Australian Aged Pension

[Lacessit]

9 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Well, at least you didn't report my post for discussing illegal activity. 

 

Your argument comes up occasionally.  I have considered it.  I just can't see it happening.  It's been going on for decades, and as another member has said, goes all the way to the top.  

 

Prostitution is illegal here also, yet look at it here. 

 

Corruption is endemic in Thailand, we all know this.  Whilst I do not condone corruption, I am merely a guest in Thailand, and go with the flow.  Visa agents and their offerings will still be around long after I have passed.  It's too lucrative. 

 

To be honest, I am surprised they haven't raised the 800k to 1 million, and the 65k to 80k.  They would do so under the guise of higher cost of living etc, but it really would be to drum up more business for the agents, which funnels more funds through to those at the top.  

 

There's been many cases of guys trying to to the right thing, and no doubt they think they are saving themselves a baht, waiting all day at immigration only to be told they are a photocopy short, which means coming back tomorrow.  It's been alleged in other threads, over the years, this is designed to frustrate retirees and push them onto agents. 

 

I know an elderly Aussie retiree who now has mobility issues, so he has no choice but to pay an agent, so it's not just about the 800k in a Thai bank for some. 

Admittedly the risk is very low, I prefer not to take it when I don't have to.

How did you get introduced to the agent? Was that word of mouth from another retiree? It seems to me there is also a risk of having an agent who is incompetent, or losing/stealing a passport.

[KhunHeineken]

52 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

My bank has my TFN. Next.

I am talking about the Thai Tax ID Number. (TIN)

 

It would be easier for the bank to collect the tax on all remitted funds into any, and every account, where a TIN has not been supplied. 

 

Same as we do in Australia for earnings on bank accounts where a TFN has not been supplied.  

 

Bank computers would do all the heavy lifting, and easier than having immigration handle it.

 

Next. 

[KhunHeineken]

26 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Admittedly the risk is very low, I prefer not to take it when I don't have to.

How did you get introduced to the agent? Was that word of mouth from another retiree? It seems to me there is also a risk of having an agent who is incompetent, or losing/stealing a passport.

A friend recommended their agent because they had been using them and never had a problem.   I went and seen them, then shopped around  little, then settled on them.

 

This place is not my agency, but whilst what they are doing is "illegal" because it's encouraged by immigration to be so, their services are certainly no secret.

 

They are all over the internet.   

 

Scroll down under "retirement visa.  "No Visa - No Fee." 

 

https://www.keyvisathailand.com

Edited February 12 by KhunHeineken

[Lacessit]

39 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

So, would that mean those living of a business, or rental income, or an annuity etc etc would just have to tell immigration "I'm living on a pension" and bingo, no Thai tax.  I find that hard to believe. 

 

You are on a part pension.  What are you going to say to immigration about your supplement income?

 

You missed the "interesting" part. 

 

"foreign tax authorities tell us about foreign source income" -so wouldn't Australia tell Thai tax officials about the source income of Australians living in Thailand? 

 

Why would I say anything to Immigration about my income? It's the Thai tax authorities who are interested, and they can't do anything if I prove I am only transferring savings. I have screenshots of every investment as at 31/12/2023. My pension can accumulate in an Australian account for the next 5-10 years, assuming I live that long.

 

IMO quite a few age pensioners in Australia are understating their assets to obtain a bigger pension. Cash is untraceable, everyone knows that. It's why every government wants cashless. They can't really start sending out search parties for cash tucked under a mattress.

 

You are jumping the gun somewhat, no-one knows who is imparting financial information to whom, or if the recipient is acting on it.

I expect if/when the Thai authorities start taxing the Australian OAP, there will be plenty said about it on ASEAN.

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

1 hour ago, Artisi said:

Assume you are talking about portability, can't answer that question but suggest more than likely from applications date. 

I have found centrelink to be very precise with their procedures, if you owe them money they soon let you know, likewise if they owe you money - it's paid and usually quickly. 

