No More Dependent Extension Of Stay If The Host Foreigner Has A Retirement Extension Of Stay Permit

[alascal]

Tai people in the region have been given a very bad impression of farangs over the centuries.

The Brits took neighbouring Burma and Malaya, and the French took neighbouring Laos and Cambodia.

The Brits forced themselves upom Siam with the Bowring Treaty.

Their underlying view of farangs is:"Farang's are aggressive and we are not, and so we are vulnerable to them."

We farangs really do have to accept that the praiseworthy view of our nations, with which we were brainwashed in our childhood, is not held by the people of this region.

And we should not be surprised that those of the Tai people who are now living within the nation state of Thailand don't want us here.

Very, VERY good insight.

[thaigene2]

It seems to be that the thais (in power) are terrified of farang 'colonies' becoming properly established. By that I mean having expats who have settled and their farang spouses having kids and those 'pure blood' farang affecting the demographics so that the thais have to deal with multi-culturalisation. They would rather have half-thai children running around so that they will be re-absorbed into the pure thai bloodline later on.

Now to be fair to us lot, I don't think there will ever be enough purely farang married to farang marriages/retirements to even get anywhere near to shifting the demographics in Thailand to a farang bias.

Thailand has far too many thais living in it for that.

But if it were a smaller country like Israel (which does restrict marriage / visas to Palestinians because of this) I would understand it more.

But it could be that the thais have seen the examples of different races moving about and settling into an established country in Europe and don't want that to happen in Thailand?

Yes, if it were half-thai-half-chinese then it's ok..Or half-thai-half-farang (BUT--ONLY as long as the half thai is MALE) then ok...but the traditional thai-farang luek-krueng...forget it. My guess is they could pass a law one day to ban that law allowing thai-farang ownership too. The Thai establishment (you figure out the ethnic dimension, ok?) they hate poor Isaan and Northern women (and their families) and so they will NEVER do anything to empower them..and you ought to know that already - see the latest coup for some resource material! Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me!

[JimsKnight]

It seems to be that the thais (in power) are terrified of farang 'colonies' becoming properly established. By that I mean having expats who have settled and their farang spouses having kids and those 'pure blood' farang affecting the demographics so that the thais have to deal with multi-culturalisation. They would rather have half-thai children running around so that they will be re-absorbed into the pure thai bloodline later on.

Now to be fair to us lot, I don't think there will ever be enough purely farang married to farang marriages/retirements to even get anywhere near to shifting the demographics in Thailand to a farang bias.

Thailand has far too many thais living in it for that.

But if it were a smaller country like Israel (which does restrict marriage / visas to Palestinians because of this) I would understand it more.

But it could be that the thais have seen the examples of different races moving about and settling into an established country in Europe and don't want that to happen in Thailand?

Yes, if it were half-thai-half-chinese then it's ok..Or half-thai-half-farang (BUT--ONLY as long as the half thai is MALE) then ok...but the traditional thai-farang luek-krueng...forget it. My guess is they could pass a law one day to ban that law allowing thai-farang ownership too. The Thai establishment (you figure out the ethnic dimension, ok?) they hate poor Isaan and Northern women (and their families) and so they will NEVER do anything to empower them..and you ought to know that already - see the latest coup for some resource material! Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me!

The Big Gates have closed!

The scary thing is that the western media in all respects, really doesn't give a flying fck about us expats out in LOS! Not the families, not the singles, not the country.

They seem to think that either we're sex obsessed maniacs living in a crazy country or dare devil adventurers who are single and just move on when we please. Thailand is still very much a 'dirty' word to the mainstream public who have their nice little cosy and ordered lives in a welfare state.

The public at large really does not and probably even care to grasp that Thailand was a viable a family retirement place.

If it was spain or part of the EU then fine, something could be done.

But in Asia the western powers have no control. The British empire is a ghost and China's dragons rules the roost.

Right now the flames seem to be pretty malevolent.

This is the wild, wild east folks and we're in uncharted waters. Kinda crazy, kinda cool but overall pretty grim.

You've gotta roll with the punches and either get the hel_l away from it or face it. Either is an honourable thing to do, I wouldn't disrespect anyone for wanting to get the h3ll away from LOS.

Personally my face is in the fire. But all it takes is for them to fck around with the single mans golden ticket (the 12 month Non Imm 'O' visa) and I'll be joining you folks at the airport. Phillipines looks pretty appealing now, ok maybe it's got a sht airport scam, but that won't put me off if Thailand slams the small gates shut!

