Thai Visas - Where Are The Rules?

[Andrew Hicks]

This website is a product of the lack of clear information about how to apply for a Thai visa, though it cannot and should not be a substitute for authoritative information direct from the Immigration Police.

I have just been the victim of that failure of information. On applying for the umpteenth time to renew my retirement visa, I did it exactly as I had done before (plus the additional three month requirement) but my papers were twice refused.

I now want to raise two naive queries.

1. Where are the visa rules and is there a version in Ehglish and how can I find it? Is there an official statement anywhere of what the rules are?

2. Is there any avenue of comminication between visa applicants and the Immigration Police? Similar authorities sometimes have a 'Users Committee' that raises relevant concerns. For example, the authorities could issue a statement addressed to the banks telling them the form of the information on bank accounts that they want to see. Explaining this to your bank is difficult when you yourself do not know!

I asked all this to the nice lady in the uniform at Suan Plu but she said that the rules change every day, there's no updated website and you just have to ask. Strangely, I believe that they want to provide an efficient service but it won't happen without a proper flow of information.

Any thoughts?

[Jai Dee]

Topic moved to Visa Forum.

/Moved.

[taxexile]

On applying for the umpteenth time to renew my retirement visa, I did it exactly as I had done before (plus the additional three month requirement) but my papers were twice refused.

why was your application refused this time ?

what were the changes that you were not complying with ?

[Mobi]

Andrew,

There are many of us out there who will be renewing our retirement extensions over the next few months, so we would really appreciate knowing why your application was refused twice.

Thanks very much

Mobi

[Yorkie]

I have just been the victim of that failure of information. On applying for the umpteenth time to renew my retirement visa, I did it exactly as I had done before (plus the additional three month requirement) but my papers were twice refused.

It would be of benefit to know why the extension was refused (twice?). I renewed my extension in June this year at Kab Cheong and there was no difference in the documents required from the previous years. And what is this "additional three month requirement"?

[tropo]

though it cannot and should not be a substitute for authoritative information direct from the Immigration Police.

Good luck finding authoritative information from them.

Believe it or not, reading this forum and learning form real life experiences of others will yield better results more often than not.

The bottom line is that there is no uniform enforcement of Thailand's Immigration rules and policy. Different Immigrations offices, consulates and embassies usually have their own unique interpretation on very loosely defined rules.

[Maestro]

...clear information about how to apply for a Thai visa...

I asked all this to the nice lady in the uniform at Suan Plu but she said that the rules change every day, there's no updated website and you just have to ask....

I see it like this:

1. The rules for visas are on the website of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Click here. The immigration offices in Thailand cannot give you accurate information about visas, which are a matter for the consulates to issue. The rules are clear, but different consulates interpret and apply them differently.

2. The current rules for extensions of stay are on the website of the Bureau of Immigration. Click here. Two English translations are available, one of Sunbelt, the other of the immigration bureau. Thai consulates cannot give you accurate information about extensions of stay, which are a matter for the immigration offices to handle.

3. The rules for extension are firm and do not change every day, but different immigration offices, and sometimes different officers at the same immigration office, may interpret and apply them differently, or the same officer may interpret them one one in the morning and a different way in the afternoon.

4. The website of the Bureau of Immigration is hopelessly outdated as regards extensions of stay (incorrectly called "visa extension" on that site). It does not yet reflect the changes brought about by the new Police Order 606/2549, which took effect on October 1, 2006.

--

Maestro

[Andrew Hicks]

though it cannot and should not be a substitute for authoritative information direct from the Immigration Police.

Good luck finding authoritative information from them.

Believe it or not, reading this forum and learning form real life experiences of others will yield better results more often than not.

The bottom line is that there is no uniform enforcement of Thailand's Immigration rules and policy. Different Immigrations offices, consulates and embassies usually have their own unique interpretation on very loosely defined rules.

I hear what you say but....!

Some areas such as retirement visas should be clear and simple and the key to not being messed around by changing and capricious interpretations of those rules by different officials is to know exactly what they say. So I return to my questions.... where are the rules and how do we get a translation if such does not already exist?

