How Can I Distinguish Between ค And ด ?

[RDN]

When I see kaw kwai (ค) or daw dek (ด), I have a hard time remembering which is which. Does anyone have an easy method? What I mean is, is there an easy way to remember that ค is a 'k' and ด is a 'd'?

I have a really long-winded way: the loop is inside the daw dek: so "D IN".

DIN is a connector standard - so D IN is correct. And therefore K OUT must be correct. So the loop for kaw kwai is outside.

Please, someone must have an easier way!!

[Richard W]

When I see kaw kwai (ค) or daw dek (ด), I have a hard time remembering which is which. Does anyone have an easy method? What I mean is, is there an easy way to remember that ค is a 'k' and ด is a 'd'?

I have a really long-winded way: the loop is inside the daw dek: so "D IN".

DIN is a connector standard - so D IN is correct. And therefore K OUT must be correct. So the loop for kaw kwai is outside.

Please, someone must have an easier way!!

How about:

<MNEMONIC>

'Khaw khwai' ค /kh/ is closer to 'kaw kai' ก /k/ than to 'daw dek' ด /d/ in almost every way:

(a) in the alphabet (3 places different v. 16 places)

( visually (the connector from the loop to the bottom left corner is often overwritten by the hoop from bottom left to bottom right)

© phonetically (khaw khwai is a voiceless, aspirated velar stop; kaw kai is a voiceless, unaspirated velar stop; daw dek is a voiced, unaspirated dental stop)

</MNEMONIC>

Actually distinguishing the three letters when reading handwriting can be difficult.

Some people start 'kaw kai' with a downward stroke, so if the loop is left off khaw khwai one is left wondering. (Is this a Northern feature? In Northern Thai words beginning with ค in Standard Thai usually begin with /k/, and in the Lanna Script the letter corresponding to ค looks very like Thai ก.)

The placement of the loop is not always accurate, and in some print styles it is left out completely. The difference then lies in the angle at the bottom left corner. For ค, the angle is acute, and writers normally reverse the pen direction there. For ด, the angle is obtuse, and writers need not reverse the direction of the pen, but merely make a tightish turn. There's one font where the loop and connecting stroke of ด is reduced to about a third of a circle at the bottom left hand corner.

[kenk3z]

The first one looks like the behind of a kwai (buffalo).

The second one doesn't, unless you're really fixated on what the behind of a buffalo looks like (as in every ink blot looks like a buffalo's behind.)

kenk3z

[katana]

In the English alphabet, ABCDEFGHIJK... : K is to the right of D.

In a similar manner, the hook (or หัว) of KHOR KHWAI ค lies to the right, while for DOR DEK ด it lies to the left.

Hope that makes sense.

[RDN]

How about:

'Khaw khwai' ค /kh/ is closer to 'kaw kai' ก /k/ than to 'daw dek' ด /d/ in almost every way:

visually (the connector from the loop to the bottom left corner is often overwritten by the hoop from bottom left to bottom right)

Thanks Richard W for this idea - I can see that the resemblance of ค to ก is more than that of ด to ก

And thanks to katana for this idea, too:

In the English alphabet, ABCDEFGHIJK... :  K is to the right of D.

In a similar manner,  the hook ... of KHOR KHWAI ค lies to the right, while for DOR DEK ด it lies to the left.

Coincidentally, while I was reading these posts, my g/f asked me what it was about, so I explained and then asked her how she remembered. And she came up with this one, not too dissimilar from katana's idea:

"kwa", "ขวา" means "right", (as in "turn right", "lio kwa", "เลื้ยว ขวา"), and the loop of khaw khwai is to the right of the connector from the loop to the bottom left corner.

Of course, I have the same problem with kaw kon ฅ and taw tao ต, but the same "rule" applies: 'k' sounds have the loop to the right, 'd' and 't' sounds have it to the left.

[meadish_sweetball]

You really need not worry about khaw khon, because it is such a rare letter - you can safely assume that in more than 0.03% of all relevant cases, you are looking at ต taw tao.

