No More Dependent Extension Of Stay If The Host Foreigner Has A Retirement Extension Of Stay Permit

[otton]

However, I don't share your optimism because this exact same requirement is in effect in a number of other countries, such as Brazil, for their retirement visa programs.

Not exactly, it's just that Brazil doesn't have the "money in the bank" option, only pensions. The required amount is the same as Thailand (USD 2000, Baht 66000) and covers up to 2 dependants (USD 1000 for additional dependants) and even the min age is the same, 50yo. Immi laws and regs are very much more stable and you can buy and own land and houses.

Spouses and parents of Brazilians citizens are very easily granted Permament Residence after 1 year (which they wait in Brazil without having to leave the country).

[Jingthing]

for what its worth, and this may have already been posted, but you can get a years visa, from the thai embssy in your own country, [ie.uk for me], stipulation is you have to be 50 and over, i believe in the uk its £90, this entitles you to stay in thailand , but you have to leave every 90days, but the big plus is you don"t have to have a bank account with 800,000 b .in fact you dont have to have an account at all.

hope this helps.

Is this available in the US, year after year? One year probably if you say you are "exploring retirement." I somehow doubt you could get that year after year in the US, you say you can in the UK? What reason would you put after the first one? Retirement? Then, why not get a retirement visa.

[Jingthing]

However, I don't share your optimism because this exact same requirement is in effect in a number of other countries, such as Brazil, for their retirement visa programs.

Not exactly, it's just that Brazil doesn't have the "money in the bank" option, only pensions. The required amount is the same as Thailand (USD 2000, Baht 66000) and covers up to 2 dependants (USD 1000 for additional dependants) and even the min age is the same, 50yo. Immi laws and regs are very much more stable and you can buy and own land and houses.

Spouses and parents of Brazilians citizens are very easily granted Permament Residence after 1 year (which they wait in Brazil without having to leave the country).

Actually, you make an excellent point and maybe good news. Yes, these requirements in other countries are for those with pensions. Many countries have no other way to qualify without a pension. For those with some kind of investment option, I have never heard of one where you have to make a new investment every year. However, this is Thailand, if Thailand decided to require pensioners to transfer it all in every year, I bet that they would also require bank account people to do the same. BTW, Brazil also does have an investment visa option (buy real estate).

Edited September 1, 2007 by Jingthing

[otton]

I don't agree with it, but it is their country. I do know that 90% of Thai people would be denied even a tourist visa to visit the US for one day, let alone stay an entire year. And they would be charged 3500 baht plus other fees for the privelege of being denied. So who am I to complain?

You and others still believing this nonsense go get your answer here: www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=129155

The OP has been banned (unsurprisingly...) but the thread and his excellent points are still there.

[Naam]

Is this available in the US, year after year? One year probably if you say you are "exploring retirement." I somehow doubt you could get that year after year in the US, you say you can in the UK? What reason would you put after the first one? Retirement? Then, why not get a retirement visa.

the U.S. does not have the option "retirement visa". but my wife and me lived happily retired in Florida for nearly 15 years. germans and a number of other citizens can obtain a visa with a 10 year validity but are allowed to stay only 6 months at a stretch. but that was no problem for us as we spend some time too in our home in Germany. we knew quite some retirees who flew to the Bahamas for a coup of coffee every six months.

after sept11 restrictions were applied. no more driver's license issued longer than the "stay stamp" in your passport, i.e. an expired license was not renewed and a new one had to be applied for after every entry.

p.s. no way to get residence without going through the formal immigration procedure.

[togena212529]

There is a yawning discrepancy between the financial requirements for a farang husband-Thai wife, and farang-farang couple retirees. What can be the basis for such inconsistency? It almost seems this is a campaign to encourage more farangs to partner with Thais and to bump their foreign spouses

The new policy will probably prompt emigration of retirees to Malaysia...and will certainly impact negatively on local Thai business.

