No More Dependent Extension Of Stay If The Host Foreigner Has A Retirement Extension Of Stay Permit

[tijnebijn]

It all could be like that people.

But I want to remind you , that sometimes things are not like how they seem.

I am sure that the most of us have enough experience in life to acknowledge that .

And one more thing , even if it seems like that , so long we all say doom about Thailand and what might happen next ,

in my view these thoughts , because we do it massively together , makes that possible thought stronger to occur.

Sounds strange maybe , but it really works like that.

[Felt 35]

My two cents but hardly worth that in todays market.

We live in Thailand. Stop for a moment and get into that fact.

A tropical paradise in asia, wonderful food, wonderful weather, charming people. A third world country with Asian values and conduct. A third world country with ruling class that often wears uniforms, sometimes business suits. Look back into the history of Japan, China, Korea, India and come to terms with their values and interests, decidedly different than the west.

Now, knowing how things can change with little regard for the population, think of Cambodia, think of Burma, think of the great leap forward, just think, you have to come to terms with how things can and do operate here.

They are entirely within their rights to change things at a moments notice. The rule of law and consistency in actions have no value here. Come on peanut gallery, lets have some disagreement on this one. We live in a land entirely at the whim of the ruling class, and they are petty rulers at the best of times. These new immigration rules could be the result of one general losing a bet on the 18 green to a single obnoxious farang, or it could be a trend in the new Thailand coming. The Thailand of sufficiency and cultural purity. We in the peanut gallery will never know, heck, 90% of those who wield power here dont know.

Things are changing, they always do. We who are worldly, who choose to live here, know that our grip and welcome are transitory, its not our home, not our people, not our culture. So we never invest more than we can walk away from, we stay ready for the knock on the door at night, which has come for billions throughout history and has yet to be quieted. When the time comes, we will have to walk. On september 1, many thousands in thailand got their walking papers, ours will come, are you prepared?

The Thai economy is under attack from both the West and China, their fragile hold on prosperity is facing a terrible storm that they are unable to unwilling to divert. There is a pending succession in the Royal family that could tear the fabric and soul of the Thai people. The south is a smoldering fire that could quickly get out of hand and has only grown with time.The military have taken control and while elections may take place, they will remain firmly in power behind the curtain. Ask yourself how the military mind intends on coping with these overwhelming problems in a country that has no systems or procedures or rule of law.

I dont know what the probabilities are that those of us who can stay will be able to stay. I dont know who is next or why. I dont know the specific reasons or mentality in doing what they are doing. I dont really need to.

I do know that the trends are against us. That we all need to be prepared to leave eventually. I do know that things change, and in particular, they change a lot in Thailand, so I am not running to the airport with my world goods in a backpack anytime soon. In the meantime, I am going to enjoy my time in this wonderful country.

[yoshiwara]

I knew something was afoot when the inspectors were recently sent out to enforce a cover-up in the go-go bars...anyway the new rules should clear out some of the unnecessary couples from clogging up Walking Street. Anyway 1.6 million baht, what's that? tea money....or maybe the price of an empty bar off the main drag....

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

I agree that the bosses in Bangkok don't appreciate how much outside money is pumped in to the Thai economy

by resident farang. though difficult to gauge, I think it's a bigger amount than anyone realizes. I've said this before, and I challenge anyone to prove me wrong: resident farang bring in more outside revenue to Thailand than any Thai industry - including rice, rubber, clothing, ....you name it.

We are clearly an economic benefit. I don't think they are so stupid that they don't know that. The Philippines has determined that each retired expat creates four local jobs, not literally by hiring them, but by the recycling of the money they bring in. The Philippines and Thailand are at similar economic levels, not exactly, but similar. Why wouldn't the exact same benefit work in Thailand? I think it does. So there is more to it than that they don't realize the benefit. Maybe the X word.

Look up the x word on Wikipedia. I nearly fell out of my chair when I saw it.

[Naam]

2 Separate bank accounts with 1.6m Baht between the pair of them. It seems this is more about tying more of a farang's dosh up. It's do-able if you have the dosh, and can afford losing that much interest a year.

the total amount is not really for a year as the money can be spent after the extension has been granted. anyway, it's a bitter pill and probably a serious hurdle for a number of retirees.

but i still can't believe that a wife who does not qualify age wise for the retiree status will have to do visa runs. for once it turns out that i am lucky that my old lady is older than 50.

[JimmyCA]

Seems possible if the retiree has a young non-thai wife he is liss likely to be paying enough homage to certain of thailands key industries to satisify the powere that be.

