No More Dependent Extension Of Stay If The Host Foreigner Has A Retirement Extension Of Stay Permit

[Sanpatong]

Ok, I didn't actually read all 31 pages so this has probably been said before:

It's highly ironic, in a smirky kind of way, that this ONLY affects the 'quality' type of retirees that we always assumed were the non-sexpat drunk loser types. Well guess what, it's now getting MORE difficult for respectable married couples to retire in Thailand, however Andy the Barfly with his pile of Chang is still happy as a clam.

[otton]

That is very doubtful. I assume the reason for that is the fear that younger "retirees" would work illegally. Most countries in the world that have retirement visas also have age requirements. Thats logical too, because most require pensions, and most people with pensions don't get them until an older age. Thailand isn't actually very different than many other countries in this program, excepting not offering long term security, and offering the option to those without pension (more common for countries to offer an investment income option if they offer it at all).

Than tell me what is it that makes them sure than under 50 MARRIED folks aren't working illegally!

If they were ANY serious about fighting illegal workers (and believe me they have no particular reason to be: the taxes not paid would be easily recouped by the umpteenth hike in visa/extension fees and the work done, for example by illegal working English teachers, is a great net benefit for Thailand as a whole and is a bargain compared to paying them "legal" wages) they would crack down hard on the EMPLOYERS. At the moment Thai employers don't even get as much as a slap on the wrist...

And since they have no qualms about employing draconian measures, what about banning forever people caught working illegally? That would be much less draconian than effectively "banning" everyone under 50 anyway...

[sonicdragon]

LA may not have 250,000 Thais . . . From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thai Town is a neighborhood of Los Angeles centered along Hollywood Boulevard between Normandie Avenue and Western Avenue in Hollywood. The neighborhood was designated by the City Council in 2000. It is currently about 1 mile long and growing. The area contains many Thai restaurants and shops. There are also many Armenians living in the area, which is accordingly also referred to as Little Armenia. The boundaries between Thai Town and Little Armenia are ambiguous and fluid. The area is served by the Metro Red Line at the Hollywood/Western station.

Los Angeles has the largest Thai population outside of Thailand. Roughly 80,000 of California's estimated 120,000 Thai Americans live in Los Angeles.[1] It is also home to the world's first and only Thai Town. In 2002 there was an estimated 80,000 Thai immigrants living in Los Angeles. Thai Chinese are also included in the population. Because of this, Los Angeles is sometimes referred to as Thailand's 77th province. Both Bangkok (Thailand's capital) and Los Angeles are known as the City of Angels.

In mid-April, Thai Town celebrates Songkran, the Thai New Year, by closing off Hollywood Boulevard within its boundaries, and setting up food stands and entertainment in the street.

I would say that it is just this kind of thing, in reverse, that the powers-that-be in Thailand want to avoid. They don't want a cosmopolitan society.

[otton]

Ok, I didn't actually read all 31 pages so this has probably been said before:

It's highly ironic, in a smirky kind of way, that this ONLY affects the 'quality' type of retirees that we always assumed were the non-sexpat drunk loser types. Well guess what, it's now getting MORE difficult for respectable married couples to retire in Thailand, however Andy the Barfly with his pile of Chang is still happy as a clam.

Yes, this other justification for all of the recent and less recent changes of the immi regs has always been laughable.

Firstly, because it has just been a GENERAL worsening of the situation. Which categories have seen a relaxation and an easing of the rules applying to them?

Secondly, the most affected are most often than not the so called "quality ones" (they have clearly said that "quality" equals "wealth" much more than "restrained sexual life")! People who come here to GIVE (SPEND and INVEST) and not to TAKE (earning a living here)...

As for the sex-tourists/sex-pats, you have NO REAL WAY of separating them from the rest since they are in all the income brackets and work in all types of jobs as well (I guess they are just "normal" folks after all...).

[Rhys]

At times.. it is merely....the B...ID...OTs...showing what they can do in the name of nationalism..For those of us that stay... we find a way.. TIT

Edited September 2, 2007 by Rhys

[thaigene2]

I am reading this in the USA. I'm just thinking about maybe retiring to Thailand. I am very confused by all of this. What is your theory about what the Thai government is trying to do? Do they want people to retire there or not? What are the reasons for not wanting people to retire there? I am looking for information.

