Nok Air

[likite]

Arrived from Hua Hin and bought 2 tickets from Nok Air at their fly and go booth Don Muang to Chiang mai. Short on cash I paid by credit card - total 3,700 baht.

Slip comes over the total converted and charged in £ at an exchange rate 2 baht less than I could have got from the exchange booth in the airport. Not a good prectise no mention of this when buying and the Airline get a bit more profit. I don't think this happens when you book online, so why do it at the airport?

Some more sharp practise which is only going to affect tourists and farangs.

Next time it will be cash and probably won't use Nok Air.

[Carmine6]

Arrived from Hua Hin and bought 2 tickets from Nok Air at their fly and go booth Don Muang to Chiang mai. Short on cash I paid by credit card - total 3,700 baht.

Slip comes over the total converted and charged in £ at an exchange rate 2 baht less than I could have got from the exchange booth in the airport. Not a good prectise no mention of this when buying and the Airline get a bit more profit. I don't think this happens when you book online, so why do it at the airport?

Some more sharp practise which is only going to affect tourists and farangs.

Next time it will be cash and probably won't use Nok Air.

So they did the conversion and then charged your credit card company in £?

[Farma]

This isn’t the first time. There’s been threads’ mentioning a payment system also used in shops where the buyer loses out in the exchange rates like you did.

A big hardware shop in Ubon tried the same with me.

It’s worth checking the slip and insisting the charge is in Thai Baht.

[rak sa_ngop]

This isn’t the first time. There’s been threads’ mentioning a payment system also used in shops where the buyer loses out in the exchange rates like you did.

A big hardware shop in Ubon tried the same with me.

It’s worth checking the slip and insisting the charge is in Thai Baht.

Even the BNH hospital in Bangkok did this to me. Just ask them to cancel the first transaction by getting the exact amount recredited to you and make a new transaction in Thai baht. Once more people start doing this maybe they will soon realise customers should be asked first if they want to be billed in THB or the currency of the card.

Maybe in other countries the difference in charge methods results in a marginal price difference but here in offshore/onshore Thailand there is a significant difference. Also don't forget that card service charges will still be applied on top of the foreign currency amount to arrive at the final credit amount.

Edited August 10, 2007 by rak sa_ngop

[likite]

QUOTE(likite @ 2007-08-09 17:44:44) *

Arrived from Hua Hin and bought 2 tickets from Nok Air at their fly and go booth Don Muang to Chiang mai. Short on cash I paid by credit card - total 3,700 baht.

Slip comes over the total converted and charged in £ at an exchange rate 2 baht less than I could have got from the exchange booth in the airport. Not a good prectise no mention of this when buying and the Airline get a bit more profit. I don't think this happens when you book online, so why do it at the airport?

Some more sharp practise which is only going to affect tourists and farangs.

Next time it will be cash and probably won't use Nok Air.

So they did the conversion and then charged your credit card company in £?

The slip was charged in £ sterling.

Even the BNH hospital in Bangkok did this to me. Just ask them to cancel the first transaction by getting the exact amount recredited to you and make a new transaction in Thai baht. Once more people start doing this maybe they will soon realise customers should be asked first if they want to be billed in THB or the currency of the card.

I agree you should be asked in the same way as if you see a sign '2% charge for credit cards' then you have the choice.

I couldn't at the time be hasseled to argue as we wanted to get the flight home, but others should be aware of this sharp dealing especially if they come on holiday. It's not a good advert fo Thailand especially tourists.

I would like to hear Nok Airs view on this and I may drop them an email but I don't hold out much hope they would reply.

[Filer]

This system appears to be creeping in all over the world. The retailers like it because it allows them to make a small margin on the exchange transaction - to offset their commission loss to the card company.

I agree it's deplorable, and sharp practice if the retailer doesn't offer you the choice.

However, in Thailand, with the onshore and offshore rates, it can in fact be to your advantage to go with the local conversion and have your foreign credit card billed directly with your home currency.

Let me give you an example:

On 23 Feb this year I had to pay a big hotel bill in Bangkok, baht 102,300. I was given the choice of billing in baht or via an on-the-spot conversion to my card currency (pounds) at 67.17 baht to 1 pound, slightly less than the then current banks' exchange rate of about 68.5. I accepted the conversion which resulted in £1,523 ( no additional charges). This amount was exactly what was billed to my pound based credit card account at home - no extra charges.

