"the Expat Rose Colored Glasses Brigade"

[TonyLeung]

Here is another example. You have those Americans who say "To hel_l with the American government and their fiscal policies. The dollar has lost 25% of its value in a few years. Why are they spending so much money in Iraq? If I was president, the country would be in better shape. This isn't what I fought in WWII for. Where have you gone Joe Dimaggio?"

But then of course there are the Americans who traded their dollars for Euros and made 25%.

Some people insist on viewing themselves as a victim in every life situation that arises.

Edited November 12, 2007 by TonyLeung

[TonyLeung]

Personally, the biggest frustration living in Thailand for me is the temptation to stray. I go to get breakfast and by the time I get back home I have to pour a bucket of ice down my pants. I find 80% of the women under 40 very attractive, it can be almost over whelming sometimes.

[PeaceBlondie]

Maybe it wasn't Herbert Hoover, but Bernard Baruch.

I agree that much of our failure or success anywhere in life is due to our own choices and actions. However, much of it is caused by external factors, so it's not all our fault. It's popular now to accuse anybody of 'playing the victim' simply because they point out that it wasn't entirely their own fault.

[TonyLeung]

I'd say that black folks in America get a better deal. Bling bling!

This joke went over my head. Huh?

[naka]

Well bingobongo, you may consider my brainwashed but as I said previously it is my temprement to look for the positive in life.

I'll tell you a story,

in my early twenties I was a homeless drunk guy on the streets of London.

This wasn't really for me so I decided to literally pull myself out of the gutter.

I was penniless, but I made a success out of my life; because you see even in the gutter I could see the positive in life.

If I had listened the negative people, such as those on Thai Visa, I would still be lying in the gutter covered in my own sick and shit.

I have seen first hand the power that positivity can have on on my llfe and I have learnt to avoid negative types.

I love my life and believe it is my attitude, not the place, that makes me happy.

When I share my positive feelings on this forum I have my intelligence questioned.

Their jibes do not bother me as I have dealt with these types all my life.

Some people do have genuine complaints and air them on TV but their are others who feed on this negativity.

Good post mate and so true!

Beware though the "born with a silver chopstick up their arse crew" will try to bring you down as will the "today is not important , work your arse off in hel_l and retire happy lot"

And now we see the "Tall Poppy Syndrome"

Naka.

[otton]

Point. Match.

Actually the question was academic.

I knew I would be insulted and criticized by members without them being chastised.

I was just curious to see to what degree...

Well, since you have been around Thai message boards (this one, at least) for a while already, you should have realized that there are 2 fundamental differences between the Thai realists and the Thai apologists: most of the latter have a definite tendency to try to SILENCE the former (and they mostly succeed in that on many of these boards, luckily there still is the real life ) and a nasty attitude to attack the messenger and not the message. That alone says to any neutral honest intelligent observer all it needs to be said (I don't dare to say it anymore)...

Edited November 12, 2007 by otton

[mpdkorat]

If you have bad experiences in Thailand, they came at the expense of your own choices and freewill.

If you choose the wrong woman(women) to marry, its your fault.

If you opened a business and found that you couldn't manage Thai employees because they are not as smart as you, its your fault.

If the pool guys over charged you and installed inferior products, its your fault.

If you got in a fight with a tuk tuk driver over 20 baht and he stabbed you, its your fault.

Looking up to the heavens and thinking of yourself as the underdog isn't going to help things. There is never any reason to complain about anything in this world. Being jealous of people who have had more satisfying experiences than yourself also won't help you.

I agree with you totally. I have lost in Thailand, both emotionally and financially. Its always been my fault. I've been here over 10 years now and consider myself to be in SBK's third stage. I made most of my mistakes in the first stage and spent little or no time in the second stage. I speak reasonable Thai and have made the effort to integrate into the local community. Is Thailand perfect? Of course its not, but I'm quite content living here and hope to continue to do so.

[Neeranam]

Well bingobongo, you may consider my brainwashed but as I said previously it is my temprement to look for the positive in life.

I'll tell you a story,

in my early twenties I was a homeless drunk guy on the streets of London.

This wasn't really for me so I decided to literally pull myself out of the gutter.

I was penniless, but I made a success out of my life; because you see even in the gutter I could see the positive in life.

If I had listened the negative people, such as those on Thai Visa, I would still be lying in the gutter covered in my own sick and shit.

I have seen first hand the power that positivity can have on on my llfe and I have learnt to avoid negative types.

