"the Expat Rose Colored Glasses Brigade"

[garro]

Mr Padthai

You seem a little obsessed with how long people have been here. How long have you been here then? BTW spending 50 years on a bar stool doesn't qualify people to become a Thailand guru (no matter how much they think they are one).

Experience counts for somthing, no?

It puts perspective on comments from arrogant from new arrivals like Bendix.

By the way, I don't drink.

From reading your posts on this thread I have the impression that you have lived here at least twenty years.

If this is not the case, you are going to seem like a bit of a tosser for your criticism of Bendix.

Yes, how long have you been here PadThaiGuy? You side-stepped garro's question nicely.

To everyone else who dismiss me as a rose-tinted new arrivalist. I'm so sorry for being happy and failing to fall in with the self-pitying 'my life isnt going the way it should' hegemony so favoured on Thaivisa.

I'm sure after a few more years I'll be as bitter and wretched as everyone feels I should be. Of course, by then I'll probably do the rational thing and leave, rather than wallow in it.

Yes, PadThaiGuy - how long have you been here?

Do you have a good income to let you do as you please? Or are you unable to go home to your country of birth and so feel trapped here?

My first trip to Thailand was in 78.

Money is no problem.(thanks Calif real estate)

Taking a trip somewhere is completely different from living there.

I went to France with my parents in the early seventies, but I don't impress many people with my knowledge of France

Saying you came to Thailand in '78 for a trip, or indeed '71, tells me more about your age than your knowledge of Thailand.

Edited November 11, 2007 by garro

[fletchsmile]

The term 'A Fools Paradise" comes to mind.

There are in general only three kinds of farang: newbies too stupid to know what they're talking about, CTBs (Chronic Thai-Bashers) and KJDs (Knee-Jerk Defenders). All three sorts have the same average intelligence, but the KJDs have a much higher capacity for self-deception.

Thank you for your wisdom and guidance. But I'm feeling very uncertain with my life now.

I see some good and some bad in Thailand - very strange habit I guess, but I have the same problem everywhere I go, not just Thailand . I guess that means I can't be be a CTB or a KJD.

I don't think I'm a newbie either - having spent about 7 of the last 10 years here. Could you confirm this? Maybe I'm an old fool, as I've heard "there's no fool like an old fool". But I'm not old either. I sort of guessed it isn't really paradise in Thailand. Have I gone up in your ratings scales for that at least? So you can see my dilemmas and concern. Could you help me find a stereotype that fits me a bit better? How can I make sure whether my intelligence is average or not?

I read Alice in Wonderland, and even the sequel, but your advice reminded me more of Voltaire's Candide. I feel I can really relate to Candide now. Should I move to somewhere near you guys so I can better understand? I know great philosophers like you must live in "the best possible of all worlds"? Is your real name Pangloss?

So many questions...

Edited November 11, 2007 by fletchthai68

[markwhite]

I've noticed that there are 3 stages to life in Thailand for the expat. Some people never get out of stage 1, some never get past stage 2.

Maybe you could've stopped after '..there are three stages in life.' ;-)

[stickman]

This has syndrome has been mentioned from time to time here on TV.

How prevalent is it today?

It is widespread! While living in Thailand overall may be great, it cannot be denied that some of what happens here is weird, strange or sometimes just wrong.

What annoys me is that some people simply see the country as perfect. It isn't. Everywhere has its problems... Just pointing out what problem does not mean that overall you don't like living here. But some people don't see it that way. Any negative comment about Thailand they see as a negative comment about them. Taking things so personally is a sign of serious insecurity.

[Neeranam]

The term 'A Fools Paradise" comes to mind.

There are in general only three kinds of farang: newbies too stupid to know what they're talking about, CTBs (Chronic Thai-Bashers) and KJDs (Knee-Jerk Defenders). All three sorts have the same average intelligence, but the KJDs have a much higher capacity for self-deception.

Thank you for your wisdom and guidance. But I'm feeling very uncertain with my life now.

I see some good and some bad in Thailand - very strange habit I guess, but I have the same problem everywhere I go, not just Thailand . I guess that means I can't be be a CTB or a KJD.