[otton]

yes you can if you carry USD.

Then (it was a genuine question as I have never had the need to travel with tens of thousands of dollars in a suitcase ) "fresh founds" wouldn't be a real problem just the umpteenth inconvenicence...

i don't see a problem as me and my wife are the sole proprietors of three different companies which we can instruct to pay us any "salary" required. i also don't think that the bar will be raised ever that high that the effects outweigh the benefits of not paying any tax on my worldwide income.

Is sounds like you have quite a bit of money AND a non-Thai wife... what are you doing in Thailand?!?

Assuming one is not interested in any of the countless forms of P4P available in Thailand, I can think of many other places where I would rather retire with my wife if I had "three different companies which I can instruct to pay me any salary required"

[mitrapaap]

Look folks, get one thing straight.

They don't care about foreigners - in fact many derive a diverse pleasure from pissing us off.

They don't care about the money we bring. They've all got their own personal fortunes and they couldn't give two hoots what happens to the Thai economy.

If every retired farang was kicked out of Thailand tomorrow, it would take years, if ever, for it to have even the slightest effect on the Thai economy.

Get real - they don't want you here, and you aint as important to Thailand as you think you are.

Sorry, all you dreamers out there....

I agree with you Mobi. We have far far less impact on the economy than many people on here think.

I agree that the bosses in Bangkok don't appreciate how much outside money is pumped in to the Thai economy

by resident farang. though difficult to gauge, I think it's a bigger amount than anyone realizes. I've said this before, and I challenge anyone to prove me wrong: resident farang bring in more outside revenue to Thailand than any Thai industry - including rice, rubber, clothing, ....you name it.

The major portion of farang money is undocumented. It goes towards dowries and supporting girlfriend's/wives' families. Large potions also go to all manner of other Thai products and services, from construction, land acquisition, biz start-ups, appliances, vehicles, entertainment, ad infinitum.

Already many Thai vendors are feeling the effects of less farang money - and it's guaranteed to get worse if such ridiculous mean-spirited laws get enacted.

How many Thai people in Thailand? 60 million? 80 million? and how many farangs in Thailand? I really don't know, but if you tell me the figure I'll tell you how neglectable you and me and all the other farangs are for the Thai economy.

[petervanner]

read this this morning, sold house with two children' born in Thailand in December 1996 to Thai wife. What a shock it was to me I have to change my retirement plans, I'm 61 no probleme for me at this time' BUT IT WILL be.

Now I have to take my 12mil baht some place else but can anybody help, thinking the philippines.

The government should grow up, sorry to all those expats that have worked hard all the working life to end up in this situation.

It will change I'm sure but I can't take the chance and watch it anymore. good luck to everybody in Thailand.

[Jingthing]

It all could be like that people.

But I want to remind you , that sometimes things are not like how they seem.

I am sure that the most of us have enough experience in life to acknowledge that .

And one more thing , even if it seems like that , so long we all say doom about Thailand and what might happen next ,

in my view these thoughts , because we do it massively together , makes that possible thought stronger to occur.

Sounds strange maybe , but it really works like that.

Run! New age thinker! Possible scientoligist! Be afraid! Be VERY afraid!

[champagne charlie]

I agree that if you think the Thais care about the farang long-stay/retirees over here you're sadly mistaken. The current reality and future is all about short term tourists. They want us to come here, spend lots of money and go home. "Thailand is for Thais," as many Thais love to say.

I think we're witnessing a closing of a frontier, and at the same time a re-definition and restructuring of mass tourism. It's getting harder to find those out-of-way places that were not so uncommon just a few short years ago. Resorts are being built at breakneck speed, and prices are steeply on the rise. Vast new tourism markets have been opened up - especially for tourists from China, India and Russia.

In short, Thailand is betting on short-term tourism, and letting the long-stayers go. I don't like it, but I can understand this direction. On a recent visit to Ko Chang, I was shocked about how much development had occurred there since my first visit 5 years ago. It struck me that people will continue to visit beach areas no matter how over-developed and crowded they are. This is what they're betting on.

[farang prince]

I agree that if you think the Thais care about the farang long-stay/retirees over here you're sadly mistaken. The current reality and future is all about short term tourists. They want us to come here, spend lots of money and go home. "Thailand is for Thais," as many Thais love to say.

I think we're witnessing a closing of a frontier, and at the same time a re-definition and restructuring of mass tourism. It's getting harder to find those out-of-way places that were not so uncommon just a few short years ago. Resorts are being built at breakneck speed, and prices are steeply on the rise. Vast new tourism markets have been opened up - especially for tourists from China, India and Russia.

