No More Dependent Extension Of Stay If The Host Foreigner Has A Retirement Extension Of Stay Permit

[ElectricNorth]

This does not affecr me personally but I do feel for all those affected who have put time, effort and money into Thailand and into personal relationships, only to be kicked in the teeth

[Jingthing]

This kind of thing has become predictable. The writing is on the wall in big uppercase red letters now. These changes come without proper warning, and now without humane grandfathering. The message again if you haven't already got it is: do not feel too comfortable, do not feel too welcome, do not think that you won't be next. This is nothing new at all to those of us who have been paying attention rather than making up excuses as to why the latest class of people to be kicked out are undesirable scum.

That said, I can't really assert that Thailand doesn't have to right to require both non-Thai spouses to qualify separately. I think some other countries already do that for their retirement programs. Heck, they don't need to offer a retirement visa program at all, most countries in the world do not. I can and do fault the short warning and lack of grandfathering. That is simply inhumane.

As far as the map is concerned, that is relatively trivial.

Alot of people have mentioned Malaysia as an alternative. You might also want to consider the Philippines which has recently radically liberalized their lifetime retirement program (no annual extensions) by radically lowering the financial requirements. Now, that is the kind of welcome we like to see. Ecuador also is becoming alot more popular, has low requirements, an investment option, and for Americans it is dollarized. Other countries in the world are courting us with alluring offers, while Thailand is tightening the screws. Before long, those left might self select as a kind of masochists. Personally, I ain't leaving until forced to though.

Edited September 1, 2007 by Jingthing

[grahamhc]

How ridiculous is this? Immigration cant read an address? If someone has a detailed map of my moo ban...please let me know.......I've never found one.

Will a sketch suffice?

Seriously...is this a joke?

How about a printout from Google Earth? I used that when I wanted an AirCon installed. They thought it was wonderful. I print out the map and colour in the route with a highlighter pen.

This map thing is almost as silly at a photo of your front door in an condo block for a work permit.

[Mid]

We'd miss pork and ham a lot

Penang ........

[finnomick]

Thailand for Thai's , this is what they want. The rich do not want the poor ( the majority ) to gain any wealth thereby encroaching upon their territory. As a retiree I must have a minimum of 800,000 baht in a bank account in Thailand ( not ANY country like the Thai consulate in Hull will tell you ). Is this figure based on the minimum the average Thai would need to exist on for a year ? I don't think so. This figure is purely arbitory, because you cannot use any of it for at least the three months running up to your annual visa renewal, so in effect, you need far more in your bank account than 800,000 baht. So many people I know are now selling up and moving to other, more welcoming asian countries -- and taking all their money with them. Here in Pattaya, over the next 10 years, we were forecasting a significant boom with all waterfront land as far as Jomtien already bought up by property speculators wishing to attract the wealthier foreigner. A second marina to be built, numerous luxury condo blocks etc., but I think we'll end up having a waterfront landscape similar to Bangkok where so many buildings have been left unfinished because there is no-one here to buy them -- an eyesore on the landscape. And what is to become of all the companies and workers who rely on the steady income generated by us old farts ? This country is fast changing from the land of smiles to the land of sore eyes. What a shame..........

[tim77]

This kind of thing has become predictable. The writing is on the wall in big uppercase red letters now. These changes come without proper warning, and now without humane grandfathering. The message again if you haven't already got it is: do not feel too comfortable, do not feel too welcome, do not think that you won't be next. This is nothing new at all to those of us who have been paying attention rather than making up excuses as to why the latest class of people to be kicked out are undesirable scum.

That said, I can't really assert that Thailand doesn't have to right to require both non-Thai spouses to qualify separately. I think some other countries already do that for their retirement programs. Heck, they don't need to offer a retirement visa program at all, most countries in the world do not. I can and do fault the short warning and lack of grandfathering. That is simply inhumane.

As far as the map is concerned, that is relatively trivial.

Sadly you are very correct about the "writing on the wall". This is a racial backlash against foreigners.

In your second paragraph in which you discuss Thailand's "right to require. . .", may I just note that in my mind there is a big difference in Thailand having the "power" and Thailand having the "right". I can not dispute that Thailand has the "power" to change its visa rules in whatever capricious way Thailand wants . . .but Thailand has no "right" to do so.

[Maigo6]

Maybe the Thai Immigration Policy Makers read this site.

Edited September 1, 2007 by Maigo6

[R123]

According to the OP, applicable to all retirees applying for an extension from 1st September(today):

"you now need to provide a map from immigration to your house"

Reading those words carefully, what does it mean?