I don't think I'm a newbie either - having spent about 7 of the last 10 years here. Could you confirm this? Maybe I'm an old fool, as I've heard "there's no fool like an old fool". But I'm not old either. I sort of guessed it isn't really paradise in Thailand. Have I gone up in your ratings scales for that at least? So you can see my dilemmas and concern. Could you help me find a stereotype that fits me a bit better? How can I make sure whether my intelligence is average or not?

I read Alice in Wonderland, and even the sequel, but your advice reminded me more of Voltaire's Candide. I feel I can really relate to Candide now. Should I move to somewhere near you guys so I can better understand? I know great philosophers like you must live in "the best possible of all worlds"? Is your real name Pangloss?

So many questions...

4. Ones who have been here over 5 years living upcountry, who've ttotally lost the plot.

[PadThaiGuy]

Mr Padthai

You seem a little obsessed with how long people have been here. How long have you been here then? BTW spending 50 years on a bar stool doesn't qualify people to become a Thailand guru (no matter how much they think they are one).

Experience counts for somthing, no?

It puts perspective on comments from arrogant from new arrivals like Bendix.

By the way, I don't drink.

From reading your posts on this thread I have the impression that you have lived here at least twenty years.

If this is not the case, you are going to seem like a bit of a tosser for your criticism of Bendix.

Yes, how long have you been here PadThaiGuy? You side-stepped garro's question nicely.

To everyone else who dismiss me as a rose-tinted new arrivalist. I'm so sorry for being happy and failing to fall in with the self-pitying 'my life isnt going the way it should' hegemony so favoured on Thaivisa.

I'm sure after a few more years I'll be as bitter and wretched as everyone feels I should be. Of course, by then I'll probably do the rational thing and leave, rather than wallow in it.

Yes, PadThaiGuy - how long have you been here?

Do you have a good income to let you do as you please? Or are you unable to go home to your country of birth and so feel trapped here?

My first trip to Thailand was in 78.

Money is no problem.(thanks Calif real estate)

Taking a trip somewhere is completely different from living there.

I went to France with my parents in the early seventies, but I don't impress many people with my knowledge of France

Saying you came to Thailand in '78 for a trip, or indeed '71, tells me more about your age than your knowledge of Thailand.

Permanent since 1991.

Started Companies, rented/remodeled several offices and condos. Been married and divorced.

Imported many items, been involved with charities, partnerships, police and even been in Thai Court a couple times. Attended countless marriages and funerals. Been a guest at a Royal dinner(Patuwan Palace) and have friends in high places(one is living in London)

Been ripped off a couple times and seen thousands of people scammed and taken advantage of over the years, including many friends and relatives.

Can spot a blowhard in a fraction of a second. That's why I give bendix a hard time.

[mellow1]

With me it depends on what's going on, if everything is well then I see things through rose colored glasses. If I get stopped by the boys in brown in order to get a donation, or a vendor tries to overcharge me, the glasses come off and I bash. I know its not good to have these types of emotional swings, but I put it off to being human. As for money, I have never experienced a surplus, I can always use more, weird isn't it.

[garro]

Mr Padthai

You seem a little obsessed with how long people have been here. How long have you been here then? BTW spending 50 years on a bar stool doesn't qualify people to become a Thailand guru (no matter how much they think they are one).

Experience counts for somthing, no?

It puts perspective on comments from arrogant from new arrivals like Bendix.

By the way, I don't drink.

From reading your posts on this thread I have the impression that you have lived here at least twenty years.

If this is not the case, you are going to seem like a bit of a tosser for your criticism of Bendix.

Yes, how long have you been here PadThaiGuy? You side-stepped garro's question nicely.

To everyone else who dismiss me as a rose-tinted new arrivalist. I'm so sorry for being happy and failing to fall in with the self-pitying 'my life isnt going the way it should' hegemony so favoured on Thaivisa.

I'm sure after a few more years I'll be as bitter and wretched as everyone feels I should be. Of course, by then I'll probably do the rational thing and leave, rather than wallow in it.

Yes, PadThaiGuy - how long have you been here?