In short, Thailand is betting on short-term tourism, and letting the long-stayers go. I don't like it, but I can understand this direction. On a recent visit to Ko Chang, I was shocked about how much development had occurred there since my first visit 5 years ago. It struck me that people will continue to visit beach areas no matter how over-developed and crowded they are. This is what they're betting on.

Well, if "people will continue to visit beach areas", then perhaps they should go to Somalia. It has beaches too.

[simon43]

How many Thai people in Thailand? 60 million? 80 million? and how many farangs in Thailand?

[\quote]

The number of 'foreigners' living in Thailand (that means on retirement or extended visas etc) is actually extremely small compared to the Thai population figure. And most of those non-Thais are Japanese and Korean. The number of westerners is a very small fraction of 1%.

(How do I know? Studying an MA in Thai Studies at Chula - you get to meet some very important people and get to learn some very interesting information....)

Simon

[simon43]

Thailand is for Thais...

[\quote]

Spot-on comment. And if a farang wants to live in Thailand long-term, then he needs to be 'thai-a-nised'. If he/she is unwilling to do this, then there is no place in Thailand for him/her.

Simon

[PeaceBlondie]

I've spent the day planning how to leave Thailand, permanently. Unless some high-ranking Thai immigration official pulls another surprise out of his hat in the next two months, I'll extend my retirement status for another year, by which time I'll be 66 and hopefully able to teach English for another five years, but not here, no way, Jose. Speaking of Jose, there are beach cities within three hours ride from my daughters, where I can live like a prince. I will buy no more vehicles here, and save up cash I otherwise would have spent here, to be ready.

I have a friend here who just turned 80, and he's alone and subject to the same ridiculous whims of petty bureaucrats that the rest of us are. I have no intention of spending another 15 or 20 years on annual extensions, praying to the gods of immigration here. I am not comfortable knowing I am only a temporary, non-immigrant, tentative, unwelcome guest.

[petervanner]

Watch the baht in time,

[simon43]

PeaceBlondie - I certainly think that elderly retirees have a lot to worry about. I'm sure that this will not be the last visa amendment that affects them.

Simon

[dogleg]

In case you sages didn't know, Thailand's immigration and labour laws are ALREADY DIFFERENT for different nationalities (for example, Chinese only get 15 days VOA) so if their target were the Chinese they could have easily applied those laws only to the Chinese...

Not to mention that the immigration requirement for an extension to the "B" visa have a different income requirement for the various nationalities. If they were targeting the chinese and Indians then they would raise their income requirements to equal the USA. As I see it they are targeting Australia, Canada, Europe, Japan, USA since these are the countries in the top income required bracket.

It would be easy to keep out the chinese by retirees by using the same system for the retirement visa. No great leap in logic here.

I'd say it was well targetted - at people with less than 800k each to spend and are not planning to hand it (and more) over to a Thai when they die!

[gregchambers]

You can go back forty years and the perceived wisdom was always never put in any more money into Thailand than you can afford to lose... think of it as a sanuk fund!

On the other hand, try getting out of Manila's international airport without getting ripped off - they have even closed off the usual escape of going up to arrivals and diving into a taxi that has just deposited passengers.

Go to Laos, they will lock u up if u f..k ones of their women without marrying her first.

Go to Vietnam and see how long you last.

Cambodian, the first time you take that condom off you will get AIDS the place innudated with ex-brothel gals and nationalistic idiocy that makes Thailand seem tame!

Malayasia is going hardcore muslim on a whim, anytime you want to blink...

South American has possibilities but only if you are a martial arts expert and can defend yourself from random muggings. If you are fifty and want a babe expect to be mugged everyway which!

Huge poverty and disease in Afica, could find paradise in some Ethiopian youth and just before you come find some extra large African guy giving you a length up the backside.

Sorry, but for farang (forty, fifty, sixty etc) there is nowhere quite like Thailand...

The only way to survive to emulate I Claudius and claim poverty when you want to start again.

[thaigene2]

I am not affected as I won't qualify for a retirement visa for many years to come, but this new rule is truly stupid and cruel. Why make it harder for foreign families to stay in Thailand? I can't think of a single reason. At the same time, those that are affected by this rule will be hit very hard. And others who maybe could come up with the money will probably leave in disgust.

What kind of government invents new laws that specifically hurt families? It boggles the mind.

PS: I think one needs to view this in the context of ever-increasing anti-foreigner laws and increased isolationism in Thailand. It's sad because it hurts the Thai people the most.