Immigration gives a map to you and u indicate where u live on it?

Or u hand write a map in Thai and indicate on it where u live?

Or simply use a tourist type brochure map presumably with the Thai language on it and give them them with a cross on the map showing where you stay?

Can someone explain?

[dkg1960]

If you are applying for the extension of stay based on retirement. You now need to provide a map from Immigration to your house.

How ridiculous is this? Immigration cant read an address? If someone has a detailed map of my moo ban...please let me know.......I've never found one.

Will a sketch suffice?

Seriously...is this a joke?

Pumpuiman if you download "google earth" to your computer you can actually zoom in to your local area and print this off marking on the map your actual house this is what i did to obtain the dependent visa for myself as i have a Thai wife and 2 daughters - the immigration dept accepted this. Hope this assists you.

[wolfmanjack]

Does anyone on this board honestly think that the Thais have less of a right to control who comes and stays in Thailand than all the countries that the winging and moaning people on this forum come from ????

We all agree that they have every right to determine who lives here just like we have every right to bitch about it.

Look at the retirement/residence options that the UK, Western Europe etc. provide for non EU/UK residents - I am Australian and come here two weeks per month for business. I have NO desire to live here long term as I would rather live in Oz.

In case you have not noticed but this is thailand not the UK or USA both of which every poor person in the world would flock to if the visa regulations allowed it. The average income of the westerners wanting to reside in thailand is far beyond the average income in thailand. This is not the case for the people that are trying to immigrate to the USA or UK.

Thailand is spending billions of baht to try and get foreigners to bring their money into thailand through tourism when they already have a huge source of foreign income from expats. Now they are slowly strangling the goose that laid the golden egg.

However I know they are embarrassed about the faring enclaves in Pattaya and other such places and don't really put such developments in the "desirable" category.

If they were so embarrassed about Pattaya, Patpong and Soi Nana it would be very easy to close the embarrassing businesses down since they are engaging in illegal activity. Obviously they are not as embarrassed by Pattaya as they are of the retirees. Think about it. How many retirees where both the husband and wife are falang would live in Pattaya?

The Thais have much bigger problems than worrying about the effect of their immigration policies on the farang "retirement" population (no one should be retired at 50!!) eg. poverty in the NE, AIDS, insurgency in the south, lack of a democracy etc. etc.

Then why aren't they taking care of these problems instead of bothering the falang population ??? Lowering the retirement requirements for those wanting to live in poor communities in Isaan would go a long ways toward bringing needed jobs to those areas.

Isn't it just Western arrogance that we should assume that The Thais care about the ups and downs of westerners trying to stay here?

As I said everything the government does implies that at least one person in the government cares about the ups and downs of the westerners trying to live here or they would not be changing the laws all of the time.

Also the amount of moaning about Thailand I see on this board makes me wonder that why people want to stay at all. Maybe that should all go back to "Sunny" England or wherever they come from.

If you just sit quietly by then you are agreeing with what they are doing by default. We want to live here and that is why we are complaining. If we did not care then we would just up and leave with no comment.

[Johpa]

Tai people in the region have been given a very bad impression of farangs over the centuries.

And we should not be surprised that those of the Tai people who are now living within the nation state of Thailand don't want us here.

Its THAI and not Tai

The Tai were an ethnic group who were driven out of southern China a long time ago and settled in among other places the country which we now know as Thailand

Lets say a huge ethnic group. At least thats what the linguistics are telling us. I'll just give it a guess, about 200 languages still alive, but not for long.

Tai is the accepted general term for all the peoples whose ancestors spoke Tai languages such as Lao, Shan, Dai, Kham Muang, Thai, etc. These peoples also tend to have certain shared cultural patterns such as shared beliefs (phii & kwaan) and shared artifacts such as basic house architecture. The term also includes the tribal Tai groups in Vietnam and in Southern China. Thai, on the other hand, refers to a specific nationality, people who hold a Thai passport or who who once held Thai citizenship or are descendants of Thai citizens.

Those who make these new immigration rules for Thailand tend to be Thai citizens but are not usually of Tai ancestry, more often being of Chinese ancestry. For the most part, they don't like white people. And as China ascends in power on the international stage, there will slowly be increased pressure over time to rid the country of the gwailo, the white devils.

China (the PRC) has completely absorbed Tibet via military conquest. They are now working on absorbing Burma via economic conquest. Ridding Thailand over the coming decades of Farangs who might be sympathetic towards the people of Tai ancestry, just as they tend to be sympathetic to the hapless people of Tibetan ancestry, is an inevitable outcome of this slow process of Chinese hegemony in Southeast Asia.