Do you have a good income to let you do as you please? Or are you unable to go home to your country of birth and so feel trapped here?

My first trip to Thailand was in 78.

Money is no problem.(thanks Calif real estate)

Taking a trip somewhere is completely different from living there.

I went to France with my parents in the early seventies, but I don't impress many people with my knowledge of France

Saying you came to Thailand in '78 for a trip, or indeed '71, tells me more about your age than your knowledge of Thailand.

Permanent since 1991.

Started Companies, rented/remodeled several offices and condos. Been married and divorced.

Imported many items, been involved with charities, partnerships, police and even been in Thai Court a couple times. Attended countless marriages and funerals. Been a guest at a Royal dinner(Patuwan Palace) and have friends in high places(one is living in London)

Been ripped off a couple times and seen thousands of people scammed and taken advantage of over the years, including many friends and relatives.

Can spot a blowhard in a fraction of a second. That's why I give bendix a hard time.

If you have lived here since 1991 then you should have a good grasp of the country; or at least the part you live in.

I personally wouldn't live somewhere for sixteen years unless I felt good about the place.

If I begin to spend my time moaning about the place I will know that it is time for me to leave.

Mind you I think that my life can be happy and content anywhere; except perhaps Saudi.

[fletchsmile]

The term 'A Fools Paradise" comes to mind.

There are in general only three kinds of farang: newbies too stupid to know what they're talking about, CTBs (Chronic Thai-Bashers) and KJDs (Knee-Jerk Defenders). All three sorts have the same average intelligence, but the KJDs have a much higher capacity for self-deception.

Thank you for your wisdom and guidance. But I'm feeling very uncertain with my life now.

I see some good and some bad in Thailand - very strange habit I guess, but I have the same problem everywhere I go, not just Thailand . I guess that means I can't be be a CTB or a KJD.

I don't think I'm a newbie either - having spent about 7 of the last 10 years here. Could you confirm this? Maybe I'm an old fool, as I've heard "there's no fool like an old fool". But I'm not old either. I sort of guessed it isn't really paradise in Thailand. Have I gone up in your ratings scales for that at least? So you can see my dilemmas and concern. Could you help me find a stereotype that fits me a bit better? How can I make sure whether my intelligence is average or not?

I read Alice in Wonderland, and even the sequel, but your advice reminded me more of Voltaire's Candide. I feel I can really relate to Candide now. Should I move to somewhere near you guys so I can better understand? I know great philosophers like you must live in "the best possible of all worlds"? Is your real name Pangloss?

So many questions...

4. Ones who have been here over 5 years living upcountry, who've ttotally lost the plot.

Has my wife been showing you our retirement plans? BTW is it really losing the plot if you choose to lose the plot?

Edited November 11, 2007 by fletchthai68

[meemiathai]

Mr Padthai

You seem a little obsessed with how long people have been here. How long have you been here then? BTW spending 50 years on a bar stool doesn't qualify people to become a Thailand guru (no matter how much they think they are one).

Experience counts for somthing, no?

It puts perspective on comments from arrogant from new arrivals like Bendix.

By the way, I don't drink.

From reading your posts on this thread I have the impression that you have lived here at least twenty years.

If this is not the case, you are going to seem like a bit of a tosser for your criticism of Bendix.

Yes, how long have you been here PadThaiGuy? You side-stepped garro's question nicely.

To everyone else who dismiss me as a rose-tinted new arrivalist. I'm so sorry for being happy and failing to fall in with the self-pitying 'my life isnt going the way it should' hegemony so favoured on Thaivisa.

I'm sure after a few more years I'll be as bitter and wretched as everyone feels I should be. Of course, by then I'll probably do the rational thing and leave, rather than wallow in it.

Yes, PadThaiGuy - how long have you been here?

Do you have a good income to let you do as you please? Or are you unable to go home to your country of birth and so feel trapped here?

My first trip to Thailand was in 78.

Money is no problem.(thanks Calif real estate)

Taking a trip somewhere is completely different from living there.

I went to France with my parents in the early seventies, but I don't impress many people with my knowledge of France

Saying you came to Thailand in '78 for a trip, or indeed '71, tells me more about your age than your knowledge of Thailand.