Good point on condo prices too. I was in the market for a condo but now, not anymore. Not because of this specific law, more like because of the general direction this country is taking which virtually guarantees that the ROI becomes smaller and smaller... retirees getting kicked out, hard to move money out of the country, etc etc.

Needless to say, the rule change does not surprise me. As I said a long time ago, the visa changes have nothing to do with crime..........they are the product of a growing xenophobia (anti-Western) attitude. I said it before and will say it again.........eventually the grandfathered laws will be abrogated. At that point the high on their horses love Thailand or leave it crowd (the people who think only bad people are being hurt by the rule changes) will be yelling the loudest. But, by then, it will be too late. The writing is clearly on the wall..........WE DO NOT WANT YOU.....GET OUT!

Good luck!

So, if that is correct, why do they have a visa specifically for retirement purposes?? If that was the case, they could be like Singapore - does not have any retirement visa for foreigners. But Thailand does.

Why does Thailand have a retirement visa? Well come on, next week it will be changed to an "S" Visa - for Sucker's Visa. Why do you think?? Because they want you to come here and buy a f+cking place from the friendly Thai-Chin developer or speculator then they'll change the rules on you..

Once you've bought a place - f+ck you! The idea is to drain the cash out of you...then p+ss off - you no longer meet the NEW qualifications..

The fact that posters keep talking about rights, lack of them, etc, is testament the complete naivete about Thailand. Everyone you see driving around town in a Merc/Benz or other expensive car, living in a nice place, sending their kids to int'l schools - or abroad, answers everything you ever needed to know - but were oblivious to.

NOBODY means anthing here unless they are connected and influential, and even if they are only semi-influential and connected, that's all that matters. That counts 99% of you farang readers out. Any more questions about why you are being treated so unfairly? What influence do you have? Who should care? Why would they? Welcome to guanxi-land.

Edited September 1, 2007 by thaigene2

[Oldboy]

I posted a couple of months ago, asking about the advisability of retiring with the bare minimum monetary requirements on a combined basis, taking into account both my wife's and my retirement incomes.

It would seem the question is now moot?

We had already decided to just vacation long term, in Thailand but mostly elsewhere in the region, as a result of the great advice and information we got in that thread. Thanks to those who responded in a helpful spirit, with great insight and intelligence. I hope that you are able to weather this latest storm.

Maybe there will be some great deals on rentals as a result of this, from once secure expats now desperate to escape? Hopefully from the poster who obliquely referred to us as "knackered old financially border line farangs," and the other one or two who were less than kind.

Now, that would be sweet indeed.

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

Take a look at what a British International law firm has to say on the topic of indirect expropriation which is what will happen if retirees are forced by virtue of their change in status to quickly liquidate condo or home investments. Thailand could be facing more lawsuits than they could ever settle. If the tribunals rule against the government which is likely despite nationalistic claims to the contrary, then Thailand's assests abroad could be subject to seizure to pay the claims. Scroll down the page until you see Thailand.

http://tinyurl.com/2agq2m

//Edit: removed paragraph replying to a post that has since been deleted.

Edited September 1, 2007 by Maestro

[IAMSOBAD]

nobody has talked about other dependents. look at the original post from sunbelt. it states all dependents. it just used 800,000x2 as an example. go back and read the first paragraph. it says all dependents.

no offense to our sponsor...but i think you have interpreted this wrong. i am really hoping that is the case.

why cant we find any other mention of this new law anywhere else in the news...papers...anywhere? i was at immigration all this past week. they said nothing??? i want to see the new law in writing and the copy posted here for all of us to read for ourselves.

[Sateev]

On a different topic, take a look at what a British International law firm has to say on the topic of indirect expropriation which is what will happen if retirees are forced by virtue of their change in status to quickly liquidate condo or home investments. Thailand could be facing more lawsuits than they could ever settle. If the tribunals rule against the government which is likely despite nationalistic claims to the contrary, then Thailand's assests abroad could be subject to seizure to pay the claims. Scroll down the page until you see Thailand.

http://tinyurl.com/2agq2m

EXCELLENT article, hope it further sees the light of day.

Sateev

Edited September 1, 2007 by Sateev

[gregchambers]

Even in a worst case scenario there is no forced sale of condos - houses/land a different matter but no rcenet Thai government has ever said that farang can own land or houses. Thai law has always been clear on this, they do not want farang to own land. Yes, some lawyers have found a way to beat the government's clearly, long held view that Thai land should be for Thais. If you marry a Thai lady there is a concession for allowing you to own a limited amount of land in joint names, with the unstated but obvious impliaction that when you die it will revert to Thai ownership. If you fail to satisfy future visa requirements your condo then becomes a holiday home for limited visits in a year. There is no forced sale unless you have invested all your money in it, in which case you basically get what you deserve for thinking that a third world country is the same as farangland.