If I'd allowed the 102,300 baht to be charged in baht to my credit card, it would have been converted at home at the offshore rate, which I think was was then about 62 to £1 (making £1,650), plus a foreign currency surcharge, and I would have ended up with a debit approaching £1,700.

Unless I've got something wrong here, it's BETTER to accept the local conversion in Thailand, even if the rate is a little worse than the banks', because the alternative is to have the conversion at the very unfavourable offshore rate - so long as we continue with the dual exchange rates.

Of course, this works in the opposite way round if you are talking about transferring credit amounts out of the country.

Remember: cash or credits coming into TH, debits going out of TH - do conversion in Thailand

cash or credits going out of TH, debits coming into TH - do conversion offshore

[likite]

This system appears to be creeping in all over the world. The retailers like it because it allows them to make a small margin on the exchange transaction - to offset their commission loss to the card company.

I agree it's deplorable, and sharp practice if the retailer doesn't offer you the choice.

However, in Thailand, with the onshore and offshore rates, it can in fact be to your advantage to go with the local conversion and have your foreign credit card billed directly with your home currency.

Let me give you an example:

On 23 Feb this year I had to pay a big hotel bill in Bangkok, baht 102,300. I was given the choice of billing in baht or via an on-the-spot conversion to my card currency (pounds) at 67.17 baht to 1 pound, slightly less than the then current banks' exchange rate of about 68.5. I accepted the conversion which resulted in £1,523 ( no additional charges). This amount was exactly what was billed to my pound based credit card account at home - no extra charges.

If I'd allowed the 102,300 baht to be charged in baht to my credit card, it would have been converted at home at the offshore rate, which I think was was then about 62 to £1 (making £1,650), plus a foreign currency surcharge, and I would have ended up with a debit approaching £1,700.

Unless I've got something wrong here, it's BETTER to accept the local conversion in Thailand, even if the rate is a little worse than the banks', because the alternative is to have the conversion at the very unfavourable offshore rate - so long as we continue with the dual exchange rates.

Of course, this works in the opposite way round if you are talking about transferring credit amounts out of the country.

Remember: cash or credits coming into TH, debits going out of TH - do conversion in Thailand

cash or credits going out of TH, debits coming into TH - do conversion offshore

I've just done some maths and I was charged 3% for using my credit card as opposed to using cash. No signs = no choice unless you know whats happening and then do you want to start a discussion on exchange rates at a flight booth with the liklihood of getting nowhere?

Nok Air should get their act together to show the true costs involved.

[Spee]

Next time it will be cash and probably won't use Nok Air.

IMHO, this occurence is not specific to this vendor, and may not be their fault at all. Vendors aren't able to take credit cards just because they want to. They have to register with the big credit card companies (and/or banks), play by their rules, and pay fees to use their services. Vendors like Nok Air may well just be passing this added expense on to the consumer, just like many other businesses do.

As some others have suggested, credit card issuers are charging a percentage for what they call "foreign purchases." AmEx charges 2% for foreign purchases. My stateside bank atm card is also a MC debit card. A couple months ago, they started charging me a percentage not only for foreign purchases, but also atm withdrawls. Eff that!!

It is definitely a <deleted>' racket. When my bank pulled this stunt, I called a senior manager and gave him about 30 minute worth of verbal grief about charging me for a service that I already pay for. Needless to say, they won't have my business for much longer as I'm switching to a bank that doesn't charge for international atm withdrawls.

Might as well face it. They have us by the short 'n curlies and there isn't much we can do about it. IMHO, we can only minimize the level of pain and refuse to do business where possible. Buy online not only as much as possible, but where plastic issuers won't treat it as a foreign purchase. When abroad obtain cash as inexpensively as possible, carry as much as you feel comfortable with, and pay cash as much as possible.

Edited August 10, 2007 by Spee

[Farma]

This is a similar thread on the use of DCC http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...107436&st=0

[iubito2001]

DCC is dynamic currency conversion and used increasingly worldwide in hotels, restaurants etc. According to VISA and Mastercard regulations they card holder always must have the choice of currency and the exchange rate must be printed and shown. In a normal case DCC is not a cheat to the cardholder as he will get exactly the amount billed which he signed for. The spread which formerly was shared between issuer and acquirer is now often shared between acquirer and merchant. That is the reason the merchant is interested in using the system as he can get a kick-back from his acquiring bank.