Hi fruittbatt,

is so sad reading such negative rules against foreigners. At the moment I am not affected this time, but what will come next. I am absolutely sure they will hurt next the foreigners which are not affected now, because they are trying to reduce the big demand for the Thai Bhat. Many Thai people have lost their work through the strong Bhat and if the currency doesn't change the direction many more will get unemployed as well. I have got only one chance to look for an other country where I can stay as a pensioner. Does anyone know the visa ruels for MALYSIA ?

[hansnl]

Simon 43, you may be right, it `trains` perfectly with the intended proposals to change the rules for getting citizenship for Farang men married to Thai woman.

In my case, I am a married to a Thai woman, in the process of adopting her children.

Last week I heard from someone in the justice system, the adoption was a very wise move!

But it is a real shame for goodwilling older people that are confronted with an ever changing variety

Like I said before, next week I will look out in NL for suitable space to live in, and with more than casual attention read the Philippine retirement program, and wrote to a friend in that country to check for a suitable condo.

Spread my things, or wings, whatever.

[thaitoon]

for what its worth, and this may have already been posted, but you can get a years visa, from the thai embssy in your own country, [ie.uk for me], stipulation is you have to be 50 and over, i believe in the uk its £90, this entitles you to stay in thailand , but you have to leave every 90days, but the big plus is you don"t have to have a bank account with 800,000 b .in fact you dont have to have an account at all.

hope this helps.

Is this available in the US, year after year? One year probably if you say you are "exploring retirement." I somehow doubt you could get that year after year in the US, you say you can in the UK? What reason would you put after the first one? Retirement? Then, why not get a retirement visa.

this applies if you want to retire in thailand, i have no idea why you ask me if this applies to the u.s.

i was responding to people who may have a problem with the retirement visa fo thailand.

[Naam]

Not exactly, it's just that Brazil doesn't have the "money in the bank" option, only pensions.

the problem is Brazil wants a government pension and refuse the retiree status even if you can prove your income is a multiple of the required sum. we bought expensive land and were negotiating with a contractor to build our home when it turned out that we were not eligible.

[otton]

However, this is Thailand, if Thailand decided to require pensioners to transfer it all in every year, I bet that they would also require bank account people to do the same.

Actually, I am surprised they haven't already scrapped the money in the bank option when they scrapped it for the Marriage Extension of Stay Permit...

Maybe this is the next step.

Meanwhile, the requirements for the Retirement Extension of Stay Permit for foreign couples (provided they both are over 50) have just doubled to 1.6 million baht...

BTW, Brazil also does have an investment visa option (buy real estate).

Particularly for people (the majority) who marry a local, Latin American countries are very much easier. Overall, they are a breaze compared to Thailand...

[emmezeta]

The number of posts where ThaiVisa members wrote "it doesn't affect me" is specific for the fahrangs and the fahrang community.

Only "PeaceBlonde" made the right analyzis of the situation and has got the guts to write it down:

"First they came for the backpackers, but nobody objected. Then they came for the visa runners, and nobody wrote the MFA or the Immigration Police. Then they came for these men and ladies, and most of us will do nothing."

Today it's them, tomorrow it can and it will be YOU who is affected.

The fahrang community should unite, write to their specific governments abroad about these laws, and publish this racist behavior in foreign newspapers.

When there was the visarun limitation I went to thai embassy on my country, it was empty and we chatted for half an hour. They said that there would never be any limitation on tourist visa, so nothing to worry. They asked me if I had 2 photos in the pocket I could have had a 6 month Visa in 5 minutes....Of course they stressed i WAS IN MY COUNTRY and do not count on same treatment on Thai embassy on another far away country......

Regarding retirement in Italy we got pension at 65 so the idea to give money to a thai bank for a 12 month visa never crossed my mind, maybe if it was for minimum 5 years....

[Naam]

So a retiree can come live here (well, for now anyway),

far more serious is (if the rumour i heard several months ago is true) that the next step is to prove to immigration that the "show money" HAS BEEN SPENT.

This will never happen. You can take that to the bank. It would be impossible to monitor anyway, what are they going to do, ask to see all your receipts? You can easily just withdraw the money and recycle it somehow, even in a suitcase. I know of no country in the world that requires you to SPEND a specific amount; Thailand will not do this either.