Permanent since 1991.

Started Companies, rented/remodeled several offices and condos. Been married and divorced.

Imported many items, been involved with charities, partnerships, police and even been in Thai Court a couple times. Attended countless marriages and funerals. Been a guest at a Royal dinner(Patuwan Palace) and have friends in high places(one is living in London)

Been ripped off a couple times and seen thousands of people scammed and taken advantage of over the years, including many friends and relatives.

Can spot a blowhard in a fraction of a second. That's why I give bendix a hard time.

If you have lived here since 1991 then you should have a good grasp of the country; or at least the part you live in.

I personally wouldn't live somewhere for sixteen years unless I felt good about the place.

If I begin to spend my time moaning about the place I will know that it is time for me to leave.

Mind you I think that my life can be happy and content anywhere; except perhaps Saudi.

Not everyone has the choice of moving away from a place they don't like. Like me I am stuck here in HK and I hate it.

I think PTG is stuck in Thailand.

[garro]

Meemiathai, I am not suggesting that people really need to move anywhere else.

I feel that if you try and keep positive about things, life seems to go better.

I love Thailand, but I also love lots of other places; including my home country.

It looks like my future will remain in Thailand because of my family, and I am happy with that.

I understand that people have bad days and moan about Thailand; I do it myself.

The problem is that there are a few people who spend their time on Thai visa running the place and the people down.

What is the point of this?

I just find the negativity a bit soul destroying and try to avoid it.

I doubt these people would be happy anywhere.

Or perhaps as neerenam suggests I belong to group 4 and have lost the plot.

Edited November 11, 2007 by garro

[qualtrough]

I've noticed that there are 3 stages to life in Thailand for the expat. Some people never get out of stage 1, some never get past stage 2.

1. Thailand is paradise, everything is wonderful, the people are great

2. Thailand is hel_l, everything is awful and the people are horrible

3. Thailand is just a place, the people are just people. Like anywhere it has its pluses and minuses and you just learn to live with it.

IMO, there is no point in slagging everything off all the time. It is fine to acknowledge the bad, see it for what it is, but to ignore the good as well will only make the person bitter and unhappy. And what is the point in a bitter unhappy life?

Excellent analysis. In my opinion spot on, and applicable to other countries as well. Those in group 2 will of course see those in group 3 as the 'rose colored glasses' brigade simply because group 3 doesn't share groups 2's constantly negative take on things. I have been in groups 1 and 2, and am now firmly in group 3.

Edited November 11, 2007 by qualtrough

[fletchsmile]

Again just for the record. First set foot in Thailand in Sattahip 1971.

Those were the days.

One can always learn but I think I "know the ropes."

Oh yeah thank God for California real estate...

I used to be a lot like that. 1971 was close to the first year I went to Wales. We would go a couple of times a year, and I really knew the place. I became a real expert after visting each year. Particularly in knowing Welsh people, Welsh life and building sand castles on the lovely beaches with my bucket and spade. I didn't need to speak Welsh or actually live there for more than a couple of weeks a year to know how it all worked. I could say "yaki daa" (like people here say "sawasdee khrap"), and could really blend in with the locals. Then after several years of visting Wales, when I was 12 my parents chose to go "abroad" to Spain instead. I know you'll agree, tho', that you don't lose that expertise, acquired over many weeks of holiday and over all those years.

Fast forward to the present and my daughter now has that very same pink spade here in Thailand. She also regularly smiles and giggles. So I reckon she probably wears those RTG you're talking about. She's been here in Thailand for over a year now - on and off. She's becoming a real expert if we're measuring knowledge in terms of number of months in the country, and mixing with the locals. At least comparable to that of regular holiday makers, I'd say.

She's just over 10 kg now and moved up to size XL for her diapers

Edited November 11, 2007 by fletchthai68

[suiging]

What's wrong with rose tinted specs ?

Every country in the world has it's good and bad points. When you come to decide where you want to live ( if you have a choice, spouse not dictating ) you use your own, or sadly quite often other folks experiences in helping you to pick somewhere you might like.