[khunandy]

When accessing Siam Commercial Bank Exchange rates website I did once notice that there was a special credit card or visa exchange rate listed which was paying 2 baht less than the other rates.

Maybe you were a victim of this "scam" or maybe what I am talking about is a cash advance exchange rate...I find the whole bloody currency exchange business a sleazy trap that keeps you on your toes

[citizen33]

The practice of billing in a foreign currency is a big disadvantage if you have taken the trouble to get a credit card that does not impose a conversion charge or an unfavourable exchange rate. For UK residents the credit cards issued by Nationwide and the Post Office both offer this big advantage, but this is completely lost if, for instance, an hotel bills in GBP at its own exchange rate.

[Filer]

The practice of billing in a foreign currency is a big disadvantage if you have taken the trouble to get a credit card that does not impose a conversion charge or an unfavourable exchange rate. For UK residents the credit cards issued by Nationwide and the Post Office both offer this big advantage, but this is completely lost if, for instance, an hotel bills in GBP at its own exchange rate.

In theory you're right, but don't overlook the big current difference in Thailand between the on-shore and offshore exchange rates.

Currently it's still better to convert in Thailand at the on-shore rate, even at the hotel's lower-than-market rate, and have pounds billed direct to your UK card, than to have the conversion done in UK by your card company at the much worse off-shore rate.

I gave a specific example of my experience in post #6

[stevenl]

The retailers like it because it allows them to make a small margin on the exchange transaction - to offset their commission loss to the card company.

Not true, at least I'm sure I get exactly the same amount in Thai Baht credited towards my bank account, whether the guest paid in Baht or home currency.

IMHO, this occurence is not specific to this vendor, and may not be their fault at all. Vendors aren't able to take credit cards just because they want to. They have to register with the big credit card companies (and/or banks), play by their rules, and pay fees to use their services. Vendors like Nok Air may well just be passing this added expense on to the consumer, just like many other businesses do.

It is specific to this vendor, the vendor is obliged to offer the guest the choice: home currency or Thai Baht.

[elsie]

I would like to hear Nok Airs view on this and I may drop them an email but I don't hold out much hope they would reply.

Then, contact them via "Contact Us". If you don't ask, you will definitely never get a reply.

My experiences with their Customer Service have been good.

[rak sa_ngop]

DCC is dynamic currency conversion and used increasingly worldwide in hotels, restaurants etc. According to VISA and Mastercard regulations they card holder always must have the choice of currency and the exchange rate must be printed and shown. In a normal case DCC is not a cheat to the cardholder as he will get exactly the amount billed which he signed for. The spread which formerly was shared between issuer and acquirer is now often shared between acquirer and merchant. That is the reason the merchant is interested in using the system as he can get a kick-back from his acquiring bank.

So just to confirm, if you are charged GBP on a British card, you pay exactly that amount and no other charges are made?

I read somewhere else that additional charges would be made. So obviously I heard wrong.

Therefore in Thailand paying the home country currency on your card is generally a bad idea (onshore/offshore rates) whilst in most other countries it would make little difference.

Correct?

[Filer]

DCC is dynamic currency conversion and used increasingly worldwide in hotels, restaurants etc. According to VISA and Mastercard regulations they card holder always must have the choice of currency and the exchange rate must be printed and shown. In a normal case DCC is not a cheat to the cardholder as he will get exactly the amount billed which he signed for. The spread which formerly was shared between issuer and acquirer is now often shared between acquirer and merchant. That is the reason the merchant is interested in using the system as he can get a kick-back from his acquiring bank.

So just to confirm, if you are charged GBP on a British card, you pay exactly that amount and no other charges are made?

I read somewhere else that additional charges would be made. So obviously I heard wrong.

Therefore in Thailand paying the home country currency on your card is generally a bad idea (onshore/offshore rates) whilst in most other countries it would make little difference.

Correct?

"So just to confirm, if you are charged GBP on a British card, you pay exactly that amount and no other charges are made?"

--- Correct, in my personal experience in Thailand and other countries.

The Pound amount stated on your transaction receipt is what shows up on your account - nothing more. The card issuer handles it like a transaction back home.