I love my life and believe it is my attitude, not the place, that makes me happy.

When I share my positive feelings on this forum I have my intelligence questioned.

Their jibes do not bother me as I have dealt with these types all my life.

Some people do have genuine complaints and air them on TV but their are others who feed on this negativity.

Good post mate and so true!

Beware though the "born with a silver chopstick up their arse crew" will try to bring you down as will the "today is not important , work your arse off in hel_l and retire happy lot"

And now we see the "Tall Poppy Syndrome"

Naka.

There is a big difference between "success" and "snobbery and arrogance". Please explain why you think yourself superior than Garro(or maybe me) because you have material wealth.

Garro's story = success, in my mind.

[GuestHouse]

I think if you read any one individual's posts on a variety of subjects you'll find most people are pretty evenly balanced around the good and bad of Thailand.

But of course some people are unbalanced in their views of Thailand and for their very own reasons (I suspect because of reasons they brought with them before they ever set foot in the place).

I find people who are wholly negative just as disagreable as people who are wholly possitive, both are ignoring the reality that life anywhere is a mixture of good and bad - both are commenting on the basis of blind predjudice.

[TonyLeung]

i think the difference is that while some people consider something a 'big negative' others just shrug their shoulders.

for example, of course i dislike pollution and heavy traffic, but i wouldn't start a thread on ThaiVisa complaining about it and i don't give it much thought.

it kind of gets on my nerves when i go into a store and ten people hover over me and point at each product.

there is a heavy import tax on electronics and overall lack of selection.

no butterfingers for sale anywhere in the country.

if i went back to the usa i could buy cheap electronics and butterfingers but then i would be complaining about the low quality of the sum tum.

no two places are the same, thats why they have different names.

[TheDon]

Dont forget people have different experiences, so opinions will be different too.

Some people just take different opinions too close to heart

[Heng]

I'd say that black folks in America get a better deal. Bling bling!

This joke went over my head. Huh?

Mine was a response to this post:

bali was very laid back; spiritual, bkk was full on; grab for cash. I got a kick out of seeing the tuk tuk and the elephants on the street, the lady boys, the malls, the food, being looked at and treated like a dirty black man in america etc....

I wasn't making a joke. More like a playful jab (or the local version... a playful handful of chili powder in your noodles) with the reasoning being that black folks in America at the very least don't have to leave the US every 90 days, CAN own property, CAN vote, etc.

[kat]

Well bingobongo, you may consider my brainwashed but as I said previously it is my temprement to look for the positive in life.

I'll tell you a story,

in my early twenties I was a homeless drunk guy on the streets of London.

This wasn't really for me so I decided to literally pull myself out of the gutter.

I was penniless, but I made a success out of my life; because you see even in the gutter I could see the positive in life.

If I had listened the negative people, such as those on Thai Visa, I would still be lying in the gutter covered in my own sick and shit.

I have seen first hand the power that positivity can have on on my llfe and I have learnt to avoid negative types.

I love my life and believe it is my attitude, not the place, that makes me happy.

When I share my positive feelings on this forum I have my intelligence questioned.

Their jibes do not bother me as I have dealt with these types all my life.

Some people do have genuine complaints and air them on TV but their are others who feed on this negativity.

Good post mate and so true!

Beware though the "born with a silver chopstick up their arse crew" will try to bring you down as will the "today is not important , work your arse off in hel_l and retire happy lot"

And now we see the "Tall Poppy Syndrome"

Naka.

It's fairly incredible - I agree with you, Naka. No one is trying to cut anyone down, I just would like people to be responsible for their own arguments in an honest discussion. It's pretty simple: if you don't want others to respond with condescension, then don't start with it. You know the saying, "everything that we need in life we learned in kindergarten."

Point. Match.

Actually the question was academic.

I knew I would be insulted and criticized by members without them being chastised.

I was just curious to see to what degree...

Well, since you have been around Thai message boards (this one, at least) for a while already, you should have realized that there are 2 fundamental differences between the Thai realists and the Thai apologists: most of the latter have a definite tendency to try to SILENCE the former (and they mostly succeed in that on many of these boards, luckily there still is the real life ) and a nasty attitude to attack the messenger and not the message. That alone says to any neutral honest intelligent observer all it needs to be said (I don't dare to say it anymore)...