Yes, I am talking about in relation to portability. 

 

If there is a 70 day wait for processing, does that mean 70 more days on top of the 2 years?  Who knows?   

[Lacessit]

4 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

A friend recommended their agent because they had been using them and never had a problem.   I went and seen them, then shopped around  little, then settled on them.

 

This place is not my agency, but whilst what they are doing is "illegal" because it's encouraged by immigration to be so, their services are certainly no secret.

 

They are all over the internet.   

 

https://www.keyvisathailand.com

I note they don't actually state they can get visas and extensions with insufficient funds on the website, I guess that is all face-to-face and verbal.

[Lacessit]

21 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

I am talking about the Thai Tax ID Number. (TIN)

 

It would be easier for the bank to collect the tax on all remitted funds into any, and every account, where a TIN has not been supplied. 

 

Same as we do in Australia for earnings on bank accounts where a TFN has not been supplied.  

 

Bank computers would do all the heavy lifting, and easier than having immigration handle it.

 

Next. 

So I get a TIN, and transfer savings only.

 

However, there are reports from other posters the RD has told them they don't need a TIN. What do they do when the bank starts collecting tax because they don't have one?

That sounds like the makings of a SNAFU to me.

[georgegeorgia]

On 2/11/2024 at 8:02 AM, scorecard said:

Yawn / ignore...

But you'll be back to read my posts again,old submissive you can't help yaself.

 

A bit like how you complained about gay people, your another hypocrite sitting there in front of the TV set watching the yearly GAY MARDI GRAS with your bowl of chips repeating over & over "this is disgusting, really is ,this is disgusting" as you sit there eyes glued to it 😳

Edited February 12 by georgegeorgia

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, Artisi said:

Assume you are talking about portability, can't answer that question but suggest more than likely from applications date. 

I have found centrelink to be very precise with their procedures, if you owe them money they soon let you know, likewise if they owe you money - it's paid and usually quickly. 

The 2 years back in Oz to re-establish a home in Oz starts from the day you arrive in Australia.

 

I landed at Sydney airport late morning. early next morning I went to the local big office of Centrelink to gain a get a Centrelink personal Reference number and to prove my ID. I asked many questions to ensure I had the correct information, I lodged my OAP application forms about 3 days later at the same Centrelink office. I learned clearly that:

 

- The 2 years starts from the date you physically arrive in Australia. At the airport they ask no questions whatever about why you have been outside of Oz for many years and they ask no questions whatever in regard to the OAP or APPLYING FOR THE OAP or any matters relating to Centrelink.

 

-  The 2 years DOESN'T start from the date you apply for the OAP.

 

-  The 2 years DOESN'T start from the date your OAP is approved.

 

Further info on this:

 

My oap was approved and I received fortnightly payments into my OZ bank for around 2 years.

 

About 10 days after the 2 years back in Oz I called the older Australians line 132300 and asked I I was entitled to Portability. The officer check and said YES, you gained this entitlement about 10 days ago.

 

I responded 'but I haven't received the OAP yet for 2 years. The officer responded clearly 'Portability is not based on how long you have been receiving the OAP,the 2 years starts from the day you arrive back in Oz.

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

4 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Why would I say anything to Immigration about my income? I

A member suggested immigration will be involved in the taxing process.

 

5 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

and they can't do anything if I prove I am only transferring savings.

As a member said, and it may have been you, it will take them a while to tweak their system, but I can't see it being that easy.  

 

If it was that easy, guys would transfer their pension to their son / daughter, and then have them send the same amount and say to Thai authorities, "My family take care me." 

 

Once they find out where they are leaking money, they will plug the holes.

 

9 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

IMO quite a few age pensioners in Australia are understating their assets to obtain a bigger pension. Cash is untraceable, everyone knows that. It's why every government wants cashless. They can't really start sending out search parties for cash tucked under a mattress.

