No More Dependent Extension Of Stay If The Host Foreigner Has A Retirement Extension Of Stay Permit

[useronthenet]

You have to look at the big picture

The stats for this year show that head of the list of retirement visa approvals is CHINA with INDIA and JAPAN close. The farang is way down the list.

So if Thai Officials allow this to continue with Mr Wong and 10 kids all under 800,000 baht retirement scheme, then the future looks grim for Thailand.

UNfortunately in the big net gets caught the small fish and so I feel for those that planned for their retirement -

Somethings in life are certain - tax, death and changes to the law.

TRY Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia

I think you will find Thailand will cater more and more for mr wong & mr sing since both these economies are booming and Thailand is conveninently sandwiched between the two and hence Thailand will become less dependant on Farangs

Sorry guys you can moan as much as you want but Thailand wins again

[otton]

The Philippines is in the process of creating a two year Visa and is concidering no visa's for some countries.

The same ones who get "free" 30 days permits of stay on arrival in Thailand get "free" 21 days permits of stay on arrival in the Philippines BUT in the Philippines you can keep on extending it (2 months at a time) for up to 24 months without ever having to leave the country (and extensions cost less than in Thailand)!

That's already possible (a recent change, it was 12 months before) and it shows that, Thailand and Burma apart, many countries in the region are actually increasingly encouraging Westerners and other rich Asians to long visit/stay/move...

The Philippines are a very good alternative to Thailand. Maybe not for the farang couples hit by this latest immi regs change but surely for most of the single men that Thailand attracts (hypocrisies aside).

[Sateev]

I think you will find Thailand will cater more and more for mr wong & mr sing since both these economies are booming and Thailand is conveninently sandwiched between the two and hence Thailand will become less dependant on Farangs

Sorry guys you can moan as much as you want but Thailand wins again

Sadly, I believe this is correct.

The loss of a few thousand retirees will make no ripples in Thailand's pond. What WILL hurt Thailand is the publicity and further damage to its reputation as a place to do business. If they can be so high-handed as to screw a whole class of retirees, no one will trust them, if they were dumb enough to do so in the first place. I hope this is eventually reported around the world.

The Wongs and Sings will speak with an economic voice that won't be ignored.

And Khao San/Koh Samui/Pattaya/Sukhumvit/Chatuchak etc. will continue to bring in the lion's share of farang revenue.

Welcome to Thailand. Now go home.

Sateev

[dalmatian]

Just had to add a reply.

This whole thing makes me continue to question why I am retired in Thailand.

Firstly, I have a house in a company name (advised to use this option by a reputable lawyer when I was first here 4.5 years ago), the soon to come FBA will probably kill that one off. Plus some of the forum members make out I must be a crook using loopholes etc and I will get what I deserve, what the hel_l is that meant to mean!

Secondly, I had 800,000 baht in a Kasikorn account which was transferred to a Kasikorn fund at the banks suggestion. This fund is now no longer acceptable to Pattaya immigration and I can not break the fund, hence a need to put another 800,000 baht in a deposit account. What a pain!

Thirdly, I am married to an English national of Burmese decent who is 38 and will no longer be allowed to be a dependent on my retirement visa due for renewal in December.

Is there any good news.......no of course not. Ok my wife may be able to get a Non immigrant O/B visa but this will need to be done in UK before December. Of course I could just tell my wife that she can no longer live with me in Thailand and she must go home, I would love to hear an opinion from the British Embassy in Bangkok on that one. Civil rights, human rights, who cares, you are in Thailand.

Well my house is up for sale and I am definately thinking of leaving for another country but the sad thing is that I like it here but the Thai mentality and approach at all levels towards Farangs is just disgusting.

People talk about moving to Philippines etc. Having lived there for 5 years before I can say that it might be good for a man alone but for a foreign couple the infrastructure etc can not compare to what Thailand has to offer, it would be a poor choice.

Will it stop there, probably not, we should all be concerned, no more hiding in the hills, life was never meant to be easy and Thailand must have a monopoly on that phrase.

[Sateev]

The same ones who get "free" 30 days permits of stay on arrival in Thailand get "free" 21 days permits of stay on arrival in the Philippines BUT in the Philippines you can keep on extending it (2 months at a time) for up to 24 months without ever having to leave the country (and extensions cost less than in Thailand)!

