Do You Hear The Word Farang Used By Thais In A Derogatory Way?

[EastSaxCol]

Well, it was a light-heatrted

Maybe it'd be an idea to get my own native language sorted-out before correcting others misuse of another one.

[GuestHouse]

Does the crash explain why you have so far failed to address any of the other points that I raised? It is hardly fair to call me out because I inadvertently missed responding to one of your many points, while you fail to address any of those that I raised. This is the second time I have mentioned that, so I must conclude that it is intentional

Well that and the fact that I'm in Saudi Arabia and today is a work day - but hold your hat, I'll get off work later this evening and give you the attention you crave.

[thaigene2]

Wow - 11 pages, 250+ posts, and it's less than a day old.

Anyone feeling a bit 'uneasy' out there?

Okay - my response was 'sometimes' for reasons already covered by others. But I agree with someone earlier who said you may not speak enough Thai to know whether they're talking about fruit -- or you!

I speak enough to know the difference - and to listen in on other stuff. To me the best way to tell if it is negative is the way in which it's said...if the Thai person is 'spitting' the word "farang" then that usually sums it up - but not always.

Here's another thought though. No one would use the word "Gek", an 'alternative' word for Chinese, or Klenk (think I messed that one up), meaning Indian -- in any way other than derogatory. So we farangs get an ambiguous reference which I think was what the OP was trying to get at..

Edited December 2, 2007 by thaigene2

[Jingthing]

Note: The majority are in the middle of this question, if you count Often, Sometimes, and Seldom, you get 80 percent.

Then you have the nevers, who I think would make fascinating psychological subjects on the topic of deep denial.

On the spitting comment, Thai language gurus, can you tell us poor ignorant farangs whether when a Thai person SPITS out the word farang, does that "gesture" make this neutral word negative in that use? I always thought so, but would stand to be corrected ...

Edited December 2, 2007 by Jingthing

[qualtrough]

ls. What he was referring to was my use of 's' to indicate more than one farang. I assume that is why he bolded the word. If that is the case it is silly because I was writing in English, not Thai. I don't think he was agreeing with me. Perhaps he will let us know!

Well, it was a light-heatrted hint at the irony of, on the one hand saying that you know so much about Thai society, etc. And then using a plural where non exists.

But let's not get silly about this and let the waters flow under the bridge here.

I don't claim to be an expert on Thai society. I do claim to know more about it than most of the people posting on this thread. That is not bragging because as has been demonstrated time and time again the bar is pretty low here. I have also never claimed to be fluent in Thai. In any case, your dig was not really not a fair one because I was using farang in English, and borrowed words follow the rules of the borrowing language, not the lending language. You were trying to score a point at my expense, but the effort failed. Now I will be happy to let the waters flow. In fact, I am going to let some flow right now in the smallest room in our house.

[qualtrough]

Does the crash explain why you have so far failed to address any of the other points that I raised? It is hardly fair to call me out because I inadvertently missed responding to one of your many points, while you fail to address any of those that I raised. This is the second time I have mentioned that, so I must conclude that it is intentional

Well that and the fact that I'm in Saudi Arabia and today is a work day - but hold your hat, I'll get off work later this evening and give you the attention you crave.

Guesthouse, is it possible for someone to disagree with you without your casting aspersions, e.g. characterizing my reply to your post as a rant, or my further responses to your responses as a need to attract attention? Is it asking too much to ask you just to engage in open debate without veering off into personal attacks?

Edited December 2, 2007 by qualtrough

[asiaworld]

Note: The majority are in the middle of this question, if you count Often, Sometimes, and Seldom, you get 80 percent.

Then you have the nevers, who I think would make fascinating psychological subjects on the topic of deep denial.

On the spitting comment, Thai language gurus, can you tell us poor ignorant farangs whether when a Thai person SPITS out the word farang, does that "gesture" make this neutral word negative in that use? I always thought so, but would stand to be corrected ...

Leave them alone Jingthing .. Your poll was a good idea, and you can clearly see the results.. 15% is in denial, and if they let slang word turn into mainstream use , it will come back at them & their offspring one fine day, when they least expect it ..

Ignorance is bliss and everyone is more than entitled to their own opinion . But if they try to push their point ignoring other members valid views , let it be , so far only Qualtrough reads & answers all posts , but he thinks it's ok .. just a word, so why bother ..

[camerata]

Then you have the nevers, who I think would make fascinating psychological subjects on the topic of deep denial.

I think those who answered "Always, its a slur word by definition" would make more fascinating research subjects.

