11 minutes ago, riclag said:

Those indiscriminate announcements by the administration earlier during the beginning of the conflict keep getting traction it seems. Building a coalition against terror seems to be working its way around the globe.

"NATO allies decry Iran’s 'indiscriminate attacks' in Gulf security talks"

Allies discussed increasing dialogue with partners to strengthen practical cooperation, including maritime security, countering uncrewed aerial systems — commonly known as drones — protecting critical infrastructure and countering terrorism, NATO said.

https://www.brusselstimes.com/eu-affairs/2032189/nato-allies-decry-irans-indiscriminate-attacks-in-gulf-security-talks

One is reminded of Thailand's contribution to the War on Oil Terror in Iraq it was about 35 soldiers in a heavily fortified base well away from any fighting and there was publicity about the takrut (blessed amulets that would protect from bullets.

Look up the Yinon Plan on your phone whilst you are queing for petrol.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yinon_Plan

Every kind of inter-Arab confrontation,' he argued, would prove to be advantageous to Israel in the short term.[19] He saw contemporary events in Lebanon as a foreshadowing of future developments overall throughout the Arab world. The upheavals would create a precedent for guiding Israeli short-term and long-term strategies. Specifically, he asserted that the immediate aim of policy should be the dissolution of the military capabilities of Arab states east of Israel, while the primary long-term goal should work towards the formation of unique areas defined in terms of ethnonational and religious identities.

59 minutes ago, riclag said:

Those indiscriminate announcements by the administration earlier during the beginning of the conflict keep getting traction it seems. Building a coalition against terror seems to be working its way around the globe.

"NATO allies decry Iran’s 'indiscriminate attacks' in Gulf security talks"

Allies discussed increasing dialogue with partners to strengthen practical cooperation, including maritime security, countering uncrewed aerial systems — commonly known as drones — protecting critical infrastructure and countering terrorism, NATO said.

https://www.brusselstimes.com/eu-affairs/2032189/nato-allies-decry-irans-indiscriminate-attacks-in-gulf-security-talks

more help against the regime who threatens global stability .

Ukraine is now deploying its drone expertise to help five Gulf countries defend against Iranian drone strikes on their territory.

This shows real alliances stepping up against the regime's threats.

"Rustem Umerov, the head of Ukraine's National Security and Defense Council who led a delegation to the Middle East and Gulf this week, said that Ukraine has deployed interceptor units there to help protect civilian and critical infrastructure and is working to expand that protection".

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/zelenskyy-says-ukraine-is-using-drone-expertise-to-help-5-countries-against-iran-attacks

21 hours ago, Alan Zweibel said:

Projecting much?

Speaking of low values posts ^^^^^^

2 minutes ago, Effective altruism said:

Speaking of low values posts ^^^^^^

Given that the issue is that you claim, contrary to what scholars and various adherents believe, I think I got it exactly right. Your definition of socialism is clearly inadequate and contrary to what scholars and various stripes of socialists believe. And to just keep on asserting that you know best without bringing in any outside authoritative support doesn't help your cause in the least.

Just now, Alan Zweibel said:

Given that the issue is that you claim, contrary to what scholars and various adherents believe, I think I got it exactly right. Your definition of socialism is clearly inadequate and contrary to what scholars and various stripes of socialists believe. And to just keep on asserting that you know best without bringing in any outside authoritative support doesn't help your cause in the least.

Which scholars are you referring to?

6 minutes ago, Effective altruism said:

Which scholars are you referring to?

Gemini said:

The term socialist pluralism (or pluralist socialism) refers to political and economic theories that seek to combine socialist principles—such as collective ownership or social equality—with a "plurality" of power centers, such as diverse associations, multiple political parties, or self-governing worker councils.

Below is a list of key scholars and theorists who have advocated for these ideas, categorized by their specific historical and theoretical schools of thought.

---

1. The English School of Pluralism (Guild Socialism)

In the early 20th century, a group of British scholars challenged the idea of a single, all-powerful "sovereign state." They argued that society should be organized into various self-governing "guilds" or associations that handle specific functions (like education, industry, or religion).

• G. D. H. Cole: The primary theorist of Guild Socialism. In works like Guild Socialism Restated (1920), he argued for a society where workers control their own industries through guilds, coexisting with a decentralized state.

• Harold Laski: In his early career (e.g., Studies in the Problem of Sovereignty), Laski was a leading pluralist who argued that the state is just one of many associations to which a citizen owes loyalty. He later transitioned toward a more Marxist-influenced democratic socialism.