In the case of expats, that "cash" has to cross boarders, and that's where it becomes traceable, one way, or another, unless you go crypto, and that's for another thread, but a whole new money exchange industry could pop up for expats exchanging crypto for Thai baht, then, that's not traceable.  

 

12 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

You are jumping the gun somewhat, no-one knows who is imparting financial information to whom, or if the recipient is acting on it.

I expect if/when the Thai authorities start taxing the Australian OAP, there will be plenty said about it on ASEAN.

Not jumping the gun. 

 

That's a government website stating foreign authorities inform the Australian government of the income of foreign nationals living in Australia. 

 

I would suggest such income are pensions.  It would be reciprocal, so Australia would then inform foreign authorities of the income Australian nationals are receiving abroad.  It's on the website.  You have the link.  I found that very interesting. 

[scorecard]

4 minutes ago, georgegeorgia said:

But you'll be back to read my posts again,old submissive you can't help yaself.

A bit like how you complained about gay people, another hypocrite sitting there in front of the TV set watching the yearly GAY MARDI GRAS with your bowl of chips repeating over & over "this is disgusting, really is ,this is disgusting" as you sit there glued to it 

Yawn.

[KhunHeineken]

11 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I note they don't actually state they can get visas and extensions with insufficient funds on the website, I guess that is all face-to-face and verbal.

I wonder what the options could be. 

 

Quote:                                                    Worried about the new retirement visa rules?

NO HEALTH INSURANCE?

NO MONEY IN BANK ?

NO INCOME LETTER ?

BANK STATEMENTS NOT ACCEPTED ?

Don’t have sleepless nights, come and see us to discuss your options

                                        Don’t have sleepless nights, come and see us to discuss your options

[Lacessit]

6 minutes ago, georgegeorgia said:

But you'll be back to read my posts again,old submissive you can't help yaself.

 

A bit like how you complained about gay people, your another hypocrite sitting there in front of the TV set watching the yearly GAY MARDI GRAS with your bowl of chips repeating over & over "this is disgusting, really is ,this is disgusting" as you sit there eyes glued to it 😳

Would you mind staying on topic, and taking your children's sandpit somewhere else?

[KhunHeineken]

9 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

So I get a TIN, and transfer savings only.

 

However, there are reports from other posters the RD has told them they don't need a TIN. What do they do when the bank starts collecting tax because they don't have one?

That sounds like the makings of a SNAFU to me.

As someone said, and I agree, it will take them time get it up and running and to tweak it, but for sure the Thai's won't lose an opportunity to turn a baht, and foreigners are easy and lucrative targets. 

 

You have placed  lot of confidence in the "transfer of savings" being your method of avoiding tax in Thailand.  How long before they take that clause out?  

[KhunHeineken]

12 minutes ago, scorecard said:

The 2 years back in Oz to re-establish a home in Oz starts from the day you arrive in Australia.

 

I landed at Sydney airport late morning. early next morning I went to the local big office of Centrelink to gain a get a Centrelink personal Reference number and to prove my ID. I asked many questions to ensure I had the correct information, I lodged my OAP application forms about 3 days later at the same Centrelink office. I learned clearly that:

 

- The 2 years starts from the date you physically arrive in Australia. At the airport they ask no questions whatever about why you have been outside of Oz for many years and they ask no questions whatever in regard to the OAP or APPLYING FOR THE OAP or any matters relating to Centrelink.

 

-  The 2 years DOESN'T start from the date you apply for the OAP.

 

-  The 2 years DOESN'T start from the date your OAP is approved.

 

Further info on this:

 

My oap was approved and I received fortnightly payments into my OZ bank for around 2 years.

 

About 10 days after the 2 years back in Oz I called the older Australians line 132300 and asked I I was entitled to Portability. The officer check and said YES, you gained this entitlement about 10 days ago.

 

I responded 'but I haven't received the OAP yet for 2 years. The officer responded clearly 'Portability is not based on how long you have been receiving the OAP,the 2 years starts from the day you arrive back in Oz.