[PeaceBlondie]

The mere fact that we answered "Never" in this silly poll means very little, and it surely does not prove that we're in denial. What is it we're supposedly denying: that in the present tense (we are being insulted), or in the present perfect tense (we have been insulted)? While I don't completely believe "names will never hurt me," I don't think names hurt me much, or often, or usually, or always. This silly poll is based on our understanding, our perception, not the concrete reality. And this is a perceived insult, in a foreign language that borrowed a word from a European language and then gave it many Thai meanings. The more ambiguous a word is, and the more foreign farang is as a Portuguese/Thai word, the less it means anything.

In Western PC sensitivity training, a prejudicial remark or an racial/ethnic insult is defined in the eyes and ears of the person being insulted. If you call a Black man a nigger, and he considers it an insult, you've insulted him even if you try to weasel out of it. But in Thailand, if a Thai uses that Portuguese/Thai word 'farang' to call you a White foreigner, the culture may not equate that to an insult.

Next time you think you were insulted because a Thai called you a farang, ask him if he speaks Portuguese.

[Jingthing]

PB, I don't think you understood the question. It wasn't only about you personally being insulted.

I get your point about perception though. We hear these things and sometimes we think they are insults, sometimes they are insults, sometimes they aren't insults, sometimes we hear insults and we think they aren't.

Oh well!

However, never is an extreme answer. That is saying a person never felt that a Thai person using the word farang in any context, with any amount of saliva coming out of her mouth, was hurling an insult. That totally defies credulity.

Edited December 2, 2007 by Jingthing

[JetsetBkk]

Let's all play along and pretend it's funny.

There goes my comeback as a standup comedian. Drats. I thought the writer's strike gave me an opening.

Although your other thread has been locked - preventing me from replying - I've found a way of replying by using the "Quote" button!

So, I just wanted to say: "Good comeback!"

[GuestHouse]

Guesthouse, is it possible for someone to disagree with you without your casting aspersions, e.g. characterizing my reply to your post as a rant, or my further responses to your responses as a need to attract attention? Is it asking too much to ask you just to engage in open debate without veering off into personal attacks?

It's as possible as me stating that I was unable to comment earlier because my network connection crashed without you claiming some excuse for not addressing the points you have made.

-----

Language and meaning - It is the backbone of many a post here that the term 'Farang' is neutral - I question the basis of those claims - As evidence we have posts from a number of people who claim to speak Thai and who also admit that the term is sometimes used as a derogatory sense. - It seems that I and they agree except for the extent and frequency of this derogatory sense.

So while I accept that at some time in the past it almost certainly was neutral it is also clear that the term Farang is used in a derogatory sense.

Let us remind ourselves of the question the OP asks Do You Hear The Word Farang Used By Thais In A Derogatory Way?

If anyone who speaks Thai says they have never heard the term 'Farang' used in a derogatory way then I must conclude that they are either learned their Thai in a very secluded environment (not in Thailand) or they are deaf.

Neutral? - The idea that a word in any language has a fixed meaning and that the word is independent of context is utter <deleted>. Language - No language - has ever been fixed without change. (Example - The English word 'Gay' went from a possitive attribute regarding someone's tempremant, to an insult regarding their sexuality to a neutral description of someone's sexuality) There are many other examples in every language.

Language expresses values - How many times do you hear it said that if you want to understand Thai culture and values learn the language - From a knowledge of Thai we can 'feel' the importance of family in the numerous terms for family relationships, we can 'feel' the importance of emotions in the numerous and complex Thai verbs that describe the experience of feelings. Language expresses values and as values change so does language.

The PC Problem - A number of posters here have made objections to Political Correctness or snide remarks regarding Political Correctness - I think that tells us something.

Ironically the roots of Political Correctness lie in the deconstruction of language and - going back to a post I made earlier - the impact of language on others.

And that brings me back to mutual respect - Thai society is changing - more foreigners are living in Thailand, and there is an understandable change in Thai attitudes to foreigners - Changing attitudes, changing values, changing language.

Anyone who claims that the use of any word is fixed (you, I or anyone else) is talking out of their backside.

And I am presuming here that the term Backside has not changed in meaning since the last time I used it.

[GuestHouse]

It is rich that you write about 'mutual respect and consideration for the feelings of others', yet characterize my reasoned response to your initial post as a rant. It would appear that anyone not agreeing with you is not worthy of any ''mutual respect and consideration for the feelings of others'.