You need to understand the power structure of Thailand for ANY of this to make sense. The country is run by a clique of very rich familes with an ethnic dimesion attached.

The power structure is worried about foreigners, esp farangs, from competing with them now and in the future. So they prohibit us (increasingly as you've been reading) from living here. That includes the thousands of us married to Thais and who have kids born here (thai citizens).

So where do you fit in to this debacle as a retiree who wants to drop 200-300,000 USD for a condo? Well, given that they don't give a sh+t about those of us married to their OWN citizens and who are FATHERS TO THEIR OWN THAI CITIZENS, where do you think YOU stand?? Two or three years from now, will they tell you that you can only stay here 2 months a year - or less? Then what - thanks for your money sucker!!

Go to Mexico my friend..they are most unlikely to do that to you..

TG2

Edited September 2, 2007 by thaigene2

[IAMSOBAD]

i just sent an urgent email to bloomberg and CNBC. i will let you know when i get a response. we also need to tell all business owners that we frequent. let them make some calls on our behalf. we need to make this person in charge ...CHANGE HIS DIRECTION.

PLEASE...everyone...do more than just post here...MAKE A STRONG STAND.

[IAMSOBAD]

MAKE THE CALL TOMORROW....CNBC Thailand...or send email. www.cnbc.com

CNBC

25th Floor, CRC Tower

All Seasons Place

87/2 Wireless Road, Lumpini

Puthumwan, Bangkok 10330

Tel: 66-2-627-4456

Fax: 66-2-627-4459

[TAWP]

Acctually, I doubt this has anything to do with the junta per see, since below the highest level the same people are still running all local biz in different part of the government, unelected. As bureaucrats in most countries.

[IAMSOBAD]

BLOOMBERG

TEL 662-654-0255 fax 662-654-0265

www.bloomberg.com

these are the news people. they love stories like this about...money...governments...families...misery...EVERYONE CALL AND REPORT THE HARDSHIPS. LETS MAKE THE POWER THAT DID THIS REGRET HIS ACTIONS.

P.S. i am not talking about meeting the financial amounts that they want...i am talking about families being torn apart at no fault of their own. good people who followed the rules to a T. Please take a stand for them and all of us in the future. Once this hits the international news...things will happen fast to correct this injustice. If you dont help...you are part of the problem...

IF YOU HELP...YOU ARE THE SOLUTION.

[geoffphuket]

BLOOMBERG

TEL 662-654-0255 fax 662-654-0265

www.bloomberg.com

these are the news people. they love stories like this about...money...governments...families...misery...EVERYONE CALL AND REPORT THE HARDSHIPS. LETS MAKE THE POWER THAT DID THIS REGRET HIS ACTIONS.

P.S. i am not talking about meeting the financial amounts that they want...i am talking about families being torn apart at no fault of their own. good people who followed the rules to a T. Please take a stand for them and all of us in the future. Once this hits the international news...things will happen fast to correct this injustice. If you dont help...you are part of the problem...

IF YOU HELP...YOU ARE THE SOLUTION.

I think they'd only be interested in an example from a specific couple that had been directly affected, not just hot air from a topic being discussed on a forum.

[IAMSOBAD]

BLOOMBERG

TEL 662-654-0255 fax 662-654-0265

www.bloomberg.com

these are the news people. they love stories like this about...money...governments...families...misery...EVERYONE CALL AND REPORT THE HARDSHIPS. LETS MAKE THE POWER THAT DID THIS REGRET HIS ACTIONS.

P.S. i am not talking about meeting the financial amounts that they want...i am talking about families being torn apart at no fault of their own. good people who followed the rules to a T. Please take a stand for them and all of us in the future. Once this hits the international news...things will happen fast to correct this injustice. If you dont help...you are part of the problem...

IF YOU HELP...YOU ARE THE SOLUTION.

I think they'd only be interested in an example from a specific couple that had been directly affected, not just hot air from a topic being discussed on a forum.