When you have made that choice, get the specs on. See the glass as half full rather than half empty or just become a miserable b-strd like a great many on here. If the glasses don't work ( for alf's sake leave them on a good long while......give it a try ), then as my old mum used to say " It's a hard life rolling sh-ite up hill " and move.

If you are an expat in Thailand, 99.9% of you will have made the choice to be here. The vast majority of that percentage have the option to leave. Just give the place a fair shout first.

[WaiWai]

The three/four stages some have described are the classic stages of "culture shock". Though, I googled for a nice, concise description and found some accounts now include 5 stages. People progress through the phases at very different rates, and some remain forever at certain points.

It should be noted that one can, at any time, have a "reversion" to any of the previous stages. Thus, the graph has a jagged, not a smooth, line.

However, the "rose-coloured" glasses are typical of the early days in the new culture - novelty, excitement, even euphoria. (Some people just keep moving to new places because everything feels so wonderful in this stage. The feeling is addictive.)

Suddenly the wonder recedes and one begins to notice the negatives.

Later, ideally, a more balanced perspective is achieved.

To some extent we can manipulate our feelings, including happiness, and reaching for the RCG's is one way. Those who must stay here for family/financial/other reasons may indeed *need* to rationalionalise their situation, and can - as demonstrated in this thread and elsewhere - be a little sensitive about criticisms of Thailand, or Thai people.

One way or another, we're all in the cultural adjustment boat.

P.S. If people's attention has never been brought to the well-researched phases of culture shock, the emotions they experience can be very bewildering. Most big companies now offer training and support to staff and their families when posted overseas, but not everyone arrived here in that manner. Once you are aware of the pattern, you can identify what's going on, even if you can't control it, and while in the unhappy second phase, know there's light at the end of the tunnel.

There's plenty of good material online, and numerous good books on the subject.

Edited November 11, 2007 by WaiWai

[mikethevigoman]

I think that you have people who are drawn to look at the negative in life.

The would be fine if they kept their view to themselves, but they insist on trying to drag everyone else down with them.

If you don't see the same negative world as they do they accuse you of low intelligence.

The negative types on TV are usually the quickest to resort to flaming.

I doubt these people would be happy anywhere.

I personally find life too short to go looking for unhappiness.

I have loved my nearly six years living in Thailand and intend to enjoy whatever time I have left here.

Well put garro, these types could win the lottery and they would moan because they have too much money !

[tropo]

Hey, my stalker's back :-)

For the record, it's a perfectly valid point. I've noticed that most the biggest malcontents (yourself excepted, of course) don't live here but are occasional visitors.

And then there are those who are here unwillingly (Thai partners perhaps?) but who feel boxed in and can't leave because there is nothing back home to go home too so they're stuck in their crappy lives, with their only outlet the occasional foray into Thaivisa to whinge and whine about how bad everything is.

For many "whinging and whining" is a pleasurable pastime.

[WaiWai]

these types could win the lottery and they would moan because they have too much money !

Do not forget that you may have a naturally cheerful disposition - not everyone does. Also, sometimes the complainers are genuinely depressed and in need of a friend; maybe more.

However, I think there's a great Buddhist practice of "noticing" one's feelings - including happiness. There's psychological truth in this. Studies have apparently found that consciously recognising the positives in one's life, and the moments of happiness, helps people feel better about their lives in general.

Edited November 11, 2007 by WaiWai

[mikethevigoman]

This has syndrome has been mentioned from time to time here on TV.

How prevalent is it today?

It is widespread! While living in Thailand overall may be great, it cannot be denied that some of what happens here is weird, strange or sometimes just wrong.

What annoys me is that some people simply see the country as perfect. It isn't. Everywhere has its problems... Just pointing out what problem does not mean that overall you don't like living here. But some people don't see it that way. Any negative comment about Thailand they see as a negative comment about them. Taking things so personally is a sign of serious insecurity.

If anyone saw thailand as perfect i would question where they had come from ! Edited November 11, 2007 by mikethevigoman

[tropo]

Mr Padthai

You seem a little obsessed with how long people have been here. How long have you been here then? BTW spending 50 years on a bar stool doesn’t qualify people to become a Thailand guru (no matter how much they think they are one).