[phil2]

There is a yawning discrepancy between the financial requirements for a farang husband-Thai wife, and farang-farang couple retirees. What can be the basis for such inconsistency? It almost seems this is a campaign to encourage more farangs to partner with Thais and to bump their foreign spouses

The new policy will probably prompt emigration of retirees to Malaysia...and will certainly impact negatively on local Thai business.

I think you read my mind. Dump yours and take theirs...........but beware because you don't have too long to live

[stingray]

They make things for us very difficult now. But did you ever ask yourself why? We do the same with them, since many years. If Thai People like to go to Europe or USA, it's almost impossibile for them to get a visa. Why don't we let them travel easely? Maybe they would let us stay easly too.

[present]

I don't think that Thai people think like that.After all, politicians are creating wars,not the people from the street.Same with colonialisation. Politicians are hungry for power and money, and they never got enough from both and let the people fight their wars after they brainwashed them by telling them how important it is to protect your country. A part of the farangs are mostly people who worked hard during their life, and try to make something from the time that rest.Who can blame them for that?Certainly not the man of woman on the street.

Tai people in the region have been given a very bad impression of farangs over the centuries.

The Brits took neighbouring Burma and Malaya, and the French took neighbouring Laos and Cambodia.

The Brits forced themselves upom Siam with the Bowring Treaty.

Their underlying view of farangs is:"Farang's are aggressive and we are not, and so we are vulnerable to them."

We farangs really do have to accept that the praiseworthy view of our nations, with which we were brainwashed in our childhood, is not held by the people of this region.

And we should not be surprised that those of the Tai people who are now living within the nation state of Thailand don't want us here.

Very, VERY good insight.

[Jingthing]

Thailand is for Thais...

Spot-on comment. And if a farang wants to live in Thailand long-term, then he needs to be 'thai-a-nised'. If he/she is unwilling to do this, then there is no place in Thailand for him/her.

Simon

This is simply false. It is all about the money. If your money converts into Thai baht, and you have enough of it, and also enough to dance to any new tune surely to come down the road, that is all the bloody Thainess you shall need.

Also, if you become too Thai-a-nised you might learn to live like a regular Thai. We can't have that!

Edited September 1, 2007 by Jingthing

[Filer]

For retirement extensions via the bank count route, will a married (farang+farang) couple now have to have two separate single-name bank accounts, each demonstrating its own 800k?

Or will it be possible to use an existing joint account and simply increase the balance to show 1.6 mn to cover the requirement for two persons' individual extensions - if those two persons are the joint account holders?

Up to now, at least in my area, a joint bank account with 800k has been accepted for a married couple with marriage certificate seeking one retirememt extension + one dependent extension. No problem over the second person being on the account.

I'm about to send in money (seems I have to accept it's now 1.6 mn) to top up our joint account to the necessary level, in advance of our final move-in to TH, and 3 mos ahead of our first applications for 12 m extensions later this year. But I don't want to arrive and find that immigration wants to see separate accounts (and - worst fear - that money transferred out of a joint account will not get credit for the time it's been there already and possibly not recognised as having come cleanly from abroad directly into the new accounts).

Any thoughts or guesses on this, anybody (before we start to see what happens in the imm. offices next week and onwards)?

[Jingthing]

For retirement extensions via the bank count route, will a married (farang+farang) couple now have to have two separate single-name bank accounts, each demonstrating its own 800k?

Or will it be possible to use an existing joint account and simply increase the balance to show 1.6 mn to cover the requirement for two persons' individual extensions - if those two persons are the joint account holders?

Up to now, at least in my area, a joint bank account with 800k has been accepted for a married couple with marriage certificate seeking one retirememt extension + one dependent extension. No problem over the second person being on the account.

I'm about to send in money (seems I have to accept it's now 1.6 mn) to top up our joint account to the necessary level, in advance of our final move-in to TH, and 3 mos ahead of our first applications for 12 m extensions later this year. But I don't want to arrive and find that immigration wants to see separate accounts (and - worst fear - that money transferred out of a joint account will not get credit for the time it's been there already and possibly not recognised as having come cleanly from abroad directly into the new accounts).

Any thoughts or guesses on this, anybody (before we start to see what happens in the imm. offices next week and onwards)?

Great and obvious question. And the obvious answer is that you should try to have separate accounts. Even if joint accounts might be acceptable now, presume the possibility they will have a crackdown against such outrageous abuses (joint accounts) in the future. It pays to be paranoid.

Edited September 1, 2007 by Jingthing

[Sunbelt Asia]

For retirement extensions via the bank count route, will a married (farang+farang) couple now have to have two separate single-name bank accounts, each demonstrating its own 800k?