A rant is a rant

I find the following risible in light of what you wrote earlier:

I find it interesting that whenever we have discussed language and behaviour with Thais they respond very positively to addressing behaviour and language through a framework of Mutual Respect.

Do you remember how you answered my question of why he/she should give a rat's ass if they [Farangs and Euro--Thais] objected to your instructing him/her on the use of the word? Here is your response to that:

Because he takes the company pay cheque and enjoys the benefits of working for a multinational company that offers him great pay, educational and promotion possibilities - all in line with the companies equal opportunities 'respect and diversity' polices.

What's wrong with that - I'm under no illusion that I work for the pay and opportunities that my employers offer - Thais working for the organization I work for enjoy pay and conditions that very few Thai organizations offer their staff - How many Thai organizations give their Thai staff opportunities based on merit - who in Thai organizations gets the overseas assignment, the pay rise, help with their educational fees and a bursirry for their children's education?

We have a respect and diversity policy that offers equal opportunities - the flip side is we expect our staff to behave as well as the company behaves. - Is that too much to ask? I don't think so an the hundreds of Thais who apply to join us every year presumably don't think so either. It seems the majority of our staff who remain as employees year after year don't have a problem with this.

The 'Framework of Mutual Respect' sounds pretty one sided to me. By your own admission it appears that your employees are not so much engaging in a 'Framework of Mutual Respect' so much as wisely knowing which side their bread is buttered on when it comes to any dispute with their expat manager.

The GM is a Thai

When one side holds all the cards it is quite easy to get agreement on any number of topics. In any case, while you may have been able to cow your employees into accepting your definition of farang, you hold no such power over the mass of Thai people, who will laugh at your efforts, along with most farangs who know anything about Thailand.

One side holds all the cards? Cow our employees? Power over the mass of Thais?

Have you ever worked in an organization that has a corporate code of ethics that places 'Respect and Diversity' at the heart of its business practice?

We work on every continent, our offices are staffed with multi racial teams (over 200 mother tongue languages spoken in our head office - We manage to pull together effective teams from around the globe and you are talking the language of management worker conflict of the kind that no business that never went broke in the 1970s ever used.

Have you EVER worked for a multinational?

Edited December 2, 2007 by GuestHouse

[GuestHouse]

Oh and bye the way - There are a number of behaviors and language issues that we expect our expatriate staff to avoid (These vary according to location).

It's all part of that MUTUAL RESPECT you seem to be having a problem with.

Racism, sexism, physical, sexual, emotional abuse, bullying, inappropriate behavior or language is not acceptable from ANY employee regardless of who they are. - In case you missed it.....

MUTUAL RESPECT !!!

[meemiathai]

If anyone who speaks Thai says they have never heard the term 'Farang' used in a derogatory way then I must conclude that they are either learned their Thai in a very secluded environment (not in Thailand) or they are deaf.

Can you point us out where you heard it used in a derogatory way? Can you give examples under what circumstances you heard it used so? Are you saying the word is ACTUALLY more often used by thais in a derogatory manner than rather a neutral manner?

I simply can't recall any occasions where a thai has used it in a derogatory manner, at least for no obvious reasons.

Are you suggesting the daily use of the word by, like thai friends and family members are used in a negative way to describe me?

May I ask, hopefully it does not offend you, what your wife's opinion is?

Hopefully this post get answered.

[meemiathai]

Selectively? What is it that you asked I did not reply? Ask!!!!!!!!!!! You are the one who is selective!

Go back & read more.. in any case , since u dismiss my statments at your convenience, i don't think you deserve further discussion, you've got good part of your questions answered by me ... re-read

Is that not typical for those who lose logic in their arguments?

What questions are they that is so difficult to re-ask? So far I am the one who is openly and willingly to talk about anything here. Even if that includes asking same questions over and over again. But you? "It's a secret, blah blah blah."

[wamberal]

However, never is an extreme answer. That is saying a person never felt that a Thai person using the word farang in any context, with any amount of saliva coming out of her mouth, was hurling an insult. That totally defies credulity.

You have a tenuous grasp on reality if you think that an answer of "never" is extreme.

I have spent a number of years in Thailand, admittedly working in a profession, and also a number of years married into a Thai family, and I have NEVER heard the word farang used in a negative way.

Prove that I am wrong.