That's already possible (a recent change, it was 12 months before) and it shows that, Thailand and Burma apart, many countries in the region are actually increasingly encouraging Westerners and other rich Asians to long visit/stay/move...

The Philippines are a very good alternative to Thailand. Maybe not for the farang couples hit by this latest immi regs change but surely for most of the single men that Thailand attracts (hypocrisies aside).

I think people who are attracted to Thailand fall into one of several categories, or a Venn diagram of a mixture of the categories:

1) guys who chase skirts

2) guys who used to chase skirts, but fell in love with someone

3) guys who chase skirts, but fell in love with Thailand

4) guys who wanted to chase skirts, but brought their farang GF with them, and they both fell in love with Thailand

5) guys without enough money to chase skirts

6) guys who have enough money to chase skirts anywhere in the world, but think Thailand is the best value for the money.

7) women

8) others

Tough luck for #4, but other categories will follow.

Sateev

[PeaceBlondie]

Its the rulers not the nation who do this.

How to effect the rulers ?

I do not think we affect the true rulers of Thailand at all. My retired military rank is not general. I do not have a hundred million dollars invested in Thailand. Almost all of us are powerless, and I doubt that a write-in protest to our ambassadors will make a difference.

If the new rule is rescinded Monday morning, it matters not. I am an alarmist after I have heard the alarm bell go off very loudly in my ear.

[Dakhar]

Some time ago I came to this forum seeking advice. The question was... I have an employer that is willing to pay me in USD in a US bank, or Thai Baht in a Thai bank.

The response was... US BANK!!!!!!!

I thank you all for that reply. It will be one less issue I will have to face when the great country finally rules me out, and when that day comes.... I will smile.

[qualtrough]

Wonder what would happen if the British, German, US imigratons would suddenly amend the rules for Thai's to match the rules here exactly including land ownership - what an outcry there would be in the Thai press about the hundreds of thousands of Thais who are being descriminated against, living in those countries - having lived with my Thai family in Europe, there was no problem obtaining a permanent residence for the wife - back here since some years I can't help but feeling any future here threatened by a gouvernment that seems to becoming more and more hostile towards foreigners, even those who live here honestly.

Isn't it about time our foreign ministries/embassies start interveening against all this?

One should always keep in mind, there are now more Thai's living in Europe and the US than foreigners living in Thailand and those Thai's enjoy all the freedom of our countries while we are being screwed here!

I can't speak to the situation with Britain and Germany, but I do know the US doesn't give a rat's ass about its citizens abroad. They are happy to take in our taxes and other payments, but equally happy to deny payout for Medicare, etc. for Americans living overseas. The US elite would also have no interest in denying themselves the profit from selling land and property to Thais. Why should they care about Americans who have chosen to live elsewhere other than the US? As far as the US is concerned, I suspect any real action would be a pipe dream.

[albymush]

I have friends, (American husband and wife) that have retired here and have contributed to the Thai economy each month to the tune of around 80,000 to 100,000 baht each and every month for several years. Now the Thai government wants to drive these people out??

This looks like a giant step backwards for Thailand. Thousands of vendors here depend on foreigners spending their retirement income here in Thailand for goods and services. I strongly suspect that The Thailand government has made an extremely unwise decision. These foreign retirees that are here take nothing and spend, spend, spend and now the government is telling them to go spend somewhere else???

Along with the changes that will come out in OCTOBER they have just about shot themselves in the foot.

I also know three couples who stay here under the old rules. Now it seems that they may have to up and go to Cambodia or the likes as they dont have 800,000bt in the bank EACH.

One other friend is here because he has a baby (in his name but not married) he had to adopted his own daughter and has a visa because she is dependent on his income from the uk. He is 48 years old and can not qualify for a retirement visa as the age for one is 50.

Anyone any thoughts please???????

It may sound like quoting the obvious - but there is the 12 months, non-immigrant "O" catagory visa, which can be extended to 15 months, and if your friend is already 48 he only needs 2 of these and he's then elegable for the retirement visa.

[otton]

People talk about moving to Philippines etc. Having lived there for 5 years before I can say that it might be good for a man alone but for a foreign couple the infrastructure etc can not compare to what Thailand has to offer, it would be a poor choice.

Yes, infrastructure and less safety are what I was thinking about when I wrote that the Philippines wouldn't probably be a good alternative for farang couples.