I went intp Suan Plu on Thursday and after a five hour wait was refused a visa as I did not produce a bank certificate that my sterling funds had been remitted from abroad, even though these transfers showed up in the statements. I was told to come back on Monday 1 October when the rules would have changed and I could have a visa. So does this now mean that a certificate of foreign source is no longer needed?

On Monday a different official said that while my bank certificate was clear, showing that I had had sufficient funds for more that three months, the supporting bank statements were not in the form she wanted. She was over-ruled by her superior and I got the visa but it was an unpleasant moment. I felt I was being messed around because I could not go to the rules on which these decisions were based.

Thaivisa forum is immensely valuable as a gloss, but I do not like relying on what is essentially anecdote and myth. The rules must be available somewhere.

Please help!

Andrew

[Mobi]

I hear what you say but....!

Some areas such as retirement visas should be clear and simple and the key to not being messed around by changing and capricious interpretations of those rules by different officials is to know exactly what they say. So I return to my questions.... where are the rules and how do we get a translation if such does not already exist?

I went intp Suan Plu on Thursday and after a five hour wait was refused a visa as I did not produce a bank certificate that my sterling funds had been remitted from abroad, even though these transfers showed up in the statements. I was told to come back on Monday 1 October when the rules would have changed and I could have a visa. So does this now mean that a certificate of foreign source is no longer needed?

On Monday a different official said that while my bank certificate was clear, showing that I had had sufficient funds for more that three months, the supporting bank statements were not in the form she wanted. She was over-ruled by her superior and I got the visa but it was an unpleasant moment. I felt I was being messed around because I could not go to the rules on which these decisions were based.

Thaivisa forum is immensely valuable as a gloss, but I do not like relying on what is essentially anecdote and myth. The rules must be available somewhere.

Please help!

Andrew

For the past 4 years I have had to produce such a certificate when renewing my visa both in Bangkok and Pattaya.

I suggest that you are the one who is out of step with the requirements.

BTW, it wasn't you who wrote this letter to the Bangkok Post the opther day was it?

If 100,000 foreigners spend 20,000 baht per month in Thailand, that's two billion baht per month. Most Thais are not rich and live on 3,000 to 4,000 baht per month. The Immigration Department demands that foreigners must have in their bank account 40,000 baht per month or 400,000 baht per year.

Most farangs' pensions are below this amount. If the Immigration Dept insists on this rule and refuses the one-year "O" visa, foreigners will spend their money in Cambodia and Malaysia.

Malaysia has tried to attract rich farangs and failed. Then they lowered the amount needed to stay, and foreigners from Thailand are now moving there. It is to Thailand's advantage if the government eases immigration requirements.

Also, every website that refers to Thai immigration requirements should have a stamp of approval from the Immigration Dept. Currently, websites have only misinformation and lies.

ANDREW

Stamp of approval from Immigration Dept?

Misinformation?

Lies?

What tosh!

I will leave it to others to point out the misinformation in your letter, assuming it was you??

[Kaojai]

For the past 4 years I have had to produce such a certificate when renewing my visa both in Bangkok and Pattaya.

I suggest that you are the one who is out of step with the requirements.

BTW, it wasn't you who wrote this letter to the Bangkok Post the opther day was it?

I will leave it to others to point out the misinformation in your letter, assuming it was you??

I saw that letter in the Bangkok Post too.

Regarding the 2 billion Baht bonanza plan for Thailand... why not go one step further and truck in 1,000,000 foreigners prepared to spend B2,000 a month? At some point the incremental costs to the economy and environment exceed the benefits.

Obviously every additional person in the country adds a further burden to the expense of providing policing, health services, sanitation, immigrations, maintaining basic infrastructure, etc. People living on less than B20,000 a month would likely be unprepared to pay for their health care needs and would probably consume a disproportionate amount of time from police and immigrations. That may sound elitist, but it's realistic.