"I read somewhere else that additional charges would be made. So obviously I heard wrong."

--- As far as I am aware, the only circumstance where an extra charge is levied on a Pounds transaction is when you draw Pounds cash from an ATM in UK and some issuers add a small percentage or flat fee on to this - to give them some profit, since they are not getting any commission percentage from a merchant in this case).

"Therefore in Thailand paying the home country currency on your card is generally a bad idea (onshore/offshore rates) whilst in most other countries it would make little difference."

--- Incorrect, on both points.

In Thailand the local onshore rate gives you more Baht for your Pound (or other currency). Doing the Baht-to-Pound exchange in Thailand results in a much lower Pounds total, not a higher one. The bottom-line saving can be up to 10% in my experience.

If we are considering UK-issued cards, then in most other countries where there is no dual exchange rate to worry about it may still be better to accept a local DCC conversion (at the slightly disadvantageous exchange rate which the merchant/retailer will use). This is because you will lose less this way than by letting the typical UK card-issuer do the conversion with its rip-off exchange rates plus the extra loadings for foreign-currency card transactions. Nationwide in UK doesn't screw its cardholders as badly as most other card issuers, but generally anything to do with foreign exchange conversions in the UK is to be avoided - it is a big cash-cow for the UK banking industry.

[rak sa_ngop]

DCC is dynamic currency conversion and used increasingly worldwide in hotels, restaurants etc. According to VISA and Mastercard regulations they card holder always must have the choice of currency and the exchange rate must be printed and shown. In a normal case DCC is not a cheat to the cardholder as he will get exactly the amount billed which he signed for. The spread which formerly was shared between issuer and acquirer is now often shared between acquirer and merchant. That is the reason the merchant is interested in using the system as he can get a kick-back from his acquiring bank.

So just to confirm, if you are charged GBP on a British card, you pay exactly that amount and no other charges are made?

I read somewhere else that additional charges would be made. So obviously I heard wrong.

Therefore in Thailand paying the home country currency on your card is generally a bad idea (onshore/offshore rates) whilst in most other countries it would make little difference.

Correct?

"So just to confirm, if you are charged GBP on a British card, you pay exactly that amount and no other charges are made?"

--- Correct, in my personal experience in Thailand and other countries.

The Pound amount stated on your transaction receipt is what shows up on your account - nothing more. The card issuer handles it like a transaction back home.

"I read somewhere else that additional charges would be made. So obviously I heard wrong."

--- As far as I am aware, the only circumstance where an extra charge is levied on a Pounds transaction is when you draw Pounds cash from an ATM in UK and some issuers add a small percentage or flat fee on to this - to give them some profit, since they are not getting any commission percentage from a merchant in this case).

"Therefore in Thailand paying the home country currency on your card is generally a bad idea (onshore/offshore rates) whilst in most other countries it would make little difference."

--- Incorrect, on both points.

In Thailand the local onshore rate gives you more Baht for your Pound (or other currency). Doing the Baht-to-Pound exchange in Thailand results in a much lower Pounds total, not a higher one. The bottom-line saving can be up to 10% in my experience.

If we are considering UK-issued cards, then in most other countries where there is no dual exchange rate to worry about it may still be better to accept a local DCC conversion (at the slightly disadvantageous exchange rate which the merchant/retailer will use). This is because you will lose less this way than by letting the typical UK card-issuer do the conversion with its rip-off exchange rates plus the extra loadings for foreign-currency card transactions. Nationwide in UK doesn't screw its cardholders as badly as most other card issuers, but generally anything to do with foreign exchange conversions in the UK is to be avoided - it is a big cash-cow for the UK banking industry.

I would be interested to hear other peoples' experiences on this one.

On 1st May I was presented with a Access bill for 1,414.12 GBP by BNH Hospital. I asked them to cancel this transaction and then they billed me for 93,650 baht.

According to my written records (I don't have the Access bill with me) I was charged by Access 1,392.76 GBP on the same date.

So I think I saved 21.36 pounds by paying my bill in baht.

Possibly on the date of my transaction the offshore rate was pretty close but slightly worse/better than the exchange rate used by BNH?

So it looks like there is no easy rule to decide which way to pay in Thailand - baht or home currency, or is there???