WHY DONT YOU CALL THEM AND SEE. this is not about hot air...its about people having tons of stress and misfortunes over this. Edited September 2, 2007 by IAMSOBAD

[farang prince]

BLOOMBERG

TEL 662-654-0255 fax 662-654-0265

www.bloomberg.com

these are the news people. they love stories like this about...money...governments...families...misery...EVERYONE CALL AND REPORT THE HARDSHIPS. LETS MAKE THE POWER THAT DID THIS REGRET HIS ACTIONS.

P.S. i am not talking about meeting the financial amounts that they want...i am talking about families being torn apart at no fault of their own. good people who followed the rules to a T. Please take a stand for them and all of us in the future. Once this hits the international news...things will happen fast to correct this injustice. If you dont help...you are part of the problem...

IF YOU HELP...YOU ARE THE SOLUTION.

I think they'd only be interested in an example from a specific couple that had been directly affected, not just hot air from a topic being discussed on a forum.

Geoff, you are right about the human angle that the international media will need in order to create a "hook" for the story. But they also need to understand the problem in the first place. I am fully supportive of IAMSOBAD's efforts to create an awareness of the issue. This is proactive effort, instead of simple whining on an internet site.

[Johpa]

One reader says correctly that Farang/Thai married couple are deemed to need only 40,000 baht income a month BETWEEN them.

I know loads of Thai/Thai families managing to survive on 5,000 (or less) - 10,000 baht a month

I am curious as to how my wife (Thai) and I (farang) would be expected to spend 40K baht per month upon retirement? I can certainly see the need the first year or so of retirement needing the funds, but only if I could find a company that would sell me a vehicle on credit with monthly payments. But soon enough the vehicle would be paid for. Then what am I spending money upon? We have a home that we built using cash, so no need for rent money. We prefer living in a rural area so the cost of living is for the most part food, drink, and transportation costs (gas). Perhaps I will have to get a home loan from the bank, invest the money elsewhere, and in effect repurchase my home. As it currently stands I will be forced to come up with some sort of scheme to scam the authorities into thinking I am spending 40k per month. But then on the other hand, retirement is still several years away and who knows what the laws will be in the future given the transitory nature of Thai governments and Thai laws. But as I noted in an earlier post, the trend of the thinking of the Bangkok elite does not bode well for us Farangs.

[Jingthing]

The requirements now are all about either INCOME or BANKED MONEY, or a combo.

They have nothing to do at all with the amount of money transferred in annually, nor your SPENDING levels.

As the rules stand now, you can spend like a cheapskate Charley as long as you are fat bankable.

Lets not get ahead of ourselves!

Edited September 2, 2007 by Jingthing

[sbk]

One reader says correctly that Farang/Thai married couple are deemed to need only 40,000 baht income a month BETWEEN them.

I know loads of Thai/Thai families managing to survive on 5,000 (or less) - 10,000 baht a month

I am curious as to how my wife (Thai) and I (farang) would be expected to spend 40K baht per month upon retirement? I can certainly see the need the first year or so of retirement needing the funds, but only if I could find a company that would sell me a vehicle on credit with monthly payments. But soon enough the vehicle would be paid for. Then what am I spending money upon? We have a home that we built using cash, so no need for rent money. We prefer living in a rural area so the cost of living is for the most part food, drink, and transportation costs (gas). Perhaps I will have to get a home loan from the bank, invest the money elsewhere, and in effect repurchase my home. As it currently stands I will be forced to come up with some sort of scheme to scam the authorities into thinking I am spending 40k per month. But then on the other hand, retirement is still several years away and who knows what the laws will be in the future given the transitory nature of Thai governments and Thai laws. But as I noted in an earlier post, the trend of the thinking of the Bangkok elite does not bode well for us Farangs.

My understanding about the 40,000 baht a month is that 40,000 baht a month income must be shown by those applying for an extension based on marriage to a Thai National, not anything to do with retirement visas at all.

[pointofview]

Acctually, I doubt this has anything to do with the junta per see, since below the highest level the same people are still running all local biz in different part of the government, unelected. As bureaucrats in most countries.