There would undoubtedly be less negative impact on the environment and a greater net positive contribution to the economy if the government attracted 30,000 foreigners willing to spend a realistic B800,000 or more a year. If Malaysia and Cambodia are willing to accommodate people with less to spend, that doesn't mean Thailand needs to compete for them. More people buy Honda Civics than Accords, but Honda would not be better off selling more Accords at a Civic prices.

Additionally, someone with only $600 or 300 pounds a month to live on would be better off staying in his home country where social services would be available to assist him/her. Many Thai people may live on less per month, but they also have family support as well as government and social welfare services to help them.

I also agree that sometimes the visa rules, or their application, can be confusing, but it seems that quite often the things that trip people up are the same things that have been talked about at length here. The statement from the bank manager and copies from your bank passbook have been mentioned here numerous times. The documentation may not be specifically addressed in official notices, but it does seem that most offices have been requiring them for quite awhile to support the financial aspects of renewing.

[Ray1167]

OP - This Is Thailand . Get used to it . Stop Complaining. You are a guest in their country, don't forget.

[lungbing]

Look at that. Only 19 posts and he's got the official line off pat already.

[Gary A]

Well Andrew. If the rules and regulations were clear and concise there would be no need for the thousands of posts describing different rules at different offices and even different rules among immigration people in the same office. Today I got a step by step report via telephone from a friend of mine who got his retirement visa just yesterday from Suan Plu. He had his income verification letter from the US Embassy and it wasn't translated or legalized by the Thai government. The lady did ask him why he was in Bangkok rather than where he lives. He said he told her that he likes her better than the people in Krabi. His main bank is also in Bangkok and that's where his bank letter was from. He had no complaints and told me that other than the three hour wait, he had no problems.

[Maestro]

...So I return to my questions.... where are the rules and how do we get a translation if such does not already exist?...

And I repeat my answer:

...

1. The rules for visas are on the website of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Click here.

2. The current rules for extensions of stay are on the website of the Bureau of Immigration. Click here. Two English translations are available, one of Sunbelt, the other of the immigration bureau...

--

Maestro

[Andrew Hicks]

I hear what you say but....!

Some areas such as retirement visas should be clear and simple and the key to not being messed around by changing and capricious interpretations of those rules by different officials is to know exactly what they say. So I return to my questions.... where are the rules and how do we get a translation if such does not already exist?

I went intp Suan Plu on Thursday and after a five hour wait was refused a visa as I did not produce a bank certificate that my sterling funds had been remitted from abroad, even though these transfers showed up in the statements. I was told to come back on Monday 1 October when the rules would have changed and I could have a visa. So does this now mean that a certificate of foreign source is no longer needed?

On Monday a different official said that while my bank certificate was clear, showing that I had had sufficient funds for more that three months, the supporting bank statements were not in the form she wanted. She was over-ruled by her superior and I got the visa but it was an unpleasant moment. I felt I was being messed around because I could not go to the rules on which these decisions were based.

Thaivisa forum is immensely valuable as a gloss, but I do not like relying on what is essentially anecdote and myth. The rules must be available somewhere.

Please help!

Andrew

For the past 4 years I have had to produce such a certificate when renewing my visa both in Bangkok and Pattaya.

I suggest that you are the one who is out of step with the requirements.

BTW, it wasn't you who wrote this letter to the Bangkok Post the opther day was it?

If 100,000 foreigners spend 20,000 baht per month in Thailand, that's two billion baht per month. Most Thais are not rich and live on 3,000 to 4,000 baht per month. The Immigration Department demands that foreigners must have in their bank account 40,000 baht per month or 400,000 baht per year.

Most farangs' pensions are below this amount. If the Immigration Dept insists on this rule and refuses the one-year "O" visa, foreigners will spend their money in Cambodia and Malaysia.

Malaysia has tried to attract rich farangs and failed. Then they lowered the amount needed to stay, and foreigners from Thailand are now moving there. It is to Thailand's advantage if the government eases immigration requirements.

