Working in exports- no work permit

[george]

Indo-Siam, everybody here *wish* it wourld be as you say, but real life in Thailand is different.

The authorities might not going around chasing people, the risk is if a girlfriend/former girlfriend/wife, farang or Thai enemy, landlord or former landlord or just anyone that does not like you, just reports you to the boys in brown.

Crime: Farang worked. Working is illegal without work permit. Period.

Result: Immigration Detention Center and deportation.

[NathanV23]

Okay george I see your point. So please tell me the options for a farang who does not have 6 million baht to form a company and get a work permit, who will not be hired by a thai company. Is it simply impossible and illegal to come here, buy product and ship it home for the purposes of selling?

Or are you saying that these activities would definetly qualify one for a non-im b visa at all embassies the world over? If not are you saying that the thai governemnt has provided no provision in the law for people who want here to buy product for export and have purposely made these activities illegal???

[dr_Pat_Pong]

What is your nationality Nathan, and where do you live ?

[NathanV23]

Hi Dr. Pat Pong,

California, US. Currently on holiday in the north.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Apply for a Non B multi at the RTCG Houston.  Very user friendly, whereas RTCG in LA is awful to deal with. Make sure you provide a letter on letterhead from your company seeking the visa to enable you to buy and export Thai goods. Phone 'em and ask what they need from you (713) 229 8733

[Roger13]

So if we follow IndoSiam's advice:

If we are confronted with an Accusation

of Working without a Work Permit,

We are going to rely on:

- Visa on Arrival

- ticking Other on TM6

- and  writing on our TM6 "Tourism + export/shipping"

How is anybody going to prove what he wrote

on the TM 6 that was accepted at Immigration.

Even if the Authorities were ready to consider this

defence - would they be able to find the TM 6 ?

I would not like to end up in that situation.

Roger

[NathanV23]

Hi Dr. Pat Pong,

Thanks very much for the advice. Will I automatically get a one year muliple entry visa or will it be a single entry 3 month? So I need documentation from my company in the states and should I also get letters from various suppliers here saying I need to come to discuss export possibilities? At any rate, I'll call them when I'm back in the states and let you all know what the results of this debate has been. It does semm to depend on what consulate you go to, which in itself doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[george]

So if we follow IndoSiam's advice:

If we are confronted with an Accusation

of Working without a Work Permit,

We are going to rely on:

- Visa on Arrival

- ticking Other on TM6

- and  writing on our TM6 "Tourism + export/shipping"

How is anybody going to prove what he wrote

on the TM 6 that was accepted at Immigration.

Even if the Authorities were ready to consider this

defence - would they be able to find the TM 6 ?

I would not like to end up in that situation.

Roger

No, no!!! You should arrive with a NON-Immigrant "B" and tick "business" on the TM card.

I doubt you will be able to ask them to dig out the TM-card for you from their mountain of papers when you are in Immigration custody. Just forget that.

[NathanV23]

My last question: Does everyoone agree that coming in on a non-im b visa would allow one to conduct the business of exporting product? Or are there still some of you who insist that one must have a work permit? (Eventhough it would be impossible to get with no 6 million baht and considering one wouldn't be working for a thai company).

As a matter of interest, my passport was stolen a while back. The embassy had it replaced and sent me to immigration to get my stamps in order. I couldn't remember the exact date I flew in on. They were'nt impressed. They sent me to a building a couple blocks away with a Thai janator who unlocked a padlock on a pair of double doors. Inside were hundreds of thousands of the cards we fill in on arrival (TM?) We started opening up box after box, flipping through all the cards. (They were semi arranged according to date) Four hours later, i had my card and my passport was sorted. Not something I wish to do again.

[Roger13]

I doubt you will be able to ask them to dig out the TM-card for you from their mountain of papers when you are in Immigration custody. Just forget that.

Exactly

[Roger13]

As a matter of interest, my passport was stolen a while back. The embassy had it replaced and sent me to immigration to get my stamps in order. I couldn't remember the exact date I flew in on. They were'nt impressed. They sent me to a building a couple blocks away with a Thai janator who unlocked a padlock on a pair of double doors. Inside were hundreds of thousands of the cards we fill in on arrival (TM?) We started opening up box after box, flipping through all the cards. (They were semi arranged according to date) Four hours later, i had my card and my passport was sorted. Not something I wish to do again.

Good grief

So it IS possible ...

- IF they will let YOU look?

But I doubt if you would get a

chance if you were in Custody ...

And I cannot imagine one of them

looking to prove you are Correct ??