 

 

Aren't you on a service pension????

[KhunHeineken]

27 minutes ago, georgegeorgia said:

But you'll be back to read my posts again,old submissive you can't help yaself.

 

A bit like how you complained about gay people, your another hypocrite sitting there in front of the TV set watching the yearly GAY MARDI GRAS with your bowl of chips repeating over & over "this is disgusting, really is ,this is disgusting" as you sit there eyes glued to it 😳

Taxation is a depressing subject.  Good to see you have put some humor into it. 

[Lacessit]

17 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

As someone said, and I agree, it will take them time get it up and running and to tweak it, but for sure the Thai's won't lose an opportunity to turn a baht, and foreigners are easy and lucrative targets. 

 

You have placed  lot of confidence in the "transfer of savings" being your method of avoiding tax in Thailand.  How long before they take that clause out?  

I don't know. I do know you have a real talent for taking the most negative view of any situation.

 

They can't tax the 800 K I already have in cold storage, so you may have suggested another avenue for me. I transferred enough funds prior to January 1 for another 2 years.

[Nemises]

+1 about not transferring B800k from my Aus investment portfolio to sit in some Thai bank earning sweet FA. 
 

 

Edited February 12 by Nemises

[KhunHeineken]

13 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I don't know. I do know you have a real talent for taking the most negative view of any situation.

 

Death and Taxes have never been subject to be positive about. 

 

Seriously, they will have every man and his dog jumping on that loophole.  How long before it gets closed? 

 

15 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

They can't tax the 800 K I already have in cold storage, so you may have suggested another avenue for me. I transferred enough funds prior to January 1 for another 2 years.

At the risk of sounding "negative" the Thai's can do what they want, when they want.  You have no rights here.   Just look how quickly they implemented taxing foreigners. 

 

I would have went the other way and moved money out.  Why move money in to a country that is introducing new taxes? 

 

If you have to get the money out of Australia, pick a global bank based in Singapore and pull out some living expense with an ATM card.  Sure, some ATM fees to pay, but cheaper then paying tax. 

 

There will be many tax minimization schemes for foreigners in Thailand being suggested over the next 12 months.  The Thai's will be following them and will tweak accordingly to stop the loopholes. 

 

Interesting times ahead. 

[KhunHeineken]

53 minutes ago, Nemises said:

+1 about not transferring B800k from my Aus investment portfolio to sit in some Thai bank earning sweet FA. 
 

 

Never have, and never will.  It's not just the lost earnings, it's the unstable governance here, fragile economy, and questionable banking system. 

 

I transfer in living expenses once a month as needed, and that's it. 

 

I'm not going to give a Thai bank a cheap perpetual loan of my money, for a visa that I can buy in one of countless shops across the whole country. 

Edited February 12 by KhunHeineken

[Nemises]

39 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

for a visa that I can buy in one of countless shops across the whole country

I too have a number of visa shops I can use in BKK & Pattaya but currently looking for one in Khon Kaen. So if you or anyone knows of one there, please PM me 🙏 

[4MyEgo]

3 hours ago, Artisi said:

Assume you are talking about portability, can't answer that question but suggest more than likely from applications date. 

I have found centrelink to be very precise with their procedures, if you owe them money they soon let you know, likewise if they owe you money - it's paid and usually quickly. 

 

FYI: 

 

The 2-year period includes, as separate full days, the day on which the recipient returns to Australia to resume Australian residence and the day on which they leave again.

 

https://guides.dss.gov.au/social-security-guide/7/1/4

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, KhunHeineken said:

As someone said, and I agree, it will take them time get it up and running and to tweak it, but for sure the Thai's won't lose an opportunity to turn a baht, and foreigners are easy and lucrative targets. 

 

You have placed  lot of confidence in the "transfer of savings" being your method of avoiding tax in Thailand.  How long before they take that clause out?  