Also, every website that refers to Thai immigration requirements should have a stamp of approval from the Immigration Dept. Currently, websites have only misinformation and lies.

ANDREW

Stamp of approval from Immigration Dept?

Misinformation?

Lies?

What tosh!

I will leave it to others to point out the misinformation in your letter, assuming it was you??

Answering your points, I have always previously produced a letter from my bank showing a credit of 800,000 baht. They have never before asked for it to certify that the money had been remitted here from abroad.

Secondly, I too saw that letter in the Bangkok Post. I am not the only Andrew and not its writer and I disagree with its final point. This forum is immensely useful... I wouldn't otherwise be using it. I am very much in step!

Andrew Hicks

[Andrew Hicks]

...clear information about how to apply for a Thai visa...

I asked all this to the nice lady in the uniform at Suan Plu but she said that the rules change every day, there's no updated website and you just have to ask....

I see it like this:

1. The rules for visas are on the website of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Click here. The immigration offices in Thailand cannot give you accurate information about visas, which are a matter for the consulates to issue. The rules are clear, but different consulates interpret and apply them differently.

2. The current rules for extensions of stay are on the website of the Bureau of Immigration. Click here. Two English translations are available, one of Sunbelt, the other of the immigration bureau. Thai consulates cannot give you accurate information about extensions of stay, which are a matter for the immigration offices to handle.

3. The rules for extension are firm and do not change every day, but different immigration offices, and sometimes different officers at the same immigration office, may interpret and apply them differently, or the same officer may interpret them one one in the morning and a different way in the afternoon.

4. The website of the Bureau of Immigration is hopelessly outdated as regards extensions of stay (incorrectly called "visa extension" on that site). It does not yet reflect the changes brought about by the new Police Order 606/2549, which took effect on October 1, 2006.

--

Maestro

Thanks for this, Maestro. Exactly the answer I was hoping for.

You refer to the Police Order of 1 Oct 2006. I'm assuming you mean 1 Oct 2007, the day I got my visa extension. Which for me leaves the question of the content of this in relation to extending a retirement visa, though I don't have to worry for a bit!

So is there a translation of the order of 1 Oct 2007???

Andrew

[taxexile]

Police Order 606/2549, which took effect on October 1, 2006.

i would imagine that order 606/2549 refers to the year 2549 , which was 2006.

They have never before asked for it to certify that the money had been remitted here from abroad.

i have always been asked to show proof , in the form of a bank letter , that the money has been remitted from abroad.

[Jingthing]

Police Order 606/2549, which took effect on October 1, 2006.

i would imagine that order 606/2549 refers to the year 2549 , which was 2006.

They have never before asked for it to certify that the money had been remitted here from abroad.

i have always been asked to show proof , in the form of a bank letter , that the money has been remitted from abroad.

What immigration office do you use?

How do you know whats in the letter if its in Thai? What do you ask the bank? I thought the standard letter just states the balance and thats it.

[lopburi3]

The current extension of stay requirements are outlined in the Police Order 606 of last year (2006). There was no new order this year; although one had been expected.

[Mobi]

Police Order 606/2549, which took effect on October 1, 2006.

i would imagine that order 606/2549 refers to the year 2549 , which was 2006.

They have never before asked for it to certify that the money had been remitted here from abroad.

i have always been asked to show proof , in the form of a bank letter , that the money has been remitted from abroad.

What immigration office do you use?

How do you know whats in the letter if its in Thai? What do you ask the bank? I thought the standard letter just states the balance and thats it.

As far as I am aware, the standard bank letter (from Kasikorn anyway) states that the funds have been remitted from abroad. This was translated to me several years ago, and I always take a copy with me to ensure the new letter is the same.

[Jingthing]

Its all Greek to me. I wasn't aware those letters said anything about foreign transfer. Can anyone shed more light?

[Mobi]

Secondly, I too saw that letter in the Bangkok Post. I am not the only Andrew and not its writer and I disagree with its final point. This forum is immensely useful... I wouldn't otherwise be using it. I am very much in step!

Andrew Hicks

Sorry Andrew, I apologise.