[NathanV23]

Yes, it is possible, but they only let me go to the room because I needed the card to be able to leave the country. if I was being accused of something and the card could help me, I think the room would no longer exist. In any case, you can be sure that they aren't going to go look for themselves and let me ssure you, there is no air-con in that room.

[LPCustom69]

I have to admit that the posts in this topic were interesting. As I will be doing similar activities while in Thailand this fall I want to make sure that I have no hassles with the men in brown. Better safe than sorry. The differing opinions have me confused. I think that what Indo-Siam explained is the way that it SHOULD work, you have to remember that TIT!

:cool:

[NathanV23]

Hi LPCustom69,

I agree that in practice things would probably work how indo-siam spelled out. But the other guys have a point as far as if someone had a grudge against you, they could 'turn you in' and the men in brown would have cause to screw you. So if you can get a non-im b from some of the more relaxed consulates, then this seems the best way to go. IF you can't then I think it may be a risk, but not a big one (I may start a brand new debate with that one). Like i said before, if the law was absolutley enforced, then all shipping agents would be instructed to ask for a copy of the shipper's visa before shipping the goods. Good Luck.

[mrentoul]

In order to get a work permit, you must occupy a job position within the organizational structure of some sort of legal entity here.

That's what Indo-Siam says, in making the case that you don't need a work permit to export goods.

Elsewhere, Greg from Sunbelt Asia said a work permit *is* needed, and dr_Pat_Pong suggested Nathan go to a friendly embassy and obtain a non-immigrant B.

I would like to know what Nathan should do next, once he has his non-immigrant B, if he is to obtain a work permit in order to export.

Also, on whose behalf is he getting the non-immigrant B? I thought you had to have someone in Thailand willing to employ you first, as well as a letter of authorisation.

Indo-Siam may well be talking about a grey area, but I would be reluctant to take his advice. A TM6 card is not going to provide much protection in the event someone does question what you are doing.

His suggestion that you avoid contact with Thai officialdom and ask a good-looking Thai in the front office to make calls/visits sounds odd. And why go to all the trouble of setting up a representative office if a non-immigrant B will do?

It seems to me there is a big difference between comng here for a trade fair or a conference, and exporting goods so you can make a buck from them in your home country.

Those are goods made by Thais who might like to export them themselves, thanks very much. Why should a westerner be able to cruise in here, snap up cheap goods with lots of local content, and sell them for a huge profit margin back home, when Thais could be exporting those goods themselves?

But I'm getting off track. Could I invite someone from Sunbelt to answer those procedural questions above? It seems to be we haven't yet closed the loop.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I think your own letter will be sfficient, but ask 'em when you phone. In the letter say 'Mr x will be required to regularly visit Thailand on business in the course of the next year accordingly,we seek a multiple entry visa'. LA guards its territory somewhat, so if there is a jurisdictional issue raised ( which I doubt ) have you got a friend in or around Texas who will let you use his address ? You can download the application from the Embassy website in Washington DC.

[mrentoul]

I would like to know what Nathan should do next, once he has his non-immigrant B, if he is to obtain a work permit in order to export.

And this one?

[dr_Pat_Pong]

As an intermittent visitor without a corporate structure in Thailand,  I believe it is sound for him to do his short stay business with a B visa, and without a work permit but the tourist idea in not a possible option.

[mrentoul]

Thanks for clearing that up.

Notwithstanding what was said above, it seems a work permit is not needed, but a non-immigrant B is.

[NathanV23]

Thanks again Dr. Patpong. I've got a friend in Texas so I should be able to give it a try. I'll let the board know the results in a couple months. What is interesting to me is that if we talk pure law, then my situation wouldn't make me eligible for a non-immigrant b visa as there is no sponsoring company in Thailand, thus the need to go to a 'friendly' consulate.

Therefore, it seems that we can conclude that the Thai government has not provided any provision for 'casual exporters' who wish to come here, buy goods and ship them home to sell, but are not interested in or able to set up a thai company or work for a thai company. As exports is such a big industry here, this seems alsmost unbeliveable to me. Would you agree Dr. Pat Pong? There should be a special exporters Visa!

mrentoul, as far as taking away the exporting business from the thais, i think that overwhelmingly, the situation around the world is that certain people in certain countries are good at making various goods. However, they do not have the connections or time to sell them abroad. So they are more than happy to sell them to some white guy who thinks he can make a profit on them back home.

Also, i think everyone has agreed on one thing, that a non-im b lets you conduct business while a work permit allows you to actually be employed here. Let me know if anyone disagrees.

