years young, never sick and going strong...

7 minutes ago, johng said:

And No !!!...  you just went and did what those so called "fact checkers" do

 

not injected directly in the blood stream....  but then in the same breath

 

"Muscles have a rich blood supply, allowing for slow, controlled absorption of the vaccine into the bloodstream" 

and so the vaccine goes into the bloodstream or not ? 

 

No... vaccines do not go 'right into' the bloodstream...    with the intramuscular injections they go into the muscles and are then 'dispersed through absorption into the bloodstream' which is different... 

 

Many of the things we consume get into our blood stream...  there's nothing alarming about that.

 

Carbohydrates >>

Glucose (sugar)

>> Gets into our bloodstream and fuels energy

Proteins

>> Amino acids

>> Gets into our bloodstream and builds tissues

Fats >>

Fatty acids + glycerol

>> Gets into our bloodstream eventually (via lymph)

Vitamins >>

Individual vitamins

>> Gets into our bloodstream

Minerals >>

Ions (like iron, calcium)

>> Gets into our bloodstrea and

 

 

7 minutes ago, johng said:

It should not be directly injected into a vein  and there was  a bit of conversation about jabbing then pulling the plunger back to see if any blood is drawn before shooting the concoction in and whether this longstanding practice was adhered to during the rush to jab the whole planet  and perhaps that accounts for some of the vaccine injuries ?

 

Erm.. no...   thats Heroin   !!!

2 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

67 years young, never sick and going strong...

 

Because you had vaccines !!!!   -    You have vaccines to thank for still being here.

 

Statistically speaking, the likelihood of someone reaching 60 years old without any vaccinations is extremely low - especially if they were born and raised in a country with established public health systems.

 

Why  ??? 

 

1. Childhood Mortality

Before vaccines, many childhood diseases like measles, diphtheria, whooping cough, polio, smallpox, and tetanus were deadly or caused severe long-term disability. For example:

Smallpox killed approximately 300 million people in the 20th century alone before the vaccine was introduced.

Measles killed millions worldwide annually before vaccines were introduced in the 1960s.

Without vaccines, the likelihood of surviving childhood would drastically drop due to these preventable diseases.

 

2. Epidemics and Outbreaks

Communicable diseases would spread wildly in the absence of vaccines, causing major pandemics and outbreaks with much higher mortality rates. The Spanish flu of 1918, for example, killed an estimated 50 million people globally. Without modern vaccines, society would be regularly crippled by these kinds of deadly diseases.

 

3. Survival of the Fittest?

In the absence of vaccines, populations would be much smaller because of constant waves of disease, and infant mortality rates would be significantly higher. Without vaccines, herd immunity wouldn’t exist, leaving entire populations vulnerable to outbreaks.

A child born without vaccines might not make it past childhood because of diseases like measles or whooping cough.

Even if they survived childhood, diseases like tuberculosis, pneumonia, and typhoid fever would still claim lives more regularly.

 

4. Increased Pressure on Healthcare Systems

Healthcare systems would have to rely heavily on treating diseases as they occur, without the preventive tools that vaccines provide. Hospitals and doctors would face constant overload, and many diseases that are now preventable or treatable would lead to high mortality rates, especially in older populations.

 

5. The Role of Natural Immunity

In the absence of vaccines, individuals would rely on natural immunity — meaning they would have to be exposed to the diseases and survive them to gain immunity. However, many people would not survive these diseases, and even if they did, they might suffer lifelong complications.

 

 

In short, without vaccines:

Childhood mortality rates would skyrocket, and many individuals would not survive past infancy or early childhood.

Outbreaks of diseases would devastate populations, with many not living to old age.

By 60, most people would have had to survive multiple life-threatening illnesses, and many would not have made it that far.

 

In a world without vaccines, reaching 60 years old would be incredibly rare, if not almost impossible, because of the high risk of fatal infectious diseases that modern vaccines have largely wiped out.

2 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

No... vaccines do not go 'right into' the bloodstream...    with the intramuscular injections they go into the muscles and are then 'dispersed through absorption into the bloodstream' which is different... 

 

Ahh so "different"   not directly into the bloodstream but into the bloodstream in a different manner.....   so into the bloodstream or not ????

2 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Because you had vaccines !!!!   -    You have vaccines to thank for still being here.