Or will it be possible to use an existing joint account and simply increase the balance to show 1.6 mn to cover the requirement for two persons' individual extensions - if those two persons are the joint account holders?

Up to now, at least in my area, a joint bank account with 800k has been accepted for a married couple with marriage certificate seeking one retirememt extension + one dependent extension. No problem over the second person being on the account.

I'm about to send in money (seems I have to accept it's now 1.6 mn) to top up our joint account to the necessary level, in advance of our final move-in to TH, and 3 mos ahead of our first applications for 12 m extensions later this year. But I don't want to arrive and find that immigration wants to see separate accounts (and - worst fear - that money transferred out of a joint account will not get credit for the time it's been there already and possibly not recognised as having come cleanly from abroad directly into the new accounts).

Any thoughts or guesses on this, anybody (before we start to see what happens in the imm. offices next week and onwards)?

This has been a issue the past week. They want to see separate accounts with proof the money came from overseas (3 months before the application). Our lawyers have been able to get a extension with a joint bank account but they had to jump in the hoops of fire to get it done. Just like the ocean which has different moods so does Thai immigration with interpretation of rules.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[MekhongKurt]

This story sure caught me entirely out of left field -- and I have a friend who is a senior sergeant at Immigration Headquarters in Bangkok. (Maybe he caught caught off-guard as well.)

Someone made the point this is the Thais' country so they can do what they wish, and that of course is true. Still, it would be interesting to know what led to the decision. The authorities certainly appear to be continuing to encourage foreign tourists and foreign investors (if the latter group to a lesser degree than before), so it's puzzling why retirees in particular have had the bar raised. It's especially puzzling given reverse trends in some other regional countries; Cambodia and Malaysia spring readily to mind, and I recently heard that Singapore is easing up on various immigration requirements (though I haven't confirmed that). I was already musing on the possibility of basing myself elsewhere but returning here frequently. I'l see how things wash out, and if there is no change in matters as they've been reported, then I'll move from musing to seriously investigating.

A number of posters have commented they aren't affected by this particular change but fear future changes may ensnare them as well.

I sure do feel for those who *are* directly affected and may, in some cases, HAVE to leave.

[englishoak]

Not being paranoid for a moment ok? Could it be this is'nt about western farang at all, but more aimed at stopping other Asian retirees setting up in Thailand. IE Korean, Chinese, Malay, Japanese etc. After all there will probably be far more of those expats moving to the area than farang as time goes on.

It does seem the current ruling elite have no intention of sharing even a little bit of the pie. Anyone who knows any Thai-Chinese will know the immediate family and power/money is the only thing that matters and have no interest whatsoever if it is right/good for the country or it's people at all.

It reminds me of Europe a couple of hundred years ago when the ruling elite desperately tried to keep all the wealth and control to themselves. It did'nt last and it won't work here either but it may take time.

Where the rest of Asia is growing up, adjusting to and welcoming the changing demographics of a global human migration and economics, Thailand is fast annexing themselves as a backward moving society with a definate growing Xenophobic paranoia.

It seems at the moment Thialands future history will be the country that could have become an Asian Tiger but blew it by being introverted, thinking small and having no vision or understanding of the changing world.

A shame but som nam naa !

Edited September 1, 2007 by englishoak

[wpcoe]

Since I'm not the marrying kind, I never really paid attention to the married-to-Thai-wife visa, but is it not correct that a farang married to a Thai only needs to show B40,000/month income?

But a farang-farang married retired couple now needs to show B130,000, even though they are probably without the expenses of raising a family?

B40,000 vs B130,000 each month???

[englishoak]

B40,000 vs B130,000 each month???

yup

[Ollie]

B40,000 vs B130,000 each month???

yup

Wow! I reached the end, thats a lot of (depressing) reading!!

Any views on a political "good guy/bad guy" scenario here? The baddies exit stage left and the goodies come in stage right? The baddies never really leave the scene, but the goodies have all the good news, oppressive rules reversed etc. Isn't democracy wonderful!

Or do I need to take my western hat off?

Been talking about this with my Thai wife today/tonight here in the UK (she's off to bed now, just as match of the day is about to start ) - she seemed surprised to say the least - doubt that will make a difference.

[tropo]

.

If you are applying for the extension of stay based on retirement. You now need to provide a map from Immigration to your house.

Typical third world!

It's definitely not typical. I'd venture to say it's totally unique.

[tc101]

I am reading this in the USA. I'm just thinking about maybe retiring to Thailand. I am very confused by all of this. What is your theory about what the Thai government is trying to do? Do they want people to retire there or not? What are the reasons for not wanting people to retire there? I am looking for information.