Honestly I think that for guys in your situation (retired couples, both foreign) Asia hasn't much to offer and, wanting absolutely to live in cheaper places than one's homecountry, I personally would seriously consider Latin America or, if you don't mind the weather, Eastern Europe (legally ###### easy to move there and with a lot more protection and respect for your civil and human rights since most of them have entered/are entering the EU).

Even for those single guys places like Brazil and Colombia are GREAT alternatives.

[Naam]

I agree, a lot cleaner in Malaysia and less crowded too. I was there about 2 years ago (Kuala Lumpur) and it was definitely one of the cleanest cities I've ever been to. What is the average price for apartments there to rent? Does anyone know?

When I looked last year there were cheap ones but if you take advantage of their expat programme you have to buy a more expensive property

wrong information! no need to buy any property if you wish to participate in "Malaysia my second home".

[fleming]

big drop to expect for house prices in places for retired people such as Hua Hin or Chiang Mai

[chiang mai]

The same ones who get "free" 30 days permits of stay on arrival in Thailand get "free" 21 days permits of stay on arrival in the Philippines BUT in the Philippines you can keep on extending it (2 months at a time) for up to 24 months without ever having to leave the country (and extensions cost less than in Thailand)!

That's already possible (a recent change, it was 12 months before) and it shows that, Thailand and Burma apart, many countries in the region are actually increasingly encouraging Westerners and other rich Asians to long visit/stay/move...

The Philippines are a very good alternative to Thailand. Maybe not for the farang couples hit by this latest immi regs change but surely for most of the single men that Thailand attracts (hypocrisies aside).

I think people who are attracted to Thailand fall into one of several categories, or a Venn diagram of a mixture of the categories:

1) guys who chase skirts

2) guys who used to chase skirts, but fell in love with someone

3) guys who chase skirts, but fell in love with Thailand

4) guys who wanted to chase skirts, but brought their farang GF with them, and they both fell in love with Thailand

5) guys without enough money to chase skirts

6) guys who have enough money to chase skirts anywhere in the world, but think Thailand is the best value for the money.

7) women

8) others

Tough luck for #4, but other categories will follow.

Sateev

Sateev, that's real close to being a Troll post. No sod it, it is a troll post.

[Naam]

So a retiree can come live here (well, for now anyway), but his wife is not welcome ??

And how many wives of retirees are going to have an independent income?

as i understand the new "order" the wife is "welcome" if she can provide proof of holding THB 800k in a thai bank account AND meets the required minimum age. nowhere it is mentioned that she needs an independent income.

it's a serious situation for retirees who are able show the demanded 1.6 mm Baht but the dependent partner is younger than 50 years.

far more serious is (if the rumour i heard several months ago is true) that the next step is to prove to immigration that the "show money" HAS BEEN SPENT.

[jumnien]

Seems like Thailand is extending their pursuit of "quality tourists" to include a preference for "quality retirees". I don't agree with it, but it is their country. I do know that 90% of Thai people would be denied even a tourist visa to visit the US for one day, let alone stay an entire year. And they would be charged 3500 baht plus other fees for the privelege of being denied. So who am I to complain?

[Jingthing]

Seems like Thailand is extending their pursuit of "quality tourists" to include a preference for "quality retirees". I don't agree with it, but it is their country. I do know that 90% of Thai people would be denied even a tourist visa to visit the US for one day, let alone stay an entire year. And they would be charged 3500 baht plus other fees for the privelege of being denied. So who am I to complain?

Sorry, but here I go again: comparing Thailand to the US does not compute. Compare it instead to countries at similar economic levels that do indeed warmly welcome retired expats. We all know very well why it is so hard for Thais to travel to the US. It is because a huge percentage have been proven to overstay illegally and work illegally. Retired western expats mostly do not overstay illegally nor do they work illegally in great numbers.

Edited September 1, 2007 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

So a retiree can come live here (well, for now anyway),

far more serious is (if the rumour i heard several months ago is true) that the next step is to prove to immigration that the "show money" HAS BEEN SPENT.

This will never happen. You can take that to the bank. It would be impossible to monitor anyway, what are they going to do, ask to see all your receipts? You can easily just withdraw the money and recycle it somehow, even in a suitcase. I know of no country in the world that requires you to SPEND a specific amount; Thailand will not do this either.

However, something they might do, something that many countries do require, is to require us to TRANSFER in a FRESH certain amount (currently 800K) every year, for both bank account and pension qualifiers. If that happens, I will start shopping for air tickets out.