• R. H. Tawney: A Christian socialist and historian who emphasized "functional" society. In The Acquisitive Society (1920), he argued that social rights should be tied to social functions and that a plurality of associations is necessary to prevent state tyranny.

• J. N. Figgis: Though an Anglican priest, his work Churches in the Modern State (1913) was foundational for socialist pluralists because it defended the legal "personality" and autonomy of smaller groups against the state.

2. Eastern European Reformers (Self-Management & The Prague Spring)

During the Cold War, several scholars within the Eastern Bloc sought a "Third Way" between Soviet-style state socialism and Western capitalism.

• Edvard Kardelj: A Yugoslav politician and theorist who developed the concept of the "Pluralism of Self-Managing Interests." He argued that even in a one-party socialist state, there should be a plurality of interests (workers, consumers, local communities) that resolve conflicts through democratic negotiation rather than state decree.

• Tadeusz Kowalik: A Polish economist who advocated for "socialist pluralism" during the reform movements of 1956 and later. He was a critic of neoliberalism and supported a mixed economy with strong trade unions and worker participation.

• Ota Šik: A Czech economist and a key figure in the 1968 Prague Spring. He proposed "Socialism with a Human Face," which included market mechanisms and political pluralism within a socialist framework.

• Frederick M. Barnard: A scholar who extensively analyzed the "pluralist socialism" of the Czech reformers, highlighting their insistence that socialist regimes could only be sustained through genuine political contestation.

3. Modern & Radical Democratic Theorists

Contemporary scholars often use the term "pluralist socialism" to describe a decentralized, participatory form of democracy that goes beyond traditional party politics.

• Chantal Mouffe & Ernesto Laclau: Famous for their work Hegemony and Socialist Strategy (1985). They pioneered "Radical Democracy," arguing that socialism must be pluralistic by nature, incorporating diverse struggles (feminism, anti-racism, environmentalism) rather than focusing solely on the working class.

• Paul Hirst: A proponent of "Associationalism." In Associative Democracy (1994), he argued that many state functions should be turned over to voluntary, self-governing associations, creating a decentralized form of socialism.

• Alec Nove: A scholar of Soviet economics who, in The Economics of Feasible Socialism (1983), argued that any workable socialism must be pluralistic, involving a mix of state enterprises, cooperatives, and small private businesses.

• Luke Martell: A contemporary sociologist who advocates for "pluralist democratic socialism," emphasizing a diversity of values, democratic forms, and levels of organization (from local to global).

4. Liberal Socialist Roots

Some scholars are categorized as "liberal socialists" because they prioritize individual liberty and pluralism as the core of their socialist vision.

• John Stuart Mill: In his later years, Mill described himself as a "qualified socialist." Scholars like Helen McCabe have highlighted Mill’s support for a pluralist economy based on worker cooperatives.

• Michael Harrington: The founder of the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA). In Socialism: Past and Future (1989), he argued for a "visionary gradualism" that maintains the pluralistic institutions of liberal democracy while transforming the economic core of society.

3 minutes ago, Alan Zweibel said:

Gemini said:

The term socialist pluralism (or pluralist socialism) refers to political and economic theories that seek to combine socialist principles—such as collective ownership or social equality—with a "plurality" of power centers, such as diverse associations, multiple political parties, or self-governing worker councils.

Below is a list of key scholars and theorists who have advocated for these ideas, categorized by their specific historical and theoretical schools of thought.

---

1. The English School of Pluralism (Guild Socialism)

In the early 20th century, a group of British scholars challenged the idea of a single, all-powerful "sovereign state." They argued that society should be organized into various self-governing "guilds" or associations that handle specific functions (like education, industry, or religion).

• G. D. H. Cole: The primary theorist of Guild Socialism. In works like Guild Socialism Restated (1920), he argued for a society where workers control their own industries through guilds, coexisting with a decentralized state.

• Harold Laski: In his early career (e.g., Studies in the Problem of Sovereignty), Laski was a leading pluralist who argued that the state is just one of many associations to which a citizen owes loyalty. He later transitioned toward a more Marxist-influenced democratic socialism.

• R. H. Tawney: A Christian socialist and historian who emphasized "functional" society. In The Acquisitive Society (1920), he argued that social rights should be tied to social functions and that a plurality of associations is necessary to prevent state tyranny.

• J. N. Figgis: Though an Anglican priest, his work Churches in the Modern State (1913) was foundational for socialist pluralists because it defended the legal "personality" and autonomy of smaller groups against the state.