I agree, it was Thaksin who started playing the Nationalsit card - THAI LOVE THAI PARTY!

The game is a lot less complicated that what many observers seem to give the Thais credit for.

It goes something like this: 1) play the capitalist card, welcome foriegn investment. promote friendly attitude towards ferang investors and their nationals 2) Bleed the country dry 3) Promote negative nationalism - agressive attitude towards foriegners. 4) Impliment radical new visa and residency rules and take away foriegners rights to own property/land - make it ilegal for those whom have already bought following advice by thai lawyers. 5) many foriegners will leave losing on their investments - those that hang on will eventually be forced out losing even more 6) Promote self sufficency economy to the great unwashed - so they will accept the downturn in the economy/standard of living. 7) Promote tourism from asian and middle eastern (low income) quality tourists! - and so on !!!!

Remember it wasnt so many years ago when a Thai national that married a foriegner lost their right to own land in their own countr - thailand.

At least people new where they stood then. I personaly feel robbed and cheated (house, condo, car etc/)

and wish i had taken the advice of those who told me years ago that a ferang will never own anything in thailand - as they will blatently change the law to take everthing they want. You see, thats their trump card - we believe a legal sytem has honor! Stupid ferang - what are you going to do now.

[robertcox59]

I am not affected as I won't qualify for a retirement visa for many years to come, but this new rule is truly stupid and cruel. Why make it harder for foreign families to stay in Thailand? I can't think of a single reason. At the same time, those that are affected by this rule will be hit very hard. And others who maybe could come up with the money will probably leave in disgust.

What kind of government invents new laws that specifically hurt families? It boggles the mind.

PS: I think one needs to view this in the context of ever-increasing anti-foreigner laws and increased isolationism in Thailand. It's sad because it hurts the Thai people the most.

Good point on condo prices too. I was in the market for a condo but now, not anymore. Not because of this specific law, more like because of the general direction this country is taking which virtually guarantees that the ROI becomes smaller and smaller... retirees getting kicked out, hard to move money out of the country, etc etc.

I'm retired and have been living in Thailand for several years. I feel like I make a contribution to the community I live in, in many ways, not just the money I spend here each month. This new rule only deepens my sense that Thailand only measures the worth of inidividuals, especially foreigners, in terms of money. It hurts me to say this, because I obviously like many things about Thailand, but this "new" rule (in the context of all the others that make it harder for foreigners to stay here) is very unsettling. I'll let this settle for a bit, but this might just be the last straw.

I wonder what message the Thai government thiniks it's sending with rule changes like this? I understood that some of the earlier visa changes, or thought I did; I didn't even disagree with forcing some unsavory characters to leave the country. Still, many of the rules seem intrusive and needlessly difficult, the Thai bank account requirement, for example. But this new requirement is just cruel. It is without honor. Shame on the government for using its power in this way.

[farang prince]

One reader says correctly that Farang/Thai married couple are deemed to need only 40,000 baht income a month BETWEEN them.

I know loads of Thai/Thai families managing to survive on 5,000 (or less) - 10,000 baht a month

I am curious as to how my wife (Thai) and I (farang) would be expected to spend 40K baht per month upon retirement? I can certainly see the need the first year or so of retirement needing the funds, but only if I could find a company that would sell me a vehicle on credit with monthly payments. But soon enough the vehicle would be paid for. Then what am I spending money upon? We have a home that we built using cash, so no need for rent money. We prefer living in a rural area so the cost of living is for the most part food, drink, and transportation costs (gas). Perhaps I will have to get a home loan from the bank, invest the money elsewhere, and in effect repurchase my home. As it currently stands I will be forced to come up with some sort of scheme to scam the authorities into thinking I am spending 40k per month. But then on the other hand, retirement is still several years away and who knows what the laws will be in the future given the transitory nature of Thai governments and Thai laws. But as I noted in an earlier post, the trend of the thinking of the Bangkok elite does not bode well for us Farangs.

Modern Thai history is a three-act tragedy punctuated by moments of high comedy. Shakespeare would have had a ball writing the script.