It was quite a coincidence - two Andrews complaining about the same thing at the same time.

[Maestro]

The website of the Immigration Bureau, which has not yet been updated to reflect the changes brought about by Police Order 606/2549 valid since 1 October 2006, list the following requirements for an extension of stay for the reason of retirement (all highlighting mine):

Application for further stay to spend the remainder of life in the Kingdom of Thailand

Required Documents

1. Immigration form 7 (Tor Mor 7)

2. Copy of passport

3. 4 cm. X 6 cm. Photograph

4. 1,900 baht application fee

5. Financial Evidence:

1. Bank account pass-book, bank statement

2. Evidence showing reception of pension accompanied with Thai translation certified by the embassy or consulate of the country paying the pension

3. Evidence presenting other sources of income or evidence of money transferred from overseas

6. In cases of having dependents (husband / wife, children), the applicant must provide evidence indicating their relationship. Evidence must be translated into Thai and be certified by the embassy or consulate of the non-Thai citizens.

7. Health Certificate for those who apply for further stay after Nov. 14, 2002.

8. The officials reserve the rights to examine or ask for additional documents, if necessary

Applications Consideration

1. A foreign national must be older than 50 years old.

2. Not be a prohibit person.

3. Financial documents state one of the following

1. A deposite of 800,000 baht at least , or

2. A minimum income of 65,000 baht a month , or

3. A deposite pluses (monthly income x 12) not less than 800,000 baht.

4. The Health Certificate must indicate that the applicant does not have the following serious conditions:

1. Leprosy

2. Turberculosis, TB

3. Elephantiasis, Filariasis

4. Drug addiction

5. Alcoholism

6. Syphilis

The new rules, ie paragraph 7.21 of Police Order 606/2549, list the following for an extension of stay for retirement:

Reason of Necessary

7.21 Retirement

Each time of permission shall be granted for a period not exceeding 1 year.

Criteria

(1) Foreigner shall obtains VISA for temporary stay and,

(2) Shall not be younger than 50 years old and,

(3) Having evidence showing the monthly income not less than

65,000 Baht or,

(4) Having the records of saving money in the latest 3 months of account book of any Bank in Thailand not less than 800,000 Baht or,

(5) Having annual income combined with the saving money in the Bank not less than 800,000 Baht from on the date submitting the application.

(6) Foreign national who enters the Kingdom of Thailand before the 21st October 1998 and has been permitted to stay in Thailand in case retirement shall be applied to the criterions as follows:-

(a) Person who has the age from 60 years old and have the certain income, with the saving money in the Bank not less than 200,000 year per year and show the latest 3 months records of the passbook, or have the monthly income not less than 20,000 Baht.

( Person who has the age lower than 60 years old but not less than 55 years old who have the certain income with the saving money in the Bank not less than 500,000 Baht per year and show the latest 3 months records of the passbook, or have the monthly income not less than 50,000 Baht.

List of Documents

1. Application form

2. Copy of passport of the applicant

3. Evidences of having income, such as pension or interest of saving money, or dividends etc. and/ or,

4. Certified Letter of having a bank account with the Bank in Thailand and the passbook of the account.

5. Only for the Item (6), the Documents in Item 1 – 4 shall be required.

Old habits die slowly and from posts in this forum we know that some immigration officers continue to ask for a bank book and bank letter also when income is shown as financial evidence, even though the new rules do not require it. However, this is a small matter and the bank letter is available for a small fee.

Nowhere in the old or the new rules does it say that in the case of 800k in the bank being used as financial evidence you must show proof that the money was remitted from abroad. However, there is the requirement of “having the records of saving money...not less than 800,000 Baht”, meaning your money, not somebody else’s money. Normally, the foreigner comes from abroad to Thailand to retire, and the obvious way to show that this is his money is to show evidence of its remittance from abroad. If a foreigner earned, paid taxes and saved his money in Thailand, then applies for an extension for retirement based on 800k in the bank, I guess he could talk to immigration about an alternative way of proving that this is money from his own savings.