Yes, you are absolutely right otton, and there is quite a psychology here. It doesn't matter what is said, substantiated, logically proven with evidence or explained by experience, there is very little chance of having a rational discussion on this board.

i think the difference is that while some people consider something a 'big negative' others just shrug their shoulders.

for example, of course i dislike pollution and heavy traffic, but i wouldn't start a thread on ThaiVisa complaining about it and i don't give it much thought.

it kind of gets on my nerves when i go into a store and ten people hover over me and point at each product.

there is a heavy import tax on electronics and overall lack of selection.

no butterfingers for sale anywhere in the country.

if i went back to the usa i could buy cheap electronics and butterfingers but then i would be complaining about the low quality of the sum tum.

no two places are the same, thats why they have different names.

no butterfingers, huh? That's too bad. I hope you are able to find plenty of ice.

[naka]

Well bingobongo, you may consider my brainwashed but as I said previously it is my temprement to look for the positive in life.

I'll tell you a story,

in my early twenties I was a homeless drunk guy on the streets of London.

This wasn't really for me so I decided to literally pull myself out of the gutter.

I was penniless, but I made a success out of my life; because you see even in the gutter I could see the positive in life.

If I had listened the negative people, such as those on Thai Visa, I would still be lying in the gutter covered in my own sick and shit.

I have seen first hand the power that positivity can have on on my llfe and I have learnt to avoid negative types.

I love my life and believe it is my attitude, not the place, that makes me happy.

When I share my positive feelings on this forum I have my intelligence questioned.

Their jibes do not bother me as I have dealt with these types all my life.

Some people do have genuine complaints and air them on TV but their are others who feed on this negativity.

Good post mate and so true!

Beware though the "born with a silver chopstick up their arse crew" will try to bring you down as will the "today is not important , work your arse off in hel_l and retire happy lot"

And now we see the "Tall Poppy Syndrome"

Naka.

There is a big difference between "success" and "snobbery and arrogance". Please explain why you think yourself superior than Garro(or maybe me) because you have material wealth.

Garro's story = success, in my mind.

Never thought of myself as "superior" having said that I consider myself sucessful.

However, many of your post contain aspects of "reverse snobbery".

For years you have been telling all and sundry how good it is to live on a pittance, not to mention

all your boasts about being a user.

You rant at Guesthouse simply because he has indicated that he has a sucessful career, why does this irritate you so ?

Why do you think material wealth is such a bad thing ?

Naka.

[mrtoad]

<deleted>, has material wealth got to do with how people perceive Thailand? What a load of BS. Who cares? Surely success is about self fufillment and being contented with ones life. In the end these p%ssing contests are no different than the my dads bigger than yours, that people used when they were 6 years of age.

[tiger50]

Kat out of all the people who have taken part in this discussion, you are the only one, who has shown wisdom and maturity, understanding human nature.

I still live in LOS as i am married and have a child at school, and am doing well also buying and renting condo's. I do not intend to get a bus to Cambodia, as one YELLOW SHIRT suggested, as i have responsibilities here, and have the intelligence and resources to change when i am ready.

Also i did mention that my home country has problems, as Thailand has, but as i am a person who has travelled extensively, and worked in different countries, i think i qualify to have an opinion, when i say Thailand stinks! I can form this opinion even though i am doing well here. My example of a good country to live in would be Sweden, where i have lived and worked. So i make my comparrisons on past experiences.

What i have found funny, is as you mentioned Kat, is others presuming, that one must be a faliure if they have a bad opinion of Thailand.

[kat]

Kat out of all the people who have taken part in this discussion, you are the only one, who has shown wisdom and maturity, understanding human nature.

I still live in LOS as i am married and have a child at school, and am doing well also buying and renting condo's. I do not intend to get a bus to Cambodia, as one YELLOW SHIRT suggested, as i have responsibilities here, and have the intelligence and resources to change when i am ready.

Also i did mention that my home country has problems, as Thailand has, but as i am a person who has travelled extensively, and worked in different countries, i think i qualify to have an opinion, when i say Thailand stinks! I can form this opinion even though i am doing well here. My example of a good country to live in would be Sweden, where i have lived and worked. So i make my comparrisons on past experiences.

What i have found funny, is as you mentioned Kat, is others presuming, that one must be a faliure if they have a bad opinion of Thailand.

Thanks Tiger50, that's really sweet of you. I think there are many people on this forum who display wisdom and maturity, even some with whom I disagree. I don't even think Thailand stinks, but I can accept your opinion and different experience. My main issue here is being able to have an open discussion with diversity of opinions, experiences, and substantiated facts, without the discussion degenerating into personal insults or cries of victimization, or the amorphous, non-starter refrain: "it's all the same everywhere," over, and over again. *Both responses have a way of trying to snuff out any kind of genuine discussion.