However, something they might do, something that many countries do require, is to require us to TRANSFER in a FRESH certain amount (currently 800K) every year, for both bank account and pension qualifiers. If that happens, I will start shopping for air tickets out.

i don't see any difference. even the fresh amounts can be "recycled". all it takes is a flight to Singapore and re-transfer the money.

[astral]

If you are applying for the extension of stay based on retirement. You now need to provide a map from Immigration to your house.

How ridiculous is this? Immigration cant read an address? If someone has a detailed map of my moo ban...please let me know.......I've never found one.

Will a sketch suffice?

Seriously...is this a joke?

You are lucky if your Moo Banh is laid out in an entirely logical manner.

Many Thai addesses are notoriously difficult to find.

A sketch map should be good enough.

[otton]

the problem is Brazil wants a government pension and refuse the retiree status even if you can prove your income is a multiple of the required sum. we bought expensive land and were negotiating with a contractor to build our home when it turned out that we were not eligible.

Then you will most likely run in exactly the same problem in Thailand if they scrap the "money in the bank" option. I bet you are on the 800k (or 400k if you are staying here from some time already) in the bank, right?

Thailand's immi regs say that the 65k/month must be from govt pensions or other "embassy certifiable incomes" (which means investment and rental incomes don't qualify, ask your embassy). At the moment, you can trick your way out of this and even present them a simple affidavit (of something YOU state, not your embassy like the law requires) and they will probably accept it but that sounds just like the perfect next "enforcement of existing laws"...

[emmezeta]

If there is such a long list of countries warmly welcoming western retirees, why is everyone so concerned with regulations in the cold, cold place called Thailand?

My point. A 6 month Visa is enough to escape european winter .......

[otton]

i don't see any difference. even the fresh amounts can be "recycled". all it takes is a flight to Singapore and re-transfer the money.

Can you exit Thailand with 800,000 Baht/24,000 USD in your suitcase and enter Singapore with the same 800,000 Baht/24,000 USD?

[farang2002]

I have friends, (American husband and wife) that have retired here and have contributed to the Thai economy each month to the tune of around 80,000 to 100,000 baht each and every month for several years. Now the Thai government wants to drive these people out??

This looks like a giant step backwards for Thailand. Thousands of vendors here depend on foreigners spending their retirement income here in Thailand for goods and services. I strongly suspect that The Thailand government has made an extremely unwise decision. These foreign retirees that are here take nothing and spend, spend, spend and now the government is telling them to go spend somewhere else???

It is my understanding that Thailand NEEDS dollars brought into the country and now they forcing people to take their dollars and go away????

My function here is to bring dollars into the country and hurry and spend them so I can bring more in.

It's obvious the Thai government doesn't want us here...

[Naam]

i don't see any difference. even the fresh amounts can be "recycled". all it takes is a flight to Singapore and re-transfer the money.

Can you exit Thailand with 800,000 Baht/24,000 USD in your suitcase and enter Singapore with the same 800,000 Baht/24,000 USD?

yes you can if you carry USD.

[Naam]

the problem is Brazil wants a government pension and refuse the retiree status even if you can prove your income is a multiple of the required sum. we bought expensive land and were negotiating with a contractor to build our home when it turned out that we were not eligible.

Then you will most likely run in exactly the same problem in Thailand if they scrap the "money in the bank" option. I bet you are on the 800k (or 400k if you are staying here from some time already) in the bank, right?

Thailand's immi regs say that the 65k/month must be from govt pensions or other "embassy certifiable incomes" (which means investment and rental incomes don't qualify, ask your embassy). At the moment, you can trick your way out of this and even present them a simple affidavit (of something YOU state, not your embassy like the law requires) and they will probably accept it but that sounds just like the perfect next "enforcement of existing laws"...

i don't see a problem as me and my wife are the sole proprietors of three different companies which we can instruct to pay us any "salary" required. i also don't think that the bar will be raised ever that high that the effects outweigh the benefits of not paying any tax on my worldwide income.