If you happen to be a Farang like me, this trend is not your friend.

[Hollywood]

How ridiculous is this? Immigration cant read an address? If someone has a detailed map of my moo ban...please let me know.......I've never found one.

Will a sketch suffice?

Seriously...is this a joke?

How about a printout from Google Earth? I used that when I wanted an AirCon installed. They thought it was wonderful. I print out the map and colour in the route with a highlighter pen.

This map thing is almost as silly at a photo of your front door in an condo block for a work permit.

Or do a mapquest

[farang prince]

Why are we surprised? Over the past year, we have seen a series of anti-foreign measures ranging from visa issues to business issues. I anticipate that this trend is going to continue. For those posters who think that this is going to blow over, I would suggest that you find a comfortable position in which you can bend over and grab your ankles. I truly feel sorry for those ex-pats who moved to Thailand with their families with the assurances that if they followed the rules, they would be able to remain in LOS. Now the rules have changed and it will be devastating for a great many good people. The moral of the story? Never trust any government...especially this one.

[kurtgruen]

I think the main thing is not to put all of our eggs in one basket.

This legistlation doesn't affect me, but the next one might.

I always suggest to new people coming over here to live, to keep some investments and a good source of income back home, if they are able to.

For the most part, I feel quite welcome in Thailand. I enjoy it's freedoms and way of life enough to keep jumping through hoops, in order to stay here, if I have to.

Of course, I agree, there comes a point, when enough will be enough.

I hope that this legistlation will not get enforced, because of the hardships it will bring to many foreign families.

[IAMSOBAD]

Everyone stop writing here and start writing to every news agency...CNN...BBC....THE NATION....BANGKOK POST etc. and also all embassies for some coverage of this. We need to step up and be heard. Please help.

[wolfmanjack]

In case you sages didn't know, Thailand's immigration and labour laws are ALREADY DIFFERENT for different nationalities (for example, Chinese only get 15 days VOA) so if their target were the Chinese they could have easily applied those laws only to the Chinese...

Not to mention that the immigration requirement for an extension to the "B" visa have a different income requirement for the various nationalities. If they were targeting the chinese and Indians then they would raise their income requirements to equal the USA. As I see it they are targeting Australia, Canada, Europe, Japan, USA since these are the countries in the top income required bracket.

It would be easy to keep out the chinese by retirees by using the same system for the retirement visa. No great leap in logic here.

[PeaceBlondie]

The moral of the story? Never trust any government...especially this one.

We agree, farang prince. And both of us are retired military and retired civil servants!!

One more brick in the wall on which is scrawled in big, red capital letters:

FARANG GO HOME!!

[tim77]

The moral of the story? Never trust any government...especially this one.

We agree, farang prince. And both of us are retired military and retired civil servants!!

One more brick in the wall on which is scrawled in big, red capital letters:

FARANG GO HOME!!

and this message of hate is not coming from the Thai people in general . . . it is coming from the Thai elite . . .

[Jingthing]

Think of the bright side! Smile! Be happy!

It must be really good sport to come up with these brainiac tweaks and then watch us squawk like headless chickens.

Edited September 1, 2007 by Jingthing

[otton]

Not to mention that the immigration requirement for an extension to the "B" visa have a different income requirement for the various nationalities. If they were targeting the chinese and Indians then they would raise their income requirements to equal the USA. As I see it they are targeting Australia, Canada, Europe, Japan, USA since these are the countries in the top income required bracket.

And that's just part of what I was hinting at when I mentioned labour laws...

As requirements like these clearly show, they have no qualms at all about disciminating a nationality over the other. So applying this new no dependent extension of stay rule to whomever they perceive as the problem would just come natural to them.

It would be easy to keep out the chinese by retirees by using the same system for the retirement visa. No great leap in logic here.

Apparently, the logic employed by some of these "sages" works in very different ways...

New regs like this one (and no more supporting Thai children, no more 400k in the bank for spouses of Thai citizens, no more investment visas etc etc etc) scream, like PeaceBlondie has just written: FARANGS GO HOME!

[thaigene2]

Guess its time to look for a house in the U.S

Well at least you can own one there - as oppsoed to here. And hey, I hear the're getting cheaper by the day!

[thaigene2]

The moral of the story? Never trust any government...especially this one.

We agree, farang prince. And both of us are retired military and retired civil servants!!