Most modern courses in Thai for foreigners ignores khaw khon with a sweeping mention, whereas the Thais still have to learn it. As you may know the word 'khon' คน itself - 'person', 'human being', and also the general classifier for humans takes a khaw khwaay ค.

[Richard W]

Of course, I have the same problem with kaw kon ฅ and taw tao ต, but the same "rule" applies: 'k' sounds have the loop to the right, 'd' and 't' sounds have it to the left.

Except of course that kaw kon ฅ doesn't occur in modern Thai words. Does it occur in car registration numbers?

Historically, kaw kon ฅ and taw tao ต are created from khaw khwai ค and daw dek ด by applying a dent.

For any who don't know, a complete list of such derivations, either by applying a dent or stretching the tail at the top right hand corner, is:

Voiceless stop from voiced stop:

ต from ด

ฏ from ฎ

ป from บ

(In Indian languages, the original consonant represented a voiceless stop.)

High class fricative from high class aspirate:

ฃ from ข

ฝ from ผ

Low class fricative from low class aspirate:

ฅ from ค

ซ from ช

ฟ from พ

(The low class fricative used to be voiced, and the low class aspirate used to be a voiced stop.)

The fricative represented by ฃ and ฅ later came to be pronounced the same as an aspirated stop, the same as ข and ค in all but Northern Thai. As they only properly occurred in native words, they were redundant, and ceased to be used in spelling.

Historically, taw montho ฑ is not derived from thaw (naai) thahaanท.

[Richard W]

Another reminder is to brush your teeth with คอลเกต, and ignore the dent (pun not intendeded) in the last letter.

[RDN]

Another reminder is to brush your teeth with คอลเกต, and ignore the dent (pun not intendeded) in the last letter.

Sorry Richard W, I must be thick today! Are you saying there's something wrong with Colgate using ต instead of ด at the end? (I must say, ต does look a little like a tooth!)

[Richard W]

Another reminder is to brush your teeth with คอลเกต, and ignore the dent (pun not intendeded) in the last letter.

Sorry Richard W, I must be thick today! Are you saying there's something wrong with Colgate using ต instead of ด at the end? (I must say, ต does look a little like a tooth!)

I wanted a familiar brand name that contained both ค and ด when written in Thai. (I can't remember how the brand name 'Darkie' was spelt.) The best I could comes up with contains ต instead of ด.

[RDN]

I wanted a familiar brand name that contained both ค and ด when written in Thai.  (I can't remember how the brand name 'Darkie' was spelt.)  The best I could comes up with contains ต instead of ด.

OK, I get it now ! And a good memory aid, too! Thanks.

[Boon Mee]

I don't have too much trouble distinguishing between ด and ค as long as I'm wearing my reading glasses! The words with ด have that distinctive "D" sound to me.

I sometimes have trouble making the distinction between ซ and ข when writing a word I've heard. Anyone know of any menomic "devices" that have worked? Maybe just listen for a hard "C" sound with ช?

Cheers,

Boon Mee

[Richard W]

I sometimes have trouble making the distinction between ซ and ข when writing a word I've heard. Anyone know of any menomic "devices" that have worked?

One principle for reading I've been given is that kho khai ข has a straight back, whereas cho chang ช has a broken back. Handwritten kho khai often looks like an ornate capital 'V' or like a gamma sitting on the line.

Maybe just listen for a hard "C" sound with ช?

I take it this is just to demonstrate your confusion.

My bugbear is distinguishing cho chang ช and so so ซ. I usually end up looking for a definite cho chang in the text. Some fonts do make a clear distinction, but most don't.

[chanchao]

Well.. I think no special rules are needed to make this easier, you will just know in time.

For everyone's consideration, let me suggest that it's no different from trying to distinguish between b and d in English, or between p and q. After all, these look exactly the same other than that the little circle goes the other way! Right? Right! So at this level, you can safely assume that in a couple of weeks you know the difference between b and d!

Cheers,

Chanchao

[Richard W]

So at this level, you can safely assume that in a couple of weeks you know the difference between b and d!

Even learning that can benefit from noticing that 'bed' has bedposts.

[meuok]

Have a look at all 3 Kasikorns in Pattaya where they use a ด for both ค and ด