[likite]

I would like to hear Nok Airs view on this and I may drop them an email but I don't hold out much hope they would reply.

Then, contact them via "Contact Us". If you don't ask, you will definitely never get a reply.

My experiences with their Customer Service have been good.

Well I got a reply!

Thank you for sharing your comment with us regarding payment methods

We are sorry to hear that you are unsatisfied with our staff service and would like to take this opportunity to express our sincere apologies for the inconvenience caused to you. Please be informed that normally our staff will inform passengers about payment methods. We fully understand how frustrating you might feel to face this situation.

We realized that all feedbacks from our passengers are valuable to us because with feedbacks we would be able to identify and improve on our level of service accordingly. We will pass on your comments to the relevant party for further improvements to serve you better next time.

Again, sorry for the inconvenience caused to you and we do hope that we will have a chance to serve you for the next journey.

Best regards,

[Jimjim]

Sounds more like a mistake than a scam. It's just the onshore/offshore rate that gave you your problem.

[willi2006]

No scam but normal way of operation.

How cards work overseas and how transactions are charged with fees is explained in detail here Credit/Debit/ATM Cards and Foreign Exchange - FlyerGuide Wiki

Edited August 16, 2007 by willi2006

[likite]

No scam but normal way of operation.

How cards work overseas and how transactions are charged with fees is explained in detail here Credit/Debit/ATM Cards and Foreign Exchange - FlyerGuide Wiki

What's normal about being charged 3% for using a credit card? No choice, no warning but sign here.

[Maestro]

Likite, what amount in GBP, including foreign currency transaction surcharge, would your credit card issuer have debited to your account for those 3,700 Baht if the conversion had been made in the UK? And how much has your account actually been charged in GBP after the conversion was made in Thailand? It would be interesting to compare these two figures.

--

Maestro

[Jiu-Jitsu]

This system appears to be creeping in all over the world. The retailers like it because it allows them to make a small margin on the exchange transaction - to offset their commission loss to the card company.

I agree it's deplorable, and sharp practice if the retailer doesn't offer you the choice.

However, in Thailand, with the onshore and offshore rates, it can in fact be to your advantage to go with the local conversion and have your foreign credit card billed directly with your home currency.

Let me give you an example:

On 23 Feb this year I had to pay a big hotel bill in Bangkok, baht 102,300. I was given the choice of billing in baht or via an on-the-spot conversion to my card currency (pounds) at 67.17 baht to 1 pound, slightly less than the then current banks' exchange rate of about 68.5. I accepted the conversion which resulted in £1,523 ( no additional charges). This amount was exactly what was billed to my pound based credit card account at home - no extra charges.

If I'd allowed the 102,300 baht to be charged in baht to my credit card, it would have been converted at home at the offshore rate, which I think was was then about 62 to £1 (making £1,650), plus a foreign currency surcharge, and I would have ended up with a debit approaching £1,700.

Unless I've got something wrong here, it's BETTER to accept the local conversion in Thailand, even if the rate is a little worse than the banks', because the alternative is to have the conversion at the very unfavourable offshore rate - so long as we continue with the dual exchange rates.

Of course, this works in the opposite way round if you are talking about transferring credit amounts out of the country.

Remember: cash or credits coming into TH, debits going out of TH - do conversion in Thailand

cash or credits going out of TH, debits coming into TH - do conversion offshore

I have to let you know, Filer, you are completely wrong on this one.

Credit card companies don't use the 'Offshore' rate as you put it. Visa CCs use the VISA rate and then subtract their commission.

In the UK, as aforementioned, the Nationwide BS CC, Post Ofice Mastercard and the Audi Card(Mastercard) levy no foreign exchange charges.

Therefore the use of DCC with these cards would result in a disadvantage to the consumer of anything between a 3% to a 5% loss.

It's worth making this clear as others may choose to follow your advice and subsequently lose out.

My advice is to always refuse the Dynamic Currency Conversion(DCC) as it is of little or no benefit to the consumer and almost always of detriment.

There was also mention of Visa levying a 1% charge regardless of whether they carried out the Forex transaction. So you pay twice.

Just say NO.

[Jiu-Jitsu]

For example, looking at my CC transactions for July, I can see an entry for the 23rd of July at 69.16 baht to £.