There have been a few posters saying they are doing this already to bank account qualifiers. I don't believe that is really the rule yet; I think those cases had something irregular with their banking histories that made the officers feel that the original 800K was never proved. But this change could happen, and if it does, it will effect many more people than today's ruling.

Edited September 1, 2007 by Jingthing

[jumnien]

If there is such a long list of countries warmly welcoming western retirees, why is everyone so concerned with regulations in the cold, cold place called Thailand?

[Jingthing]

If there is such a long list of countries warmly welcoming western retirees, why is everyone so concerned with regulations in the cold, cold place called Thailand?

Simple. Because we want to live in Thailand, or are already here, are heavily invested in living here, like living here, and don't want to be kicked out. Did you really have to ask? We like the country. We don't like the visa uncertainties.

Edited September 1, 2007 by Jingthing

[present]

That this will hurt their economy doesn't care for them.It's only the normal people who will feel this,not the politicians of army-chefs. The militair junta installs a dictature and many other unpleasant steps will follow. I am afraid the forthcoming elections won't change much.They will be a vehicle to show the world they are changing to more democracy, but it will only be a show, I am afraid.It is a strange phenomene that in the global economy of today, right nationalistic politicians seems to be in panic to loose grip,power over the people.The people in power doesn't seem to be Buddists, because they act completely contrary from the Buddist philosphy.

Not going to affect me directly but definately a disaster for many, many retired couples.

Thailand has just stopped being a favourable retirement location. I wonder if the powers that be have thought this through as to exactly how many retired couples will now have to sell up and move, taking their (evidently too small) contribution to the local economy with them?

Another fine example of just how tenuous our position here is, I wonder what will be next?

[tijnebijn]

That this will hurt their economy doesn't care for them.It's only the normal people who will feel this,not the politicians of army-chefs. The militair junta installs a dictature and many other unpleasant steps will follow. I am afraid the forthcoming elections won't change much.They will be a vehicle to show the world they are changing to more democracy, but it will only be a show, I am afraid.It is a strange phenomene that in the global economy of today, right nationalistic politicians seems to be in panic to loose grip,power over the people.The people in power doesn't seem to be Buddists, because they act completely contrary from the Buddist philosphy.

Not going to affect me directly but definately a disaster for many, many retired couples.

Thailand has just stopped being a favourable retirement location. I wonder if the powers that be have thought this through as to exactly how many retired couples will now have to sell up and move, taking their (evidently too small) contribution to the local economy with them?

Another fine example of just how tenuous our position here is, I wonder what will be next?

True fact .

But the thing is what can we do about it ?

[JetsetBkk]

I can't speak to the situation with Britain and Germany, but I do know the US doesn't give a rat's ass about its citizens abroad.

Ditto UK.

[Joe Walshe]

Consider why the Thai authorities would do this. The only possible motive I see is that they are trying to stop Indians, Chineese, Burmese etc. bringing in loads of relatives on one retirement visa. I doubt it is an attempt to attack Farangs.

I am not familiar with immigration policy worldwide but I know that Europe has serious problems trying to stop massive immigration while protecting the rights of legitimate immigrants.

For example, in the last few days Ireland proposed changing laws to stop the spouses of EU nationals (who are allowed to live here) being allowed residency. There has been an uproar from, for example , English people who married Japanese and now worry about being deported. So while presumably the Irish Govt. doesn't want to penalise legitimate families there are reports of East Europeans marrying Africans fpr money so that they get residency. The whole thing is a mess but cna the Irish Govt. ignore what is happening and once these residents get Citizineship pay to house them etc.

I believe, worlwide governments are trying to control immigration but they are fighting a losing battle. We all need immigration but it's impossible to control.

[tijnebijn]

So a retiree can come live here (well, for now anyway),

far more serious is (if the rumour i heard several months ago is true) that the next step is to prove to immigration that the "show money" HAS BEEN SPENT.

This will never happen. You can take that to the bank. It would be impossible to monitor anyway, what are they going to do, ask to see all your receipts? You can easily just withdraw the money and recycle it somehow, even in a suitcase. I know of no country in the world that requires you to SPEND a specific amount; Thailand will not do this either.

However, something they might do, something that many countries do require, is to require us to TRANSFER in a FRESH certain amount (currently 800K) every year, for both bank account and pension qualifiers. If that happens, I will start shopping for air tickets out.