Another interesting point is that the new rules no longer give the immigration officials the right “to examine or ask for additional documents, if necessary”. However, you could consider a request for a map, even if only drawn by hand, as an extension of the requirement to indicate your address on the application form. Some places are really next to impossible to find without a detailed map. The simplest way today to create such map is to print it out from maps.google.com and place a marker where your residence is.

--

Maestro

[mojaco]

To Maestro,

That October 2006 Police Order doesn't refer to what to do for retirement in the case of having a dependent also (wife). Is the dependent option still available?

EDITED BY MOJACO: Oops! I now see that dependents are still covered in the 2006 Police order, so please ignore this question

Edited October 6, 2007 by mojaco

[Maestro]

...that dependents are still covered in the 2006 Police order...

Right. In Police Order 606/2549, dependents of of a person on an extension for retirement are covered by paragraph 7.19

--

Maestro

[PeaceBlondie]

Andrew, if you've been renewing your retirement visa for many years, and are a regular here on ThaiVisa, surely you know that the rules would not really be 'hard and fast' even if they were carved in stone and delivered on a fast train. I'll bet your initial post was due to the frustration of being refused twice for a renewal. Glad to hear that you finally got your renewal.

Perhaps ThaiVisa.com owes its existence to this very vagueness, this specific squishiness about visa issuances and renewals.

[Sunny Valentine]

Perhaps ThaiVisa.com owes its existence to this very vagueness, this specific squishiness about visa issuances and renewals.

Maybe thaivisa.com acts as a sponsor for all these rule madness, as it facilitates its commercial success ?

........ sorry, only a bad dream! Can't be!! Really!!! Impossible to even think of!!!!

Imagine George sitting with the leading immigration officers, drafting a new regulation ..... "Well, if you specify the 180 day rule like you do here ("a maximum of 180 during a calendar Year", it would be too easy for everyone and his dog to find out what his options are. How about "Not more than 90 Days within a period of a half Year"? As long as you don't define on which event this counting is based upon, our web forum will thrive, good for our shareholders ....."

No, said before: Bad dream only.

Hope I wake up soon!

Sunny

[PeaceBlondie]

I'll answer Sunny's bad dream. That squishiness and vagueness of the rules spawned ThaiVisa in the first place, and the Thai officials needed no help from ThaiVisa or Sunbelt to make it worse. If anything, we all have (hopefully dreaming) helped shine a spotlight on the difficulties of visa administration, and clarified some of what seemed unclarifiable.

[Andrew Hicks]

Andrew, if you've been renewing your retirement visa for many years, and are a regular here on ThaiVisa, surely you know that the rules would not really be 'hard and fast' even if they were carved in stone and delivered on a fast train. I'll bet your initial post was due to the frustration of being refused twice for a renewal. Glad to hear that you finally got your renewal.

Perhaps ThaiVisa.com owes its existence to this very vagueness, this specific squishiness about visa issuances and renewals.

Having first come to Thailand in the seventies, I think I know the score as to the relationship between the rules as enacted and their actual application. Even so, being able to go to the rules themselves is important. When a visa officer says no, you can withdraw graciously if they are clearly correct on the rules. If they are clearly wrong or within a grey area, then it's worth persisting.

One such grey area is whether it's necessary to show that the money supporting extension of a retirement visa was remitted from abroad. It's a sensible rule but one that seems to be in the minds of the visa officers rather than in the rules themselves.

On the other hand, I could work illegally in Thailand, send the money back to UK, then remit it back into Thailand to get the certificate.

Anyway, it's all an illusion and everything in life is impermanent and unsatisfactory!

Andrew

[Maestro]

...One such grey area is whether it's necessary to show that the money supporting extension of a retirement visa was remitted from abroad...

I don’t know what the original Thai text says, but I understand that for a retirement extension based on money in the bank the money must be from your savings. If you bring in cash, change it in Thailand and deposit it into your Thai bank account, you have no evidence to show to immigration that the money came from your savings.

--

Maestro