[Jiu-Jitsu]

I read somewhere else that additional charges would be made. So obviously I heard wrong.

Therefore in Thailand paying the home country currency on your card is generally a bad idea (onshore/offshore rates) whilst in most other countries it would make little difference.

Correct?

"So just to confirm, if you are charged GBP on a British card, you pay exactly that amount and no other charges are made?"

--- Correct, in my personal experience in Thailand and other countries.

The Pound amount stated on your transaction receipt is what shows up on your account - nothing more. The card issuer handles it like a transaction back home.

No, some US banks have become aware of this, so add their own charges regardless

"I read somewhere else that additional charges would be made. So obviously I heard wrong."

--- As far as I am aware, the only circumstance where an extra charge is levied on a Pounds transaction is when you draw Pounds cash from an ATM in UK and some issuers add a small percentage or flat fee on to this - to give them some profit, since they are not getting any commission percentage from a merchant in this case).

All cash transactions from a CC attract a withdrawal charge, regardless of currency used. If you are unlucky enough to use a DCC machine and not to notice, you'll get stung twice

"Therefore in Thailand paying the home country currency on your card is generally a bad idea (onshore/offshore rates) whilst in most other countries it would make little difference."

--- Incorrect, on both points.

In Thailand the local onshore rate gives you more Baht for your Pound (or other currency). Doing the Baht-to-Pound exchange in Thailand results in a much lower Pounds total, not a higher one. The bottom-line saving can be up to 10% in my experience.

Of course you now know your initial advice was incorrect, as 'offshore rates' aren't utilized for CC transactions. Best to avoid DCC altogether.

If we are considering UK-issued cards, then in most other countries where there is no dual exchange rate to worry about it may still be better to accept a local DCC conversion (at the slightly disadvantageous exchange rate which the merchant/retailer will use). This is because you will lose less this way than by letting the typical UK card-issuer do the conversion with its rip-off exchange rates plus the extra loadings for foreign-currency card transactions. Nationwide in UK doesn't screw its cardholders as badly as most other card issuers, but generally anything to do with foreign exchange conversions in the UK is to be avoided - it is a big cash-cow for the UK banking industry.

I think you are guilty of using artistic licence here:

Nationwide in UK doesn't screw its cardholders as badly as most other card issuers

What do you mean by that statement? If you use their card correctly, there are no charges at all. In fact they waive the charge levied on them by Visa. So what do you mean by writing, "as badly"?

You also use the term "slightly disadvantageous exchange rate" when referring to the Dynamic Currency Conversion exchange rate. That is completely wrong. You will find that it is at least 3% off the VISA rate.

In fact the whole paragraph is full of inaccuracies, as we have already highlighted three CC cards with no forex loading.

The point is to 'shop smart'. not just choose a CC because of brand name loyalty or inertia.

In conclusion, avoid DCC.

Some vendors will show you literature stating that it is better to know what exchange you are getting as if somehow they are going to take months to present the transaction.

It's all marketing nonsense.

The banks involved are taking exactly the same commissions that most UK banks are taking. So how does that help you, the consumer? The answer is that it doesn't. You are just being gouged by someone else.

If you're from the UK, get a CC from one of the aforementioned institutions and say no to DCC. Even if you have a normal CC, you should still say no.

Why? If your UK bank profits are now being transferred to another country, they will look for a way to claw it back....from you, the consumer.

[giruz]

My advice is to always refuse the Dynamic Currency Conversion(DCC) as it is of little or no benefit to the consumer and almost always of detriment.

There was also mention of Visa levying a 1% charge regardless of whether they carried out the Forex transaction. So you pay twice.

Just say NO.

Exactly.

I've been to the Bayoke hotel recently, I asked to pay in THB and I've been wrongfully charged in EUR.

The total in EUR using DCC was 143.09EUR (I refused to sign the slip)

The total in EUR charged by Mastercard was 139.43EUR

Merchants are pushing this DCC as an advantage and I see many gonzo-like people believing that it is ('it protects me from currency fluctuation')

I think is just another way to rip-you off!!

I experienced this for Bayoke (I've been asked and I refused, however I've been charged in EUR and I spent about 40 min trying to explain that I wasn't going to sign the slip. The cashier said that type of transaction couldn't be voided (<deleted>) then at the end I suggested to call the bank and she finally managed to void it)

Fuji (the japanese rest.) again, I've been offered the conversion I refused and the lady did what she wanted. Again, I refused to sign the slip.