[sonnyJ]

They make things for us very difficult now. But did you ever ask yourself why? We do the same with them, since many years. If Thai People like to go to Europe or USA, it's almost impossibile for them to get a visa. Why don't we let them travel easely? Maybe they would let us stay easly too.

Get off of it.

Most thais can not afford to pay for the airplane ticket plus one night in the hotel in most first world countries. The thais that can prove they have the funds to pay for a vacation in the USA do not have a problem getting a visa unless they have other issues like a criminal record.

You are wrong.

I don't know exactly about USA but the British and some other EU nations give very hard time to some Thai citizens (with more than enough money) applying just for tourist visa. They have some quotas like no. of stamps per day, I'm not sure how far their craziness could go.

[chinthee]

They make things for us very difficult now. But did you ever ask yourself why? We do the same with them, since many years. If Thai People like to go to Europe or USA, it's almost impossibile for them to get a visa. Why don't we let them travel easely? Maybe they would let us stay easly too.

Get off of it.

Most thais can not afford to pay for the airplane ticket plus one night in the hotel in most first world countries. The thais that can prove they have the funds to pay for a vacation in the USA do not have a problem getting a visa unless they have other issues like a criminal record.

You are wrong.

I don't know exactly about USA but the British and some other EU nations give very hard time to some Thai citizens (with more than enough money) applying just for tourist visa. They have some quotas like no. of stamps per day, I'm not sure how far their craziness could go.

The reasons for the control by the US immigration historically is that Thais went there and overstayed, got in trouble, the wrong elements arrived, etc..etc.. Actually, most Thais in Thailand know this and understand why it's so tough. After 9/11, forget it. Nobody gets in, Thai or otherwise.

[otton]

You are wrong.

I don't know exactly about USA but the British and some other EU nations give very hard time to some Thai citizens (with more than enough money) applying just for tourist visa. They have some quotas like no. of stamps per day, I'm not sure how far their craziness could go.

Go get your answer here: www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=129155

[sbk]

Regardless of US immigration policy towards Thais looking for a tourist visa, this is applied to people already in the country and in the system. Not just new applicants.

[moskito]

As of Sept 1st, no more dependent extension of stay permits will be issued if the foreigner has a extension of stay based on retirement. This includes any “grandfather” cases where the dependent applicant had the extension of stay before Sept 1st 2007.

Not being affected myself, I think that will be very bad news for many families currently living in Thailand. I can understand their decision to not accept new applications, but virtually kicking out those who are currently living here under the regulations they made is very very bad.

maybe its a stupid question, but its a forum here, right?

I am married to my Thaiwife since 7 years, bought some land here and build a house, will they kick me out of Thailand just because I havent constantly 400k on my account here and no income of 60k a month?? ....what kind of law is that anyway?

I am 46, a bit young to retire,

[sbk]

Off topic posts have been deleted. Lets try to remain within the confines of a discussion of visas, at the very least.

[dreamtime]

They make things for us very difficult now. But did you ever ask yourself why? We do the same with them, since many years. If Thai People like to go to Europe or USA, it's almost impossibile for them to get a visa. Why don't we let them travel easely? Maybe they would let us stay easly too.

Get off of it.

Most thais can not afford to pay for the airplane ticket plus one night in the hotel in most first world countries. The thais that can prove they have the funds to pay for a vacation in the USA do not have a problem getting a visa unless they have other issues like a criminal record.

You are wrong.

I don't know exactly about USA but the British and some other EU nations give very hard time to some Thai citizens (with more than enough money) applying just for tourist visa. They have some quotas like no. of stamps per day, I'm not sure how far their craziness could go.

The reasons for the control by the US immigration historically is that Thais went there and overstayed, got in trouble, the wrong elements arrived, etc..etc.. Actually, most Thais in Thailand know this and understand why it's so tough. After 9/11, forget it. Nobody gets in, Thai or otherwise.