I would also suggest that the govrn is not too amused at the huge amount of money that farang property developers (many escapees from the mess in SPain) in Pattaya and Phuket are stealing from fellow farangs by lying about the legality of house ownership. etc.

Bottom line, if you want a house in Thailand expect to get f..ked over!

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

Even in a worst case scenario there is no forced sale of condos - houses/land a different matter but no rcenet Thai government has ever said that farang can own land or houses. Thai law has always been clear on this, they do not want farang to own land. Yes, some lawyers have found a way to beat the government's clearly, long held view that Thai land should be for Thais. If you marry a Thai lady there is a concession for allowing you to own a limited amount of land in joint names, with the unstated but obvious impliaction that when you die it will revert to Thai ownership. If you fail to satisfy future visa requirements your condo then becomes a holiday home for limited visits in a year. There is no forced sale unless you have invested all your money in it, in which case you basically get what you deserve for thinking that a third world country is the same as farangland.

I would also suggest that the govrn is not too amused at the huge amount of money that farang property developers (many escapees from the mess in SPain) in Pattaya and Phuket are stealing from fellow farangs by lying about the legality of house ownership. etc.

Bottom line, if you want a house in Thailand expect to get f..ked over!

Condos have been specifically excluded if Thais own more than 50% of the units. Regarding companies set up to own homes, you obviously didn't read what the well respected international law firm and most every government except Thailand has had to say on the topic. There are other well founded principles of international law too. Try Googling "indirect expropriation".

Edited September 1, 2007 by ChiangMaiAmerican

[Netfan]

If true and enforced, it will be interesting to see the effect this has on communities like Hua Hin, which has a large "expat couples" population, many of them of retirement age. HH has experienced incredible growth in the past 3 years. We have a brand new shopping mall, housing developments and condos on every spare lot, brand name shops, Toyota, Chevy and Honda car dealerships. Would we have any of this without the retired expat community? Not very likely- none of it existed until HH caught on as the place to live. To those who think foreigner's contributions to the Thai economy is negligible, well, maybe where you live, but here it is very very visible. A lot of Thais will be hurt by this.

[coalminer]

Retire in Maleysia .....

I was there a couple of weeks ago and took a picture of the swimming pool at the hotel where a Malay and his wife were swimming.................

[farang prince]

I've spent the day planning how to leave Thailand, permanently. Unless some high-ranking Thai immigration official pulls another surprise out of his hat in the next two months, I'll extend my retirement status for another year, by which time I'll be 66 and hopefully able to teach English for another five years, but not here, no way, Jose. Speaking of Jose, there are beach cities within three hours ride from my daughters, where I can live like a prince. I will buy no more vehicles here, and save up cash I otherwise would have spent here, to be ready.

I have a friend here who just turned 80, and he's alone and subject to the same ridiculous whims of petty bureaucrats that the rest of us are. I have no intention of spending another 15 or 20 years on annual extensions, praying to the gods of immigration here. I am not comfortable knowing I am only a temporary, non-immigrant, tentative, unwelcome guest.

PB, you and I don't have a dog in this particular hunt. But we are old and experienced enough to know that this is not the end of the Thai government's attack on farangs. We've been splitting our time between the USA and Thailand. But my Thai partner really doesn't want to return to her homeland. She can see what is coming. Guess this is probably as good a time as any to let her get her way. The cost of living is going to go up by living in the USA fulltime (it will be somewhat offset by not maintaining two households), but at least no one can jerk us around. Really a shame.

[JimsKnight]

It seems to be that the thais (in power) are terrified of farang 'colonies' becoming properly established. By that I mean having expats who have settled and their farang spouses having kids and those 'pure blood' farang affecting the demographics so that the thais have to deal with multi-culturalisation. They would rather have half-thai children running around so that they will be re-absorbed into the pure thai bloodline later on.

Now to be fair to us lot, I don't think there will ever be enough purely farang married to farang marriages/retirements to even get anywhere near to shifting the demographics in Thailand to a farang bias.

Thailand has far too many thais living in it for that.

But if it were a smaller country like Israel (which does restrict marriage / visas to Palestinians because of this) I would understand it more.

But it could be that the thais have seen the examples of different races moving about and settling into an established country in Europe and don't want that to happen in Thailand?