2. Eastern European Reformers (Self-Management & The Prague Spring)

During the Cold War, several scholars within the Eastern Bloc sought a "Third Way" between Soviet-style state socialism and Western capitalism.

• Edvard Kardelj: A Yugoslav politician and theorist who developed the concept of the "Pluralism of Self-Managing Interests." He argued that even in a one-party socialist state, there should be a plurality of interests (workers, consumers, local communities) that resolve conflicts through democratic negotiation rather than state decree.

• Tadeusz Kowalik: A Polish economist who advocated for "socialist pluralism" during the reform movements of 1956 and later. He was a critic of neoliberalism and supported a mixed economy with strong trade unions and worker participation.

• Ota Šik: A Czech economist and a key figure in the 1968 Prague Spring. He proposed "Socialism with a Human Face," which included market mechanisms and political pluralism within a socialist framework.

• Frederick M. Barnard: A scholar who extensively analyzed the "pluralist socialism" of the Czech reformers, highlighting their insistence that socialist regimes could only be sustained through genuine political contestation.

3. Modern & Radical Democratic Theorists

Contemporary scholars often use the term "pluralist socialism" to describe a decentralized, participatory form of democracy that goes beyond traditional party politics.

• Chantal Mouffe & Ernesto Laclau: Famous for their work Hegemony and Socialist Strategy (1985). They pioneered "Radical Democracy," arguing that socialism must be pluralistic by nature, incorporating diverse struggles (feminism, anti-racism, environmentalism) rather than focusing solely on the working class.

• Paul Hirst: A proponent of "Associationalism." In Associative Democracy (1994), he argued that many state functions should be turned over to voluntary, self-governing associations, creating a decentralized form of socialism.

• Alec Nove: A scholar of Soviet economics who, in The Economics of Feasible Socialism (1983), argued that any workable socialism must be pluralistic, involving a mix of state enterprises, cooperatives, and small private businesses.

• Luke Martell: A contemporary sociologist who advocates for "pluralist democratic socialism," emphasizing a diversity of values, democratic forms, and levels of organization (from local to global).

4. Liberal Socialist Roots

Some scholars are categorized as "liberal socialists" because they prioritize individual liberty and pluralism as the core of their socialist vision.

• John Stuart Mill: In his later years, Mill described himself as a "qualified socialist." Scholars like Helen McCabe have highlighted Mill’s support for a pluralist economy based on worker cooperatives.

• Michael Harrington: The founder of the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA). In Socialism: Past and Future (1989), he argued for a "visionary gradualism" that maintains the pluralistic institutions of liberal democracy while transforming the economic core of society.

What does the term "socialist" mean?

socialist

/sō′shə-lĭst/

noun

1. An advocate of socialism.

2. A member of a political party or group that advocates socialism.

What does Socalims mean:

socialism, social and economic doctrine that calls for public rather than private ownership or control of property and natural resources.

What kind of world do you want to live in: a world of free markets or one of socialism?

13 minutes ago, Effective altruism said:

What does the term "socialist" mean?

socialist

/sō′shə-lĭst/

noun

1. An advocate of socialism.

2. A member of a political party or group that advocates socialism.

What does Socalims mean:

socialism, social and economic doctrine that calls for public rather than private ownership or control of property and natural resources.

What kind of world do you want to live in: a world of free markets or one of socialism?

So the dictionary gets to decide? Can you cite me for me the scholar who wrote that definition?

@Effective Altruism , Words matter , but replying to members low value remarks (short/no substance) and heavy Gemini AI quoting (dozens of blocks, little own input) just sustains the off topic trolling in my thread.

Forum rules are clear on low value posts and limited AI use, which is why I use the ignore feature so we can focus on the real discussion, like former appeasing countries, giving in and Kharg's 90% oil choke point, etc.

What do you think about Ukrainian help with drones against the number one state sponsor of terror?

48 minutes ago, riclag said:

@Effective Altruism , Words matter , but replying to members low value remarks (short/no substance) and heavy Gemini AI quoting (dozens of blocks, little own input) just sustains the off topic trolling in my thread.

Forum rules are clear on low value posts and limited AI use, which is why I use the ignore feature so we can focus on the real discussion, like former appeasing countries, giving in and Kharg's 90% oil choke point, etc.

What do you think about Ukrainian help with drones against the number one state sponsor of terror?