[farang prince]

Did I just miss it? I haven't read anything in the online editions of the English-speaking newspapers about this issue. Perhaps our erstwhile mods have seen something.

[ChiangMaiAmerican]

Its the rulers not the nation who do this.

How to effect the rulers ?

I do not think we affect the true rulers of Thailand at all. My retired military rank is not general. I do not have a hundred million dollars invested in Thailand. Almost all of us are powerless, and I doubt that a write-in protest to our ambassadors will make a difference.

If the new rule is rescinded Monday morning, it matters not. I am an alarmist after I have heard the alarm bell go off very loudly in my ear.

Actually for affected Americans there may be a way to at least create the possibility of returning the favor for Thais living in the US. Senator Sherrod Brown was elected on a promise of leveling the field for Americans. Senator Brown sits on the foreign trade subcommittee of the Senate Banking Committee. Write or fax him about the situation. Tell him you are an American living abroad. If you have invested in a house or condo tell him that you may lose a substantial part of your investment because of the likely distress sale of properties due to the change in regulations. Tell him the new regulations do not contain a grandfather clause and will affect all foreign nationals regardless of prior status. Ask him to at least contact the Thai Ambassador and ask for an explanation and remind him that Thai citizens are allowed to live and work in the US at the pleasure of the US government too. Another Senator to contact would be Byron Dorgan. Senator Dorgan is the chairman of the Democratic Policy Committee. As such he carries a lot of weight with his Democrat colleagues. Among other committees, Senator Dorgan is a member of the US Senate Committee on Appropriations. The Appropriations Committee is responsible for overseeing the US State Department's budget among others. Senator Dorgan has co-authored op-ed pieces with Senator Brown. De facto expropriation of property doesn't sit well with either of them. Don't email. Write and snail mail or fax your letter. As long as GWB remains in office, don't expect help from the State Department.

U.S. Senator Sherrod Brown

455 Russell Senate Office Bldg.

Washington, DC 20510

Fax +1-202-228-6321

U.S. Senator Byron Dorgan

322 Hart Senate Office Building

Washington, DC 20510

Fax: 202-224-1193

Edited September 1, 2007 by ChiangMaiAmerican

[englishoak]

This includes any “grandfather” cases where the dependent applicant had the extension of stay before Sept 1st 2007.

Well if we needed any proof that the Thai government have not an ounce of heart, sense or decency thats it.

So much for wanting the "right kind of farang" how does turning away families encourage that ? It only sends a message that they want only single retirees and may be more sex tourists not less.

I'm sure the majority of retiree couples live on a single company pension with may be a small individual gov one to top up. Most retired couples here in the UK don't have 65K EACH but possible one has 130K, remember most ladies from that era did'nt work much, too busy looking after the family, so unlikely to have their own private pension.

The current rules mean exactly that "current" and i'm pretty sure the next thing to come will be grandfather laws being abolished for the rest of the expats some time soon.

The sense of security for all expats has taken a huge blow today and I urge you all to start looking at a plan B, Thailand will never be a true home, just a place to live while they let you.

SHAME ON YOU THAILAND

And no it dos'nt affect me

[Mobi]

And no it dos'nt affect me

Not yet.....

[britmaveric]

2 Separate bank accounts with 1.6m Baht between the pair of them. It seems this is more about tying more of a farang's dosh up. It's do-able if you have the dosh, and can afford losing that much interest a year.

[mitrapaap]

If a foreigner has been granted a extension of stay based on retirement, until now as per 7.19 of the Royal Police Office Order 606/2006 his or her foreign dependent ( Wife or husband, child, father, mother) could get a extension of stay by being a dependent. As of Sept 1st, no more dependent extension of stay permits will be issued

Some more ones sorted!

Next!

This includes any “grandfather” cases where the dependent applicant had the extension of stay before Sept 1st 2007.

[...]

This National Police Order will be dated Sept 1st 2007 and will be published in the Gazette in the next 10 days. However this order is effective immediately.

These are the most important and telling parts and this is what even those who aren't affected at all should carefully think about...

It doesn't surprise those of us who have long understood Thailand and the Thais, of course.