 

Statistically speaking, the likelihood of someone reaching 60 years old without any vaccinations is extremely low - especially if they were born and raised in a country with established public health systems.

 

Why  ??? 

 

1. Childhood Mortality

Before vaccines, many childhood diseases like measles, diphtheria, whooping cough, polio, smallpox, and tetanus were deadly or caused severe long-term disability. For example:

Smallpox killed approximately 300 million people in the 20th century alone before the vaccine was introduced.

Measles killed millions worldwide annually before vaccines were introduced in the 1960s.

Without vaccines, the likelihood of surviving childhood would drastically drop due to these preventable diseases.

 

2. Epidemics and Outbreaks

Communicable diseases would spread wildly in the absence of vaccines, causing major pandemics and outbreaks with much higher mortality rates. The Spanish flu of 1918, for example, killed an estimated 50 million people globally. Without modern vaccines, society would be regularly crippled by these kinds of deadly diseases.

 

3. Survival of the Fittest?

In the absence of vaccines, populations would be much smaller because of constant waves of disease, and infant mortality rates would be significantly higher. Without vaccines, herd immunity wouldn’t exist, leaving entire populations vulnerable to outbreaks.

A child born without vaccines might not make it past childhood because of diseases like measles or whooping cough.

Even if they survived childhood, diseases like tuberculosis, pneumonia, and typhoid fever would still claim lives more regularly.

 

4. Increased Pressure on Healthcare Systems

Healthcare systems would have to rely heavily on treating diseases as they occur, without the preventive tools that vaccines provide. Hospitals and doctors would face constant overload, and many diseases that are now preventable or treatable would lead to high mortality rates, especially in older populations.

 

5. The Role of Natural Immunity

In the absence of vaccines, individuals would rely on natural immunity — meaning they would have to be exposed to the diseases and survive them to gain immunity. However, many people would not survive these diseases, and even if they did, they might suffer lifelong complications.

 

 

In short, without vaccines:

Childhood mortality rates would skyrocket, and many individuals would not survive past infancy or early childhood.

Outbreaks of diseases would devastate populations, with many not living to old age.

By 60, most people would have had to survive multiple life-threatening illnesses, and many would not have made it that far.

 

In a world without vaccines, reaching 60 years old would be incredibly rare, if not almost impossible, because of the high risk of fatal infectious diseases that modern vaccines have largely wiped out.

 

My 3 children are not vaccinated (not even for the mandatory ones).  They are now 3 very healthy adults, 34, 32 and 26 years of age. 

13 minutes ago, johng said:

Ahh so "different"   not directly into the bloodstream but into the bloodstream in a different manner.....   so into the bloodstream or not ????

 

Yes it is 'so different'...  Very different infact..... Its still not directly into the bloodstream... 

 

Things you eat end up in your blood stream - they are not direct - its the same with vaccines, they 'end up' in the blood stream, thats not direct.

 

Vaccines aren’t injected directly into the bloodstream because they need to be absorbed slowly by the body to properly stimulate the immune system. Injecting into muscle or just under the skin allows immune cells to recognise and respond to the vaccine components in a controlled way, mimicking natural infection without overwhelming the body.

 

A direct bloodstream injection would bypass this process, potentially cause harmful reactions, and be far less effective at building long-term immunity.

 

 

This is precisely the problem with indulging these kinds of debates - engaging with the ill-informed doesn't elevate the conversation; it just drags the rest of us down into the mire of their ignorance.

 

I'm now not debating ideas here, I'm correcting nonsense masquerading as insight.

At a certain point, it stops being a discussion and becomes an exercise in futility. 

8 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

My 3 children are not vaccinated (not even for the mandatory ones).  They are now 3 very healthy adults, 34, 32 and 26 years of age. 

 

And I sincerely hope they stay that way... 

 

They’re protected - for now - not because of some miraculous immune system or divine luck, but because everyone else around them is vaccinated. It’s called herd immunity, and it’s the invisible shield that protects those who piggyback off the responsibility of others while sneering at the very science that keeps them safe.

 

Your anecdotal argument does nothing but highlight a fundamental misunderstanding of how - and why - mass vaccination works.

 

It’s not about individual anecdotes; it’s about public health on a scale that spans continents and generations.