It's a good point. Where one lives makes a big difference to one's knowledge of Thailand and its culture. Although I don't spend time on bar stools, my perception of Thailand is only through life in Pattaya. A person could spend 20 years there and be none the wiser.

[tijnebijn]

these types could win the lottery and they would moan because they have too much money !

Do not forget that you may have a naturally cheerful disposition - not everyone does. Also, sometimes the complainers are genuinely depressed and in need of a friend; maybe more.

However, I think there's a great Buddhist practice of "noticing" one's feelings - including happiness. There's psychological truth in this. Studies have apparently found that consciously recognising the positives in one's life, and the moments of happiness, helps people feel better about their lives in general.

Totally agree - it all starts in the mind - it is no matter where you are

or how you live- the positivity makes someone happy creating endorphine - or a negative

way of attitude - which makes one depressed blaming everything around them - it is such easy .

[kmart]

I'm sure that The Samaritans must surely have a branch in Thailand where people with low self-esteem issues can get help, or at least spend some time more productively?

Failing that, maybe the Little Rays Of Sunshine chirping merrily in this thread could hold a couple of screwdrivers in front of their weary eyes and run full tilt at the nearest wall?

[qwertz]

We farangs do tend to complicate matters by chewing the subject to pieces.

There seems to be an undercurrent of feeling here, a notion that you actually have to be an expat in Thailand to have any understanding of it and its people and that this knowledge deepens according to the number of years one has spent there.

I lived there once, I was married there once, I still remember a lot of the language and customs.

So what?

It's no big deal after you've done this in several countries.

Only an utter fool (of which there are many) lives in a place without gradually or quickly acquiring the necessary local knowledge.

You need an open mind and very liberal views to make out in a culture as foreign as Thailand's.

It seems to me that too many farangs move there with the erroneous belief that the land will change to suit them: how or when that is supposed to happen I really can't imagine.

Thailand doesn't even suit many Thais but at least we, unlike them, have the advantage of being able to fold our tent and find heaven in some other banana republic.

Aren't we fortunate?

[sbk]

I'm sure that The Samaritans must surely have a branch in Thailand where people with low self-esteem issues can get help, or at least spend some time more productively?

Failing that, maybe the Little Rays Of Sunshine chirping merrily in this thread could hold a couple of screwdrivers in front of their weary eyes and run full tilt at the nearest wall?

Kind of trollish sort of response, don't you think kmart?

Forum rules:

Do not post inflammatory messages on the forum, or any attempt to disrupt discussions to upset its participants. The word, or its derivative, "trolling", is used to describe such messages or the act of posting them.

[zzdocxx]

There are in general only three kinds of farang

You forget the fourth type - people who generalise about others ;-)

Actually there are only two types of people.

Those who think there are two types of people, and those who don't.

:D :D

[tropo]

I'm sure that The Samaritans must surely have a branch in Thailand where people with low self-esteem issues can get help, or at least spend some time more productively?

Failing that, maybe the Little Rays Of Sunshine chirping merrily in this thread could hold a couple of screwdrivers in front of their weary eyes and run full tilt at the nearest wall?

[markwhite]

Those who think there are two types of people, and those who don't.

:-)

Or the three types of people: those who can count, and those who can't.

[GuestHouse]

Hello, GuestHouse!

Why might it be considered a fool's paradise?

A) Because only a fool would not be able to see that Thailand is not paradise.

Because Thailand clearly attracts a dispropoitionate number of fools.

[garro]

Hello, GuestHouse!

Why might it be considered a fool's paradise?

A) Because only a fool would not be able to see that Thailand is not paradise.

Because Thailand clearly attracts a dispropoitionate number of fools.

I'm confused. Was the double negative intended?

By the way how is life in the Saudi paradise?

Still find time to come here, eh.

Edited November 11, 2007 by garro

[bendix]

Can spot a blowhard in a fraction of a second. That's why I give bendix a hard time.

Give me a hardtime?

When is that gonna start? So far it's been like being savaged by a kitten.