One more brick in the wall on which is scrawled in big, red capital letters:

FARANG GO HOME!!

and this message of hate is not coming from the Thai people in general . . . it is coming from the Thai elite . . .

As always..

[retiredusn]

Everyone stop writing here and start writing to every news agency...CNN...BBC....THE NATION....BANGKOK POST etc. and also all embassies for some coverage of this. We need to step up and be heard. Please help.

Just sent email to CNN asia and BBC in addition to the US embassey requesting news coverage and questions of "WHY" the change without any advance notification. It will financially break some folks

[exexpat]

It seems this kind of tightening of regulations against foreigners never stops.  I guess we are the weakest link....GOODBYE.

[otton]

and this message of hate is not coming from the Thai people in general . . . it is coming from the Thai elite . . .

I don't share this view promoted by so many here.

Do you guys really believe that the general Thai public would look favorably at a relaxation of visa, work and immigration laws for the farangs?

Thai politicians seen to have a tough stance against foreigners APPEAL the electorate, NOT put them off...

How many Thais do you guys know who think it's unfair and unjust that Thais in farangland can own land and houses, work any job and easily get PR and citizenship when farangs can't do the same in their THAIland?

[Jingthing]

Everyone stop writing here and start writing to every news agency...CNN...BBC....THE NATION....BANGKOK POST etc. and also all embassies for some coverage of this. We need to step up and be heard. Please help.

Just sent email to CNN asia and BBC in addition to the US embassey requesting news coverage and questions of "WHY" the change without any advance notification. It will financially break some folks

I agree that the news part is the lack of notice and grandfathering, not the new rule itself.

To those who are trying to compare Thailand retirement visas to the US and Canada, just stop it. The US and Canada don't offer retirement visas, Thailand does because Thailand is in the economic class of countries that benefit from expat retirees. Compare Thailand to Malaysia, the Philippines, Mexico, Brazil, and Morocco, not the US and Canada.

[Harry2]

"Affected" is too mild a word for me and my husband. We do the retirement/dependent visa thing. Our visas expire in two weeks. We HAD all our paperwork in order to extend another year. Now? It looks like Malaysia. Even if our local office isn't up on the rules and gives it to us (going in Monday) we will only use the time to make a more leisurely move. It's an event we never hoped to experience, but we did see the potential and laid basic plans.

We're aware of the ramifications of Islamic law. We'd miss pork and ham a lot, and that's about the only negative effect it would have on us. I expect a trip to Malaysia will be on the calendar very soon.

Look at the bright side. Malaysia has Ikea, and speaks English, and lets you import your car and household goods duty-free if you get that 10-year MM2H visa. For which we do qualify.

If Islamic Law just affected pork & ham - no problem - but it affects far more than that.

Article today suggests they intend to rip up secular law & replace with sharia:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...1/wmalay101.xml

[tim77]

and this message of hate is not coming from the Thai people in general . . . it is coming from the Thai elite . . .

I don't share this view promoted by so many here.

Do you guys really believe that the general Thai public would look favorably at a relaxation of visa, work and immigration laws for the farangs?

Thai politicians seen to have a tough stance against foreigners APPEAL the electorate, NOT put them off...

How many Thais do you guys know who think it's unfair and unjust that Thais in farangland can own land and houses, work any job and easily get PR and citizenship when farangs can't do the same in their THAIland?

Trust me (and think about it a bit) . . .

It is not the rice farmer . . . or the shop owner . . . or the truck driver . . . or the office worker . . . who has the power to issue visa changes , make changes to the FBA, etc. . .

It is the rice farmer, the shop owner, the truck driver, the office worker who are being pander to.

[Artamus]

No More Dependent Extension Of Stay If The Host Foreigner Has A Retirement Extension Of Stay Permit

and

Map required

..... You now need to provide a map from Immigration to your house.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

I read this as instructing immigration to exit their office, turn left, catch the No. 5 bus, get off at 20th stop, walk three blocks, turn left, 3rd house on the right...... That way they might find it......

[jinjok]

only a few of you guys have got this sorted...

while it surely impacts all spouses (and kids) w/o income it is aimed at the wifey from phils or cambo. -which makes it as much or more xenophobic... if youre going to marry from the third world and want to live in thailand, we insist you will marry a thai.

thais have always been a churlish, petulant people. ask any farang with a sucessful business located near unsucessful thai neighbors.

ps: all these new laws and nonsense - juat another reason ive never bothered with the O visa.

Edited September 1, 2007 by jinjok