[meemiathai]

Do you speak Thai fluently? I didn't think so. So how are you to know that farang by itself is offensive? As others with considerably more knowledge of the language have pointed out, the term by itself is neutral and not an offensive term used to describe westerners. It can indeed be made offensive by combining with offensive words, but so what? Any word can. What exactly is your point then?? In the US nigger was considered offensive in most parts of the US for more than 100 years, and the word itself was offensive. It didn't need to be coupled with anything in order to be an insult. Calling something farang food, farang style, or someone a farang is not intended to offend, and indeed would only offend the type of farang that wants to be offended by something. I would suggest that those offended by the word are too sensitive to live in Thailand, much less Asia, and would be better off staying at home where they can hear only words that appeal to them.

Hmm.. you have a funny way of proving your point, now it's my thai knowledge you're after.. well to answer your older question, english IS my native/adopted language . Have you heard of native proficiency . To explain, i didn't know any english in the first 8 years of my life ..And i know at least 5 more languages on similar level.. Anyways i don't think, you have good chance of winning the language contest .

Also your previous point, that you can't tell the native speaker, what to say is NOT good.. > Does it mean, i can insult anyone i like, with any words i like & non native speakers can't say anything against it ?!? Are U 4 REAL ?!?

Are you twisting things but not knowing it due to your handicapability OR are you simply just being dishonest so you just do not care much about rational discussions?

If that was what you have asked, may I then ask you Does it mean even if you are trying to praise someone with english words you know & non native speakers can say anything they like to criticize your usage of words? Are you 4 real?

[meemiathai]

Wow qualtrough, you've just confused me badly, as i was thinking abt reply to meemiathai's challenge So now ,if i invest in overseas properties, that puts my homes in number of different places,which are of no relevance with my visa status,nationality & may change,once i sell property?!? i am caucasian, with some mongoloid backgroud,meemiathai, and since i am multiple national & have confusing background i do not think, this is the right place for me to post my CV!

Funny thou, once you research a few of user's posts, it is somewhat easy to figure quite a lot of personal information about any user,a bit too much for a public forum like this, me thinks.. Now your situation really baffles me,meemiathai..

U live in HK, but spend most of your time on TV . Yeah, i know TV ;IS unique, in that NO other country requires a forum, so grand,just to help the poor/confused foreigners to figure out how to do simple things in this country..

i know you've got a bit of rural isaan, in your family. But, why don't u live here, if you soo fascinated, with LOS?! Its not like it'd cost u a fortune to move, just couple of hrs.&couple of thousands..

My postings here were Not of personal grudge,or frustration,but simply intent with though of people like memiathai & qualtrough in mind, who may have thai spouse & kids, stay here half their lifes, & still be,as foreign in the eyes of majority of thais, as any tourist, who just got off the airplane (& ur legal standing, won't be much better,unless u astute)

Wow you make a better comedian than George Carlin!

"If you don't think the word farang is derogatory, then why aren't you living in Thailand?" <deleted>? What sort of logic is that? "Well coz I'm a bloody civil servant here in HK" Sorry I don't know how to answer it like a comedian does.

[PeaceBlondie]

Thanks to GuestHouse for these two points, and several others:

Let us remind ourselves of the question the OP asks Do You Hear The Word Farang Used By Thais In A Derogatory Way?

If anyone who speaks Thai says they have never heard the term 'Farang' used in a derogatory way then I must conclude that they are either learned their Thai in a very secluded environment (not in Thailand) or they are deaf.

Now we're narrowing the field quite a bit. If a farang is not fluent in Thai (such as me), we cannot hear the word used by Thais in a derogatory way. Perhaps never. Oh, it's possible we'd get the general drift of intent if the word was pronounced loudly and with spittle and a disgusted look on the Thai's face, but that's never happened to me. So please, Jingthing, don't assume that everybody on ThaiVisa who took your flawed poll is perfectly fluent in Thai or in its Portuguese loanwords.

Making a poll on this forum is difficult, and writing perfect questions is extremely difficult. The results of most polls on ThaiVisa, or in Bangkok, divided by the number of Scottish somtam vendors on Sukumvit, equals half the number of Bavarians who sell enchiladas in Taiwan.

[mr_hippo]

Making a poll on this forum is difficult, and writing perfect questions is extremely difficult. The results of most polls on ThaiVisa, or in Bangkok, divided by the number of Scottish somtam vendors on Sukumvit, equals half the number of Bavarians who sell enchiladas in Taiwan.

I think you forgot to factor in the number of cycling French onion sellers wearing striped jerseys and berets who read Stephen King in Mongolian.

Edited December 3, 2007 by mr_hippo

[rutteketuut]

some like, some don't like this fruit.

I like the farang juice.

[KKK]

Falung is, in my experience, used both in a normal way (white caucasian) and in a deregative way (white nigger). If you hear the word on its own and not in a sentance you can be pretty sure that its the latter usage.