Edited November 12, 2007 by kat

[WaiWai]

the non-starter refrain: "it's all the same everywhere,"

I particularly dislike that one, too. Related is, "Why are we picking on the Thais? They are not the only ones who do that."

The discussion has been interesting at points. Hope it can now return to the primary topic.

[tiger50]

Kat out of all the people who have taken part in this discussion, you are the only one, who has shown wisdom and maturity, understanding human nature.

I still live in LOS as i am married and have a child at school, and am doing well also buying and renting condo's. I do not intend to get a bus to Cambodia, as one YELLOW SHIRT suggested, as i have responsibilities here, and have the intelligence and resources to change when i am ready.

Also i did mention that my home country has problems, as Thailand has, but as i am a person who has travelled extensively, and worked in different countries, i think i qualify to have an opinion, when i say Thailand stinks! I can form this opinion even though i am doing well here. My example of a good country to live in would be Sweden, where i have lived and worked. So i make my comparrisons on past experiences.

What i have found funny, is as you mentioned Kat, is others presuming, that one must be a faliure if they have a bad opinion of Thailand.

Thanks Tiger50, that's really sweet of you. I think there are many people on this forum who display wisdom and maturity, even some with whom I disagree. I don't even think Thailand stinks, but I can accept your opinion and different experience. My main issue here is being able to have an open discussion with diversity of opinions, experiences, and substantiated facts, without the discussion degenerating into personal insults or cries of victimization, or the amorphous, non-starter refrain: "it's all the same everywhere," over, and over again. *Both responses have a way of trying to snuff out any kind of genuine discussion.

AGREE, AND IF EVERYONE APPROACHED IT IN THAT WAY IT WOULD BE MORE HELPFULL.

[simon43]

I place myself squarely in the Thai Realist camp. From my viewpoint, Thailand has many (MANY!!) failings and problems which I cannot hope to change or rectify. So the only question that I have to satisfy is 'Can I accept and be happy in this situation?'. If I cannot accept it, then I should leave the country.

I am realistic enough to accept what I see are failings. No country or person is perfect - usually far from perfect!

And since there is little point worrying or getting angry or frustrated over something that I cannot change - I am happy

Simon

[ignoramus]

Neeranam (love your avatar), I think it was you who said that garro's story was a success story. I agree with your statement. I want to state that it is indisputably a fact that garro's story is a success story. The level of self-insight required to, firstly, recognise that one has a problem, secondly accept responsibility for it, and thirdly act upon it is of the Very Highest Order. It would warrant Graduation with Honours and 5 gold stars from AA (q.v. their 'steps'), or any other authority in such matters, for that matter.

Few possess such intellectual honesty and self-insight, fewer still possess the courage to go so far as to act upon same, and turn their lives around. The courage to help others is not completely uncommon, but the courage to help (love) oneself is relatively rare for whom it had hitherto not been the MO.

Who amongst us, who are too overweight, who smoke too much, who can't control out self-sabotage, are able or if able, willing, to act with courage to change ourselves? Not me - I read Krishnamurti, but can't handle his steely-eyed look into my soul. Those who do not understand this fundamental point exist in a parallel universe. Rich, perhaps famous, perhaps admired by many, but still missing the point. Still, forever, always, in parallel.

madjbs - you understand garro; you get it. mpdkorat - love your avatar (what a delightful face); you get it. TheDon - you too get it. To whomever it was who got a 'yawn' out of garro - you may have more in common than you realise with the person garro was than the person he now is. (Some smartypants said that the faults we deride in others should give us pause for thought about ouselves). I make no judgment about you - who the h__l am I anyway - I possess faults aplenty.

TonyLeung - 80% under 40 do it for you? Wow. I looked you up to no avail - please insert your domicile in your profile, if it's not a cherished secret. I shall be visiting again soon, and need a pointer or three. Hmmm, maybe I'll fly away tomorrow.

Such interesting and stimulating posts in TV. I'll get out of your way now.

[fletchsmile]

1) The Purpose of Life is Happiness - HH DL

2) The only serious philosophical question is suicide - AC

3) Let he without sin cast the first stone - JC

4) Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself - C

There seem to be a lot of posters who like to provoke, flame and troll other people on TV - just for the sake of it. I guess there's a lot of people who don't agree with the first two statements. As for the second two - well let's just say we seem to have a lot of masochistic saints on here.