IIRC you suggested using an ATM with an Aussie debit card. That's another avenue.

 

IME, when governments do something stupid, people will always manage to find a way to neuter the stupidity.

[4MyEgo]

2 hours ago, Lacessit said:

I expect if/when the Thai authorities start taxing the Australian OAP, there will be plenty said about it on ASEAN.

 

Correct, but you and I know that isn't going to happen, not unless, we start believing that there is a new tax treaty someone, lurking in the dark, that a particular member we all know very well who loves to scaremonger, is talking about to deflect that he was WRONG all along that Aged Pensioners as residents in Thailand had to pay 32.5% tax in Australia....LoL

 

I hazzard a guess, that member will also wear you down sooner or later because he doesn't accept responsibility when he is wrong, he would rather waste members times trying to force his skewed point of views across and constantly ask member to interpret this or that, which is a deflection, when we have provided him with the relevant information that the majority of member agree is correct and stands.

 

We still haven't seen he say he was WRONG, because he is still researching, latest is the new German treaty....LoL, and is scaremongering that Australia is going to go down that path, as opposed to admitting he was WRONG.

 

My advice is best ignore him, or as others have said, block him, but for me, I would rather see this individual carry on with his prophesies that will not come to fruition. 

 

[Lacessit]

2 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Correct, but you and I know that isn't going to happen, not unless, we start believing that there is a new tax treaty someone, lurking in the dark, that a particular member we all know very well who loves to scaremonger, is talking about to deflect that he was WRONG all along that Aged Pensioners as residents in Thailand had to pay 32.5% tax in Australia....LoL

 

I hazzard a guess, that member will also wear you down sooner or later because he doesn't accept responsibility when he is wrong, he would rather waste members times trying to force his skewed point of views across and constantly ask member to interpret this or that, which is a deflection, when we have provided him with the relevant information that the majority of member agree is correct and stands.

 

We still haven't seen he say he was WRONG, because he is still researching, latest is the new German treaty....LoL, and is scaremongering that Australia is going to go down that path, as opposed to admitting he was WRONG.

 

My advice is best ignore him, or as others have said, block him, but for me, I would rather see this individual carry on with his prophesies that will not come to fruition. 

 

To give the devil his due, he has come up with two potentially useful pieces of information. I suppose out of 747 posts, he had to get a couple that actually contributed.

 

I am wondering if he is an ex-public servant, I just can't see him surviving for long in private industry with such relentless negativity.

[4MyEgo]

3 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

To give the devil his due, he has come up with two potentially useful pieces of information. I suppose out of 747 posts, he had to get a couple that actually contributed.

 

Can you please provide the two useful pieces of information he has provided, because a 2 out of 747 strike rate does sound like a public servant to me.

 

3 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I am wondering if he is an ex-public servant, I just can't see him surviving for long in private industry with such relentless negativity.

 

Agree with you 1,000% on that, although there is another one out there, no names mentioned...LoL

[Lacessit]

1 minute ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Can you please provide the two useful pieces of information he has provided, because a 2 out of 747 strike rate does sound like a public servant to me.

 

 

Agree with you 1,000% on that, although there is another one out there, no names mentioned...LoL

His post about using an ATM with an Australian credit/debit card, and the website for a company which purportedly enables retirement visas/extensions for foreigners who don't meet the financial requirements.

[scorecard]

3 hours ago, Lacessit said:

IIRC you suggested using an ATM with an Aussie debit card. That's another avenue.

 

IME, when governments do something stupid, people will always manage to find a way to neuter the stupidity.

 

But do your research about charges imposed on using ATM cards / Debit cards in Oz, cards issued by foreign banks. 

 

I discovered that ANZ bank imposed very small charges for withdrawals in Oz using K Bank Debit card.

 

On the other hand all the other Oz banks have bigger / quite steep charges. One Oz bank charges me AU$34- for using my K Bank debit card in their Oz ATM. I can't remember which Oz bank it was so I'll not guess.