Bumrungrad Hospital: the cashier offered the conversion I refused and she billed me in THB.

Also, I hate that AMEX does a conversion THB-USD-EUR and this funny double passage increases the final cost for about 2%

bye

g.

Edited August 19, 2007 by giruz

[rak sa_ngop]

My advice is to always refuse the Dynamic Currency Conversion(DCC) as it is of little or no benefit to the consumer and almost always of detriment.

There was also mention of Visa levying a 1% charge regardless of whether they carried out the Forex transaction. So you pay twice.

Just say NO.

Exactly.

I've been to the Bayoke hotel recently, I asked to pay in THB and I've been wrongfully charged in EUR.

The total in EUR using DCC was 143.09EUR (I refused to sign the slip)

The total in EUR charged by Mastercard was 139.43EUR

Merchants are pushing this DCC as an advantage and I see many gonzo-like people believing that it is ('it protects me from currency fluctuation')

\

I think is just another way to rip-you off!!

So what about using DCC in other countries? How much of the DCC disadvantage comes from the dual currency rate in Thailand?

And of course now in Thailand as the offshore and onshore rates are starting to come together will the DCC disadvantage remain??

Over to you experts!

[JimGant]

If you check the travel forums, DCC is *NEVER* a winner, regardless of where you are. Yes, the offshore anomaly in Thailand has provided a smokescreen to allow widening the gouge. But if and when this anomaly disappears, you'll still be overcharged using DCC, since, by definition, they have to build in an artificial 'spread' to make a profit.

And don't be fooled that you're eliminating the "foreign conversion fees" charged by Visa/MC (1%) and your issuing bank (2% by most large banks). Visa/MC now call these 'interbank transaction charges,' meaning you'll be hit by them even if the conversion is done at the servicing bank end (i.e., DCC). Yes, some banks don't charge, plus eat the Visa/MC fee, e.g., Nationwide and CapitalOne -- but even here, you're hit with the DCC spread. Plus, on your credit card statement (in the US anyway), with DCC you'll no longer get a second line entry showing the conversion fee, as required by law. Why? Hey, your bank didn't convert anything (the servicing bank did), thus nothing, by law, to report. Be assured, however, those fees were included in that instantaneous conversion that took place at the check-out counter.

Nok Air has apparently joined the crowd that automatically uses DCC, hoping the customer is no more the wiser (as most aren't, and would even shrug if offered "baht or home currency?"). A few months back, Nok Air automatically (for me anyway) charged the more favorable "baht rate," even tho' they had the DCC option, as evidenced by the credit slip that showed "I chose to use baht" (merchants without the DCC option show nothing on their credit slips about currency selection). But, while they gained my gratitude, they lost money, as did their servicing bank (Bangkok Bank). I guess now, Nok Air clerks are instructed to always punch button #2, the DCC option, unless otherwise instructed. This, anyway, is how it works at Home Pro.

Filer's example of when DCC *could* be more advantageous is plausible. A few month back the MasterCard/Cirrus network, or at least some of its member banks, was charging the offshore rate. In this situation, yes, the DCC conversion rate could be superior to the offshore rate. However, MC/Cirrus appears to be in line these days with Visa/Plus in charging an onshore wholesale rate. However, as memeber banks are free to choose whatever exchange rate they want, there may be a few rogue banks charging the offshore rate. But such banks certainly aren't competitive, and it would be ridiculous to stay with them using the DCC rate as an excuse, since switching banks would trump both the offshore and DCC rates. Visa banks could do this too, of course (but no reports to indicate). Just another reason to check your monthly or online statements to see what rate you're getting (And, keep your credit card slips, because if you get sucked into a DCC transaction, those slips will be the only source of how much baht you were charged. On your monthly/online statement, you'll only see your home currency charge, thus being unable to see how much you were gouged in the exchange, unless you kept the credit card slip.)

Think Visa, MC and your issuing bank have clean hands? Their fees are percentages -- so they love your larger charge.

Gordon Gecko said, "Greed is good." He would of loved DCC.

[rak sa_ngop]

Thanks for the detailed reply JimGant. I may not be able to follow all the shenanigans but I've got the bottom line (for now).