Oh and BTW: people in glass houses......

should dress in the basement - NW

[JimmyCA]

Thailand has a lot of warts. There is no doubt about that and sometimes I complain too much. The best way to cure myself from complaining is to go for a visit in my Politically correct home country. I take a good look at the prices and all the laws and BS. That certainly makes the problems here seem trivial indeed. I am always VERY happy to get back to Thailand. It works for me.

Yes, absolutely .... and vice versa

[JimmyCA]

This has syndrome has been mentioned from time to time here on TV.

How prevalent is it today?

It is widespread! While living in Thailand overall may be great, it cannot be denied that some of what happens here is weird, strange or sometimes just wrong.

What annoys me is that some people simply see the country as perfect. It isn't. Everywhere has its problems... Just pointing out what problem does not mean that overall you don't like living here. But some people don't see it that way. Any negative comment about Thailand they see as a negative comment about them. Taking things so personally is a sign of serious insecurity.

Yes, spoken like someone who knows a thing or two. It is amazing farangs buying into this "thailand is perfect" rubbish and how quickly they slag off on anyone who does not buy into their illusion.

Your relationship with Thailand .... whatever it is .... sex, "love", food, climate culture .... will end whan your money ends.

[Neeranam]

For years you have been telling all and sundry how good it is to live on a pittance, not to mention

all your boasts about being a user.

No I haven't - I said it's possible to live a good life on 30,000 a month. Now I earn a lot more and am not particularly happier because of it.

I'm not a user, and I were, I certainly wouldn't boast about it. I haven't had any mind-altering drug or alcohol for many years.

[Pepe']

That's ok, Pepe. Anyway, to answer the question of this thread: a very resounding YES. But, since it is visible and controversial on just about every thread here, I can't be bothered with more than the glib comment right now.

-------------------

Hi Kat

I'm not the "sharpest tool in the shed" so it takes me a little while sometimes to catch on.

Is your signature Beatles lyrics?...

[kat]

Hi Pepe':

The profile signature is John Lennon, and the signature on my avatar is REM, "Losing My Religion."

[Pepe']

I think there are negatives and positives to everything, but this is a forum that primarily deals with the foreign experience of Thailand, full stop. I find it incredible that Westerners who come from a culture of open differences of opinion and experience berate others or try to control the flow of thought to how they think things SHOULD be conducted and viewed. What some may see as bitching is just a matter of honest and open discussion to others. I see that viewpoint as the most controlling element here, not vice versa.

As for people from all over the world joining in on this thread, well, I hate to break it to you, but that's the internet. Secondly, people may live in other places but still have attachments or investments in Thailand, such as marriages, relationships, work, research, interests - there is no need for a justification. If you have lived in a place for some time and have established relationships or experiences, then understanding the place and the culture is a lifelong pursuit. Furthermore, since there is such a split along these lines on almost every discussion thread, the OP's topic is perfectly relevant, and very much within the bounds of the forum and decency. If you are having such a problem with this thread and other's opinion, then perhaps you should follow your own advice and avoid those whose comments you don't like, or avoid the thread. This is how adults co-exist in the world.

Of course, there is the option of discussion and offering your dissent, which is what the thread offers in the first place.

I find it childish that people on this forum see a need for others to justify or explain this over and over again.

*So, Grow up.

--------------------------

Wow Kat!

I wish you were running in the US Presidential election!

At least we would have one viable candidate!

And I would definitely vote again...

[kat]

oh, no, you guys - Pepe' - now we've gone to far There is NO way I'm a politician, as many would've guessed by now.

*And I'm done with these arguments, Pepe', so don't try to stir the flames. It is all there in the posts, but yet many continue to insult, insinuate, make fake intellectual arguments or cry victim to have any kind of discussion. But, it is a fascinating example of the dynamics that exist among foreigners here, so thanks for the thread.

Edited November 12, 2007 by kat

[Pepe']

Point. Match.

Actually the question was academic.

I knew I would be insulted and criticized by members without them being chastised.

I was just curious to see to what degree...

Well, since you have been around Thai message boards (this one, at least) for a while already, you should have realized that there are 2 fundamental differences between the Thai realists and the Thai apologists: most of the latter have a definite tendency to try to SILENCE the former (and they mostly succeed in that on many of these boards, luckily there still is the real life ) and a nasty attitude to attack the messenger and not the message. That alone says to any neutral honest intelligent observer all it needs to be said (I don't dare to say it anymore)...

---------------------------

Thanks for stating this so succinctly...

You are a wise person...