What tools are you using when writing, riclag? Not many days ago you couldn't string together a sentence without several spelling and grammar errors if your life depended on it.😆

France, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, UAE, Bahrain, Canada, Australia, South Korea, and more condemns Iran's terror tactic closure of the Strait of H, attacks on commercial vessels (like the Thai ship), and threats to global energy security, pledging readiness to contribute to safe passage efforts.

This growing coalition shows allies finally stepping up against the regime's aggression, exactly as Japan's PM recognized in praising Trump as the only one who can deliver peace and prosperity while hesitant NATO voices and leftist appeasement narratives look increasingly out of touch.

google ai overview:

Countries Pledging Support to Secure the Strait (March 2026)

According to a joint statement released around March 21, 2026, the following 22 countries are involved in the effort:United Kingdom (UK),France,Germany,Italy,The Netherlands,Japan,UnitedArab Emirates (UAE),Bahrain,Canada,Australia,South Korea,NewZealand,Denmark,Norway,Sweden,Finland,Czech Republic,Romania,Latvia,Slovenia,Estonia and Lithuania.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/joint-statement-from-the-leaders-of-the-united-kingdom-france-germany-italy-the-netherlands-and-japan-on-the-strait-of-hormuz-19-march-2026

1 hour ago, riclag said:

France, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, UAE, Bahrain, Canada, Australia, South Korea, and more condemns Iran's terror tactic closure of the Strait of H, attacks on commercial vessels (like the Thai ship), and threats to global energy security, pledging readiness to contribute to safe passage efforts.

This growing coalition shows allies finally stepping up against the regime's aggression, exactly as Japan's PM recognized in praising Trump as the only one who can deliver peace and prosperity while hesitant NATO voices and leftist appeasement narratives look increasingly out of touch.

google ai overview:

Countries Pledging Support to Secure the Strait (March 2026)

According to a joint statement released around March 21, 2026, the following 22 countries are involved in the effort:United Kingdom (UK),France,Germany,Italy,The Netherlands,Japan,UnitedArab Emirates (UAE),Bahrain,Canada,Australia,South Korea,NewZealand,Denmark,Norway,Sweden,Finland,Czech Republic,Romania,Latvia,Slovenia,Estonia and Lithuania.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/joint-statement-from-the-leaders-of-the-united-kingdom-france-germany-italy-the-netherlands-and-japan-on-the-strait-of-hormuz-19-march-2026

If ever anyone was a sucker for empty rhetoric, it's riclag. What actual material support are these countries promising. Trump is demanding that they patrol the Strait of Hormuz. Any hint of support for that on their part?

4 hours ago, riclag said:

France, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, UAE, Bahrain, Canada, Australia, South Korea, and more condemns Iran's terror tactic closure of the Strait of H, attacks on commercial vessels (like the Thai ship), and threats to global energy security, pledging readiness to contribute to safe passage efforts.

This growing coalition shows allies finally stepping up against the regime's aggression, exactly as Japan's PM recognized in praising Trump as the only one who can deliver peace and prosperity while hesitant NATO voices and leftist appeasement narratives look increasingly out of touch.

google ai overview:

Countries Pledging Support to Secure the Strait (March 2026)

According to a joint statement released around March 21, 2026, the following 22 countries are involved in the effort:United Kingdom (UK),France,Germany,Italy,The Netherlands,Japan,UnitedArab Emirates (UAE),Bahrain,Canada,Australia,South Korea,NewZealand,Denmark,Norway,Sweden,Finland,Czech Republic,Romania,Latvia,Slovenia,Estonia and Lithuania.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/joint-statement-from-the-leaders-of-the-united-kingdom-france-germany-italy-the-netherlands-and-japan-on-the-strait-of-hormuz-19-march-2026

The overview & UK link forgot to mention Ukraine helping in a effort to stop the Iranian Terror regime's efforts, by using their drone capabilities. That brings it to 23 countries.

The GOAT President is the best at getting other countries to help, against Terror.

200 Ukranian soldiers are helping Middle East allies SHOOT DOWN Iranian drones

Only Brits will get this with the mad Katie Hopkins tweeting....🤣

NEWS (as every post from riclag is titled)

19 days ago statement (emmm News) - "we already won the war against Iran". Who cares about help...

@riclag - you are kindly requested to tell us what beautiful, extraorinary, fantastic and astonishing NEWS you have on this topic.

As everybody realized you have opened several new fantastic NEWS topics since then on the "POLITICAL SOAPBOX". But in this matter, NO NEWS!

(Maybe you should post your NEWS topics under "WHAT THE PAPERS ARE SAYING"?!