[the gent]

It would be refreshing to get some sort of policy explanation from the government as to why they have introduced this new measure at this stage without any warning but in its absence I suppose the scarcely repressed hysteria explicit in this thread is likely to persist.

All that has been introduced is a relatively modest refinement to the requirements governing retirees and their foreign spouses.I shouldn't imagine for one moment that those in that category will be greatly affected, apart from the logistical inconvenience brought on by the inept short notice of its introduction, since by definition they are probably long term expatriates of whatever kind enjoying realistic incomes and not fragile pensioners hanging on by their fingernails.

Nevertheless, posters from all quarters are divining some sort of nationalistic conspiracy mounted by the Thai in an attempt to rid themselves of the evil farang. Quite potty really, particularly when one considers that what passes for a government is in fact a loose collection of vested interests jockeying for position united in one purpose, and one purpose only, the protection of those interests. Frankly,they are incapable of structuring a coherent policy on anything very much least of all some sort of financial purge aimed at a bunch of expats wittering on about how they have been such dutiful guests and consequently are deserving of much better treatment.

The paranoid may well see this as the writing on the wall but to anyone else with any perspective it's just another step on the way and one to be negotiated realistically.

[englishoak]

What is your theory about what the Thai government is trying to do? Do they want people to retire there or not? What are the reasons for not wanting people to retire there?

1. Make as much money out of everyone as possible, control everything and everyone whilst giving 0 security, stability.

2. Yes and No. Your money yes, you No.

3. Paranoia, control, power & wealth they quite simply want all the cake and to eat it

[hgma]

I 53 retirement visa

son dutchborn in thailand dependent visa on house registration(goes to thai school)

wife lao 30 depended visa on houseregistration

they have to leave the country??????????

really?????

hgma

As of Sept 1st, no more dependent extension of stay permits will be issued if the foreigner has a extension of stay based on retirement. This includes any “grandfather” cases where the dependent applicant had the extension of stay before Sept 1st 2007.

Not being affected myself, I think that will be very bad news for many families currently living in Thailand. I can understand their decision to not accept new applications, but virtually kicking out those who are currently living here under the regulations they made is very very bad.

[englishoak]

The paranoid may well see this as the writing on the wall but to anyone else with any perspective it's just another step on the way and one to be negotiated realistically

I think the one important thing about this directive is the Grandfather law will not be applied. Everything else is indeed just a step along the way.

Take the Grandfather law out and all expets have 0 security for any future changes, they have done it once and it will become easier the 2nd time no question. Now i'm sure you have xxxx llions so your ok jack, for now. However most retirees rarely have unlimited funds and will no longer be able to plan a secure retirement in Thailand. I think thats pretty sad to say the least.

As for the speed of this law being enforced that is just draconian and absolutely ridiculous.

Edited September 1, 2007 by englishoak

[farang prince]

It would be refreshing to get some sort of policy explanation from the government as to why they have introduced this new measure at this stage without any warning but in its absence I suppose the scarcely repressed hysteria explicit in this thread is likely to persist.

All that has been introduced is a relatively modest refinement to the requirements governing retirees and their foreign spouses.I shouldn't imagine for one moment that those in that category will be greatly affected, apart from the logistical inconvenience brought on by the inept short notice of its introduction, since by definition they are probably long term expatriates of whatever kind enjoying realistic incomes and not fragile pensioners hanging on by their fingernails. Nevertheless, posters from all quarters are divining some sort of nationalistic conspiracy mounted by the Thai in an attempt to rid themselves of the evil farang. Quite potty really, particularly when one considers that what passes for a government is in fact a loose collection of vested interests jockeying for position united in one purpose, and one purpose only, the protection of those interests. Frankly,they are incapable of structuring a coherent policy on anything very much least of all some sort of financial purge aimed at a bunch of expats wittering on about how they have been such dutiful guests and consequently are deserving of much better treatment.

The paranoid may well see this as the writing on the wall but to anyone else with any perspective it's just another step on the way and one to be negotiated realistically.

Great Gent. Send me $25,000 USD to my bank account tomorrow. That is just a modest amount and comparable to what the Thai government wants farang/farang couples to fork up. You won't be "greatly affected" will you?

Edited September 1, 2007 by farang prince

[farang prince]

And still no word in The Nation or The Bangkok Post. Why?

[englishoak]

If it was'nt Sunbelt as the OP i'd say it was a wind up

[farang prince]

If it was'nt Sunbelt as the OP i'd say it was a wind up

My feelings exactly.