[sylviex]

Falung is, in my experience, used both in a normal way (white caucasian) and in a deregative way (white nigger). If you hear the word on its own and not in a sentance you can be pretty sure that its the latter usage.

That's a good observation, KKK.

(interesting screen name you have ??)

Guest House made good points, too. If you think attitudes towards "farang/s" may be changing, there's a good chance you may notice a shift in the connotations of the word which refers to us.

I also agree with the person who pointed out that "farang" is informal language and would not be used in official contexts. As such, while not inherently disrespectful, it's not particularly respectful, either, in a society that's very concerned with hierarchy, and so can easily stray towards a "dismissive" tone.

Thais don't verbalise feelings so much, so negativity or positivity will often be expressed in other ways, such as facial expression, body language, tone of voice. These may be too subtle and culture-specific for us to really understand, though we might sense some cooling of the atmosphere. They would also use subtleties of surrounding language and other terms of address but most non-native Thai speakers would miss those, as the Thai/s in question would be well aware.

Edited December 3, 2007 by sylviex

[sidban2]

I do not think this is an important question at all. Every country has their bigots or people who have a loose mouth and can't express themselves with subtlety. Why single out Thai people? Perhaps you wish to justify your own prejudice toward Thai people? You might want to think about this. Of course, you may have the habit of personalizing a few cases. Many people will do this as they belong to a minority group and feel persecuted in a number of ways. Anyway, enough of the psychologizing. I think the point is clear enough. Let's not waste our time thinking that all Thais have a prejudice toward foreignors or want to take advantage of them. Better to just make a friendly landmark in your own community and let others know that you recognize them as brothers and sisters of humanity, is it not?

[sidban2]

Why should we worry about whether someone dislike foreignors. There are plenty of such people in every country. Don't you have something better to do than ruminate about someone disliking foreignors? Perhaps such people have been mistreated or cheated by a foreignor? Or they may be envious of your wealth. So, let's show some respect for their discontent and not try to punish them. Is that not what our spiritual beliefs teach us?

[asiaworld]

Meemiathai, thank you again for answering only SOME of my points, that i've put down.. WHY only minor ones ..

What you & qualtrough being so proficient in thai SHOULD know .. Farang is a double edged sword ..

It is a normal innocent word , when used on guava fruit .. But IT IS defenitely slang, when referred to person !!

Now care to point out ANY example of official use of , this word ,when referred to persons ? ! ?

All the TV comedy clips you've posted.. well watch any US movie,of some TV programms & you'll hear A LOT of words like F&(k & S#*T ..

Does it makes those words any less insulting .. I've posted the example of thai song "farang keenok" >> ONLY qualtrough answered !! Guess that answer wasn't agreaable, with your standpoint , so you conveniently choose to give it a miss .. and anyway not nice to dismiss someone , because he's not telling you much about themselves on public forum .. Hey if one day i get bored in HK, i'll make sure to PM you & get you a beer , so you may give me thai/chinese exam

Edited December 3, 2007 by asiaworld

[t.s]

Are there any Thai Nationals reading this that would care to answer?

there are many debates about the word Farang. why not let some Thai Nationals answer and clear it up once and for all.

Personaly though, I think it can be used in a bad way and a good way, depends on who is saying it. I have asked many Thais this and always get that blank look, so maybe its not such a good word.

I do always wonder why thai members don't come out and post what they think. Well Heng did earlier. But they must have went through a fxxking hxll of an experience trying to explain it previously. So maybe I understand why they don't.

or they are so genuinely disgusted with the attitude towards thais so frequently portrayed on this site that they have deemed most posters here beneath contempt.

[PeaceBlondie]

sidban2 made several interesting points, including these:

I do not think this is an important question at all. ..... Many people will do this as they belong to a minority group and feel persecuted in a number of ways. .... Better to just make a friendly landmark in your own community and let others know that you recognize them as brothers and sisters of humanity, is it not?

Most White men, such as ThaiVisa posters, have never been a minority. Not if you're straight, Gentile, non-Gypsy, etc. Suddenly we're in a country where we are 'other people' or 'not one of us' or, God forbid, a foreigner.

Let's not be sensitive if our questions don't get answered. You are not a police officer interrogating a suspect. Many of my points never get addressed, but I have a point of making too many points. And let's stop the personal attacks before the thread is closed.

[chanchao]

I'm fluent in Thai.

I voted "Never".

I'm not leading a secluded life.

Carry on.