 

The recent spike in measles cases in the U.S. is a direct result of declining vaccination rates - driven by misinformation, mistrust, and social media-fuelled ignorance. COVID-19 didn’t help either; it disrupted routine immunisation schedules, widening the cracks in our collective defences.

 

And, unsurprisingly, the majority of those measles cases? Found in the unvaccinated. Herd immunity doesn’t collapse overnight - but chip away at it long enough with baseless fear and conspiratorial thinking, and the consequences are entirely predictable.

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

Thimerosal (ethylmercury) – Only in some multi-dose flu vials (not in MMR). It's a preservative and has been mostly phased out due to public concern, even though studies show it's safe in those tiny amounts.

Not safe in any amounts.

Whack-job anti-vaxer on a post-Songkran rampage...  Yeesh!!!

 

And an OP post quoting a guy who has no qualifications as a doctor, public health expert, vaccine researcher, etc etc...  Just another whack-job guy on the internet with his own anti-vax Substack rantings.

 

This kind of stuff is SO far "Off the Beaten Track" that once you go down that deep dark hole, there's no coming back from it....

 

6 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

They’re protected - for now - not because of some miraculous immune system or divine luck, but because everyone else around them is vaccinated. It’s called herd immunity, and it’s the invisible shield that protects those who piggyback off the responsibility of others while sneering at the very science that keeps them safe.

This is monumental unscientific hog-wash.

 

Where on earth did you pick up this nonsense from Richard?

Just now, Stiddle Mump said:

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

Thimerosal (ethylmercury) – Only in some multi-dose flu vials (not in MMR). It's a preservative and has been mostly phased out due to public concern, even though studies show it's safe in those tiny amounts.

Not safe in any amounts.

 

Even though its been phased out due to public concern...  thimerosal (ethylmercury) in vaccines has been extensively studied and is considered safe in the low doses used.

 

It was historically used as a preservative in multi-dose vials of vaccines to prevent bacterial and fungal contamination. Most vaccines today, especially those for children, are thimerosal-free or contain only trace amounts.

 

Key Points on Thimerosal Safety:

Thimerosal contains ethylmercury, which is different from methylmercury (the toxic type found in some fish). Ethylmercury is cleared from the body much more quickly.

 

Numerous scientific studies and global health organisations (CDC, WHO, FDA, etc.) have found no evidence linking thimerosal to autism or other significant health risks.

 

It was removed or reduced in vaccines in the early 2000s as a precaution, not due to any proven danger.

 

 

Studies:

 

https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article-abstract/112/5/1039/28714/Safety-of-Thimerosal-Containing-Vaccines-A-Two?redirectedFrom=PDF%3Fautologincheck%3Dredirected&utm_source=chatgpt.com?autologincheck=redirected

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/9028897_Safety_of_Thimerosal-Containing_Vaccines_A_Two-Phased_Study_of_Computerized_Health_Maintenance_Organization_Databases

 

 

9 minutes ago, Stiddle Mump said:

This is monumental unscientific hog-wash.

 

Where on earth did you pick up this nonsense from Richard?

 

 

Scientific studies and epidemiological data support the concept that unvaccinated individuals, including those aged 30 to 50, have historically benefited from herd immunity in populations with high vaccination coverage. However, this protection is contingent upon maintaining high levels of immunisation within the community.

 

Herd Immunity and Measles Control

A study published in The Lancet Infectious Diseases highlights the risks associated with vaccine refusal near the herd immunity threshold. It emphasises that even small declines in vaccination coverage can lead to outbreaks, particularly affecting unvaccinated individuals who rely on herd immunity for protection. PubMed

 

Impact of Declining Vaccination Rates

Research analysing measles vaccination coverage in the European Union during 2015–2017 found that most countries had coverage below the 95% threshold necessary for herd immunity. This shortfall contributed to measles outbreaks in 2017–2018, with unvaccinated individuals being disproportionately affected. PubMed

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31289949/

 

Societal Costs of Vaccine Refusal

A modelling study published in Vaccine assessed the societal costs associated with vaccine refusal, using measles as a case study. The findings indicate that unvaccinated individuals benefit from the herd immunity provided by vaccinated populations. However, their refusal to vaccinate increases the disease burden and associated costs for society.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264410X23005893?

 

 

And thats as much as I'll respond to your nonsense Stiddle - Getting dragged down to the level of someone who believes the world is flat and doesn't believe viruses even exist is just a little too much...