There have been a few posters saying they are doing this already to bank account qualifiers. I don't believe that is really the rule yet; I think those cases had something irregular with their banking histories that made the officers feel that the original 800K was never proved. But this change could happen, and if it does, it will effect many more people than today's ruling.

That will be the drup go over for most of the retirees .

Would be the most rediculous of all until now .

I think it will be unlikely though , like that the combination income / savings are not possible anymore also.

But you never know in Thailand .

[Jingthing]

I am sorry for those this hits, but I don't think the rule is horribly unreasonable (the financial requirements for each spouse). However, the short notice and the lack of grandfathering for those already well settled is just plain heartless and shows us again what kind of power we are dealing with.

[Sateev]

Sateev, that's real close to being a Troll post. No sod it, it is a troll post.

Yeah, it WAS in bad taste, considering the gravity of the topic.

I apologize, and really wasn't trolling, just a poor attempt at humor.

Sateev

[cgas2]

well i for one will take my baht elsewhere !!!!!!!!!

[Jingthing]

So a retiree can come live here (well, for now anyway),

far more serious is (if the rumour i heard several months ago is true) that the next step is to prove to immigration that the "show money" HAS BEEN SPENT.

This will never happen. You can take that to the bank. It would be impossible to monitor anyway, what are they going to do, ask to see all your receipts? You can easily just withdraw the money and recycle it somehow, even in a suitcase. I know of no country in the world that requires you to SPEND a specific amount; Thailand will not do this either.

However, something they might do, something that many countries do require, is to require us to TRANSFER in a FRESH certain amount (currently 800K) every year, for both bank account and pension qualifiers. If that happens, I will start shopping for air tickets out.

There have been a few posters saying they are doing this already to bank account qualifiers. I don't believe that is really the rule yet; I think those cases had something irregular with their banking histories that made the officers feel that the original 800K was never proved. But this change could happen, and if it does, it will effect many more people than today's ruling.

That will be the drup go over for most of the retirees .

Would be the most rediculous of all until now .

I think it will be unlikely though , like that the combination income / savings are not possible anymore also.

But you never know in Thailand .

I hope it doesn't happen. I agree if it happens, it will have a huge impact and a large exodus. However, I don't share your optimism because this exact same requirement is in effect in a number of other countries, such as Brazil, for their retirement visa programs. And from the point of view of getting as much money out of us that is possible, which appears to be a big part of any rule changes, it makes sense. If we transfer more in, more money is probably going to be spent here. Bad news, but don't be surprised if it comes.

[thaitoon]

for what its worth, and this may have already been posted, but you can get a years visa, from the thai embssy in your own country, [ie.uk for me], stipulation is you have to be 50 and over, i believe in the uk its £90, this entitles you to stay in thailand , but you have to leave every 90days, but the big plus is you don"t have to have a bank account with 800,000 b .in fact you dont have to have an account at all.

hope this helps.

[simon43]

OK, this is my take on the situation:

I think there IS a policy to steer immigration rules/requirements in a specific direction. I believe that the policy is to encourage immigration from foreigners who are willing to integrate 100% into the Thai community. Thailand does not to encourage immigration from foreigners who remain 'foreign'.

Why do I think this? Just consider some of the recent immigration/visa changes:

- Back-to-back tourist visas are restricted, (ie, Thailand does not want to encourage people who want to live in Thailand but don't want to 'settle' in the country, pay taxes etc

- A married couple need only to find 40,000 baht each month for a visa extension, and this can be a combination of salaries or even just from the Thai partner. (This I see as a policy to encourage foreigners to marry a Thai partner).

- Citizenship can be applied for after 5 years (and PR), as opposed to 5 years after PR. Thats a reduction in the timeline and is an encouragement for foreigners to go for citizenship.

- This retirement visa amendment that we are discussing, clearly does not encourage 'foreign-only' couples or families to settle in Thailand.

By pursuing a policy of foreigner-integration, Thailand will ensure that Thailand remains 'Thai'. A foreigner who marries a Thai partner may have children (who will be Thai). After that foreigner dies, we are left with a Thai partner (if still alive) and Thai children.

So, if my view is correct, we should expect to see further visa amendments that will encourage integration even further for those who marry Thai partners. (Remember that a foreign woman who marries a Thai man can go for PR/citizenship immediately). Such amendments could be easing of PR requirements for those who have children with a Thai partner. The flip side of the coin is that the single retiree may also be targeted for higher annual amounts in the bank account!

Simon