If you are applying for the extension of stay based on retirement. You now need to provide a map from Immigration to your house.

Typical third world!

The map thing is not new at all. My mother came on retirement visa 2 1/2 years ago and we had to draw a map where she will live. Frankly, not a big deal.

The rule appears rude to me and what I really don't like is that this kind of things that seriously affect and impact people are inplemented over night, with immediate effect.

I'm usually very PRO Thai - I can't understand this one however.

[brahmburgers]

Look folks, get one thing straight.

They don't care about foreigners - in fact many derive a diverse pleasure from pissing us off.

They don't care about the money we bring. They've all got their own personal fortunes and they couldn't give two hoots what happens to the Thai economy.

If every retired farang was kicked out of Thailand tomorrow, it would take years, if ever, for it to have even the slightest effect on the Thai economy.

Get real - they don't want you here, and you aint as important to Thailand as you think you are.

Sorry, all you dreamers out there....

I agree with you Mobi. We have far far less impact on the economy than many people on here think.

I agree that the bosses in Bangkok don't appreciate how much outside money is pumped in to the Thai economy

by resident farang. though difficult to gauge, I think it's a bigger amount than anyone realizes. I've said this before, and I challenge anyone to prove me wrong: resident farang bring in more outside revenue to Thailand than any Thai industry - including rice, rubber, clothing, ....you name it.

The major portion of farang money is undocumented. It goes towards dowries and supporting girlfriend's/wives' families. Large potions also go to all manner of other Thai products and services, from construction, land acquisition, biz start-ups, appliances, vehicles, entertainment, ad infinitum.

Already many Thai vendors are feeling the effects of less farang money - and it's guaranteed to get worse if such ridiculous mean-spirited laws get enacted.

[Jingthing]

Is this available in the US, year after year? One year probably if you say you are "exploring retirement." I somehow doubt you could get that year after year in the US, you say you can in the UK? What reason would you put after the first one? Retirement? Then, why not get a retirement visa.

the U.S. does not have the option "retirement visa". but my wife and me lived happily retired in Florida for nearly 15 years. germans and a number of other citizens can obtain a visa with a 10 year validity but are allowed to stay only 6 months at a stretch. but that was no problem for us as we spend some time too in our home in Germany. we knew quite some retirees who flew to the Bahamas for a coup of coffee every six months.

after sept11 restrictions were applied. no more driver's license issued longer than the "stay stamp" in your passport, i.e. an expired license was not renewed and a new one had to be applied for after every entry.

p.s. no way to get residence without going through the formal immigration procedure.

Huh???

I was talking about Thai consulates in the US!

Going back every year to get a one year O visa. I don't think it would work over time very well. Not a good enough reason, as a real retirement extension option exists.

There is no point in comparing Thailand to the US. Totally different economic levels.

Edited September 1, 2007 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

I agree the map thingie is trivial. I think this might have been an old regulation they have dragged out of the closet. Consistent with the crackdown on knowing exactly where we all are. If only all the changes were so trivial.

[capaotung]

2 Separate bank accounts with 1.6m Baht between the pair of them. It seems this is more about tying more of a farang's dosh up. It's do-able if you have the dosh, and can afford losing that much interest a year.

AND both of you are older than 50...

[Jingthing]

I agree that the bosses in Bangkok don't appreciate how much outside money is pumped in to the Thai economy

by resident farang. though difficult to gauge, I think it's a bigger amount than anyone realizes. I've said this before, and I challenge anyone to prove me wrong: resident farang bring in more outside revenue to Thailand than any Thai industry - including rice, rubber, clothing, ....you name it.

We are clearly an economic benefit. I don't think they are so stupid that they don't know that. The Philippines has determined that each retired expat creates four local jobs, not literally by hiring them, but by the recycling of the money they bring in. The Philippines and Thailand are at similar economic levels, not exactly, but similar. Why wouldn't the exact same benefit work in Thailand? I think it does. So there is more to it than that they don't realize the benefit. Maybe the X word.

Edited September 1, 2007 by Jingthing