[KhunHeineken]

5 hours ago, scorecard said:

 

But do your research about charges imposed on using ATM cards / Debit cards in Oz, cards issued by foreign banks. 

 

I discovered that ANZ bank imposed very small charges for withdrawals in Oz using K Bank Debit card.

 

On the other hand all the other Oz banks have bigger / quite steep charges. One Oz bank charges me AU$34- for using my K Bank debit card in their Oz ATM. I can't remember which Oz bank it was so I'll not guess.

Here's some rocket science for you.  You have an ATM from an Australian bank, for when in Australia, and an ATM card from a Thai bank for when in Thailand. 

 

If one has to get the money out of Australia for tax / pension purposes,a global bank in Singapore is the best option.  Yes, there will be fees to pull out the money in Singapore from an ATM in Thailand, but it will be less than Thai tax, and out of Thailand's tax jurisdiction. 

 

I know a guy that flies to Singapore and physically brings it in.  Thailand allows up to $20,000USD to be bought in, undeclared.  One of his "runs" is the Singapore F1 every year.   

[KhunHeineken]

9 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

Correct, but you and I know that isn't going to happen,

Link please.

 

9 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

I hazzard a guess, that member will also wear you down sooner or later because he doesn't accept responsibility when he is wrong, he would rather waste members times trying to force his skewed point of views across and constantly ask member to interpret this or that, which is a deflection, when we have provided him with the relevant information that the majority of member agree is correct and stands.

 

We still haven't seen he say he was WRONG, because he is still researching, latest is the new German treaty....LoL, and is scaremongering that Australia is going to go down that path, as opposed to admitting he was WRONG.

Article 18 was subject to the "provisions" of Article 19 and your advice, after banging on, and on, and on, about it's THE LAW, it's THE LEGISLATION, was to say, and I quote, "forget about Article 19." 

 

I have stopped researching for now on the effects of the provisions of Article 19 on Article 18 because it's a moot point.  My research now has turned to Australia updating its tax treaties with every country.  I'm guessing since the treaty with Thailand is 35 years old, it's probably being negotiated as we speak, particularly as there are so many Aussies living in Thailand.  I would think Bali / Indonesia would be not far behind, for the same reason.  Why would Australia hold off on getting their 15% tax from the thousands of expats that live in these locations, and lose practically ZERO votes in the process?  

 

You re holding on to the past to tightly.  Change is inevitable, especially when one set of laws is 90 years old, and the other is 35 years old, and they compliment each other. 

 

You bang on about how WRONG I am, when I am still researching the "provisions" but how WRONG were you about Germany, and probably other countries.  You were completely WRONG when you stated pensions do not pay tax in Australia or any other country.  Now you cling on to a 35 year old tax treaty and is set for change in the near future, and for what? 

 

Sure, we all continue to live tax free and continue to do what has been working for us, but the times are changing and the ground is shifting under our feet.

 

As I said in a previous post, months ago if I posted "Thailand are going to tax foreigners bringing in their money" I would have been ridiculed in the same way I was for posting about the proposed changes to tax residency.  There may have even been a ridiculous long list of hopeful reasons put forward by members as to was Thailand would never do such a thing.  Possible a comment such as, "That's only for guys like Thaksin."  

 

Yet, here we are, at the point of Thailand taxing foreigners.  

 

Look at the Stage 3 tax cuts.  You wake up one morning and here's Albo announcing the changes.  That's how quick it can happen.  We'll wake up one morning and the proposed changes to resident will be passed.  We'll wake up one morning and Australia will have a new tax treaty with Thailand, possibly including 15% tax on pensions. 

 

As I have previously posted, in my opinion, it's possible the updating of tax treaties is due to the imminent changing to the tax residency laws. 

 

What makes you think Australia would be any different?  Why would Aussies in Thailand get a free pass when Aussies in Germany don't?     

Edited February 12 by KhunHeineken