Soon, nobody might get out

[itsbill]

as a visa holder can no longer have dependants I understand that a (farang) wife must get her own visa , but what if they have 2 farang kids say 14 and 16, I hear it is pretty easy to get a student visa , but what happens 3 or 4 years from now assuming the kids finnish their education, or perhaps the child finishes a year from now , they can no longer be dependant , they cant do entry level jobs what is their situation , just go back to a country they dont know, dont remember or have only spent the odd Christmas in the last 10 years? so does the whole family have to leave as the child becomes illegal?

[Maestro]

I am married to my Thaiwife since 7 years, bought some land here and build a house, will they kick me out of Thailand just because I havent constantly 400k on my account here and no income of 60k a month??

No. And this topic is about the extension for retirement, not the extension to live with Thai wife. Please start a new topic if the latter is what you want to discuss.

--

Maestro

[JaiGuru]

I have a hunch you are blowing these stats out your ass. Quote a source and specifics or go away.

What a sweetheart...

A quick look at the TAT website shows that in calendar year 2006 the international tourist arrivals excluding Thais numbered 13,821,802.

And how many resident aliens are there in Thailand? And how much did they spend during calendar year 2006? If you have the numbers, I'm sure Simon and I would surely like to know.

The most recent data I could find (fiscal year 1999) shows 94,616 female and 171,233 male resident aliens living in Thailand. Of the preceding 5 or so years, the number was rather flat; no big trend up or down. I was surprised to see males outnumber females at only 2 to 1; I must travel with the wrong crowd. US and Japanese males outnumber US and Japanese females at over 3 to 1.

And while we're quoting statistics; the average monthly income in Greater Bangkok per household (3.2 persons) is 24,690 THB as of the year 2000.

My recollection is that according to TAT, international tourists spend on average about 3,500 THB per day. There must be quite a few doing it on the cheap as most people I know spend considerably more.

I couldn’t find any statistics on how much resident aliens spend each month, but I think this forum speaks for itself; there are a few posters with lofty budgets of 100k THB per month (3,226 THB per day), but most seem to wonder how they are going to spend 65k THB per month (2,096 THB per day), grouse about why should they have to bring in so much money when the cost of living is so cheap, or as a recent post in this thread mentioned a farang and his Thai wife figuring out how they’re going to spend only 40k THB per month (1,290 THB per day).

Here’s something else to chew on; of the 265,849 resident aliens living in Thailand, 81.86% are from China, with only 2.05% from the UK, 0.89% from the US, and 0.49% from Germany.

[farang prince]

I have a hunch you are blowing these stats out your ass. Quote a source and specifics or go away.

What a sweetheart...

A quick look at the TAT website shows that in calendar year 2006 the international tourist arrivals excluding Thais numbered 13,821,802.

And how many resident aliens are there in Thailand? And how much did they spend during calendar year 2006? If you have the numbers, I'm sure Simon and I would surely like to know.

The most recent data I could find (fiscal year 1999) shows 94,616 female and 171,233 male resident aliens living in Thailand. Of the preceding 5 or so years, the number was rather flat; no big trend up or down. I was surprised to see males outnumber females at only 2 to 1; I must travel with the wrong crowd. US and Japanese males outnumber US and Japanese females at over 3 to 1.

And while we're quoting statistics; the average monthly income in Greater Bangkok per household (3.2 persons) is 24,690 THB as of the year 2000.

My recollection is that according to TAT, international tourists spend on average about 3,500 THB per day. There must be quite a few doing it on the cheap as most people I know spend considerably more.

I couldn’t find any statistics on how much resident aliens spend each month, but I think this forum speaks for itself; there are a few posters with lofty budgets of 100k THB per month (3,226 THB per day), but most seem to wonder how they are going to spend 65k THB per month (2,096 THB per day), grouse about why should they have to bring in so much money when the cost of living is so cheap, or as a recent post in this thread mentioned a farang and his Thai wife figuring out how they’re going to spend only 40k THB per month (1,290 THB per day).

Here’s something else to chew on; of the 265,849 resident aliens living in Thailand, 81.86% are from China, with only 2.05% from the UK, 0.89% from the US, and 0.49% from Germany.

Thanks JaiGuru...at last some hard numbers. Appreciate your work in finding them.