[Maestro]

I 53 retirement visa

son dutchborn in thailand dependent visa on house registration(goes to thai school)

wife lao 30 depended visa on houseregistration

they have to leave the country??????????

From what I know so far about the new National Police Order that has yet to be published in the Royal Gazette but took effect on September 1, 2007 your situation is as follows:

1. Your son can continue to get an extension as your dependent

2. When your wife’s current extension as your dependent expires, she can no longer get an extension as your dependent. She will have to leave the country and get a new visa, eg a non-immigrant visa category O for the purpose of visiting family.

This evaluation is based on the advance information about the new Police Order Sunbelt Asia has published in this thread.

Please wait for the publication of the new order, expected within the next eight days, to see if the requirements regarding your wife are changed by then. (Sunbelt indicated that there is little hope for that)

--

Maestro

[Ollie]

It would be refreshing to get some sort of policy explanation from the government as to why they have introduced this new measure at this stage without any warning but in its absence I suppose the scarcely repressed hysteria explicit in this thread is likely to persist.

All that has been introduced is a relatively modest refinement to the requirements governing retirees and their foreign spouses.I shouldn't imagine for one moment that those in that category will be greatly affected, apart from the logistical inconvenience brought on by the inept short notice of its introduction, since by definition they are probably long term expatriates of whatever kind enjoying realistic incomes and not fragile pensioners hanging on by their fingernails.

Nevertheless, posters from all quarters are divining some sort of nationalistic conspiracy mounted by the Thai in an attempt to rid themselves of the evil farang. Quite potty really, particularly when one considers that what passes for a government is in fact a loose collection of vested interests jockeying for position united in one purpose, and one purpose only, the protection of those interests. Frankly,they are incapable of structuring a coherent policy on anything very much least of all some sort of financial purge aimed at a bunch of expats wittering on about how they have been such dutiful guests and consequently are deserving of much better treatment.

The paranoid may well see this as the writing on the wall but to anyone else with any perspective it's just another step on the way and one to be negotiated realistically.

Patronising & smug does not = nice.

[chiang mai]

800,000 a year is 66,666 baht a month. Did they pick that number purely by coincidence or are they trying to tell us something.

[fruittbatt]

It would be refreshing to get some sort of policy explanation from the government as to why they have introduced this new measure at this stage without any warning but in its absence I suppose the scarcely repressed hysteria explicit in this thread is likely to persist.

All that has been introduced is a relatively modest refinement to the requirements governing retirees and their foreign spouses.I shouldn't imagine for one moment that those in that category will be greatly affected, apart from the logistical inconvenience brought on by the inept short notice of its introduction, since by definition they are probably long term expatriates of whatever kind enjoying realistic incomes and not fragile pensioners hanging on by their fingernails.

Nevertheless, posters from all quarters are divining some sort of nationalistic conspiracy mounted by the Thai in an attempt to rid themselves of the evil farang. Quite potty really, particularly when one considers that what passes for a government is in fact a loose collection of vested interests jockeying for position united in one purpose, and one purpose only, the protection of those interests. Frankly,they are incapable of structuring a coherent policy on anything very much least of all some sort of financial purge aimed at a bunch of expats wittering on about how they have been such dutiful guests and consequently are deserving of much better treatment.

The paranoid may well see this as the writing on the wall but to anyone else with any perspective it's just another step on the way and one to be negotiated realistically.

Doubling the financial requirements for a couple's retirement visa is hardly a "modest refinement", especially in terms of Thai wages, cost of living here and so on. Bend your imagination for a moment, if you will, to consider why many foreign retirees have chosen to live in Thailand. The principal reason is probably their ability to live well and cheaply in a congenial country, rather than scratching out a living in their home countries and working until they are 70-75. Many have invested modest savings, given themselves an annual "salary" to cover the cost of living in Thailand, and planned their financial lives so that they can live here for the duration. These people's money feeds all sorts of Thai businesses and contributes to employment here. Landlords, condo management, restaurants, small shops, food courts, laundries, maid services, transport operators to name a few.

It should be quite obvious from what has already been written in this thread that many people are affected to the point that they will have to seek cheaper host countries. You might spare a compassionate thought for their dilemma...upheaval, loss of assets, physical effort of moving countries at an advanced age, their emotional investment in a country they now realise values them only as disposable commodities. Your supercilious attitude is a further slap in the face to those affected by these laws. Shame!

[jas007]

This new change doesn't affect me, as I'm a single retiree. But the change is enough to make one wonder: what's next? From here forward I simply can't take the process too seriously. They seem to be making changes up on a whim. One thing's for sure: no condo purchase for me. I'll continue to rent.

J