[mrentoul]

the Thai government has not provided any provision for 'casual exporters' who wish to come here, buy goods and ship them home to sell, but are not interested in or able to set up a thai company or work for a thai company. As exports is such a big industry here, this seems alsmost unbeliveable to me

You can get an immigrant-B if you come here as an investor. For that you have to have an enormous amount of money in your bank account that you are presumably willing to invest in your company, so of course they are not going to hand out non-immigrant Bs on a plate.

Why should they look after ''casual exporters'', as you put it, when they could attract credible investors who apart from putting money into the local economy will also create jobs?

Exporters who take local product and sell it overseas add nothing to the local economy other than what they pay for the goods. Seems pretty straight-forward to me, Nathan.

as far as taking away the exporting business from the thais, i think that overwhelmingly, the situation around the world is that certain people in certain countries are good at making various goods. However, they do not have the connections or time to sell them abroad. So they are more than happy to sell them to some white guy who thinks he can make a profit on them back home.

Some white guy? Please! The Thai government does its best to make connections with other countries so it can export such goods itself, or make it easier for Thai exporters to do the same rather than have foreigners coming in and doing it for them.

They are not ''more than happy'' to let you do it instead: that's patronising nonsense, though I accept you probably didn't mean it that way.

[Indo-Siam]

I'm going to contiunue to try to inject common sense into a discussion that is full of bizarre advice.

The Immigration Detention Center here is overwhelmingly populated by people who have overstayed their entry permits here.  I have never heard of someone here who was within their allowed 30 entry period being put into IDC for some other reason.

It is fairly rare for a westerner to be picked up on a work permit violation.  Of cases I am aware of, all of them were because someone was, in fact, working illegally - meaning that they had an employer who was paying them, the employer had a fixed office, and the violators were in fact performing some paid work within a structured job scenario.   Most arrest cases I am aware of were either English teachers  of boiler room scam artists.

It is beyond credibility to imagine a disgruntled bar girl choosing to go after a farang visitor by specifying a tenuous work permit violation.  Imagine the discussion with a policeman :

P:  OK, so his name is John Doe, and he's an American?

BG: That's right.

P:  And you say he's working here illegally?

BG:  Yes.

P:  OK, so who does he work for?

BG:  Well, he dosen't work for anybody.

P: OK, so where does he work?

BG:  Well, he's staying at the Grand President hotel.

P:  But - where does he perform this illegal work?

BG:  In his room, and at the internet cafe, and at the ATM, and at the Hotel Business Center.

P:  ????????   Well, so who pays him for this work?

BG:  Well, he doesn't actually get paid.  But - I think he makes money later.

P:  OK, so please describe the illegal job he performs.

BG:  Well, he goes around looking at merchandise, and obtaining quotations, and buying samples, and sending FAXes, and shipping out packages.

What do you guys think that a policeman is going to do, faced with this situation?  Go arrest the farang?  Give me a break.  Brings to mind Sharon Stone's character "So, Shooter, you gonna' arrest me for smoking?"

Think of it this way - they arrest you, and they are taking you to court, and they present their evidence that you have been "working in Thailand" -  a photo of you withdrawing money from an ATM, a photo of you sitting at a  computer in an Internet shop, a photo of you standing in a hotel business center, a photo of you standing in a factory lobby in Samutprakan, a copy of a FAX quotation you sent to your home state of Texas, a ATM withdrawal slip, a tax receipt for purchase of 100 Benjarong vases, and a FEDEX shipping bill showing that you shipped vases to Texas.  Do you guys really think that a Thai court will convict and jail (or deport) a US citizen for a crime, based on even this unusually thorough collection of hard evidence?  The suggestion is absurd.

If - through some extraordinary circumstance - a policeman somehow came to grasp your pattern of daily "work" activities, as described above - and if he somehow found your conduct questionable - he would not drag you off to jail.  Not for the "crimes" documented above.  At worst, he would advise you that you were approaching the line of unacceptable activity, and suggest that you stop and not proceed any further.

Some folks on this board have this delusion that the Police in Thailand are constantly looking for an excuse to throw westerners out of Thailand on the slightest excuse.  Thsi is simply not the case.

Have you guys ever heard of a Hotel Business Center in Thailand?   Is it your impression that hotel business centers are intended for use mainly by Thai residents with non-immigrant visas?   This is ridiculous.   Almost by definition, hotel business centers are for use by businessmen who are not residents here on non-immigrant status.    Do you think Hotel Business Centers are "bait" to trap unwary tourists who dare to dabble in business matters?

The absolute height of nonsense is the idea that if you come here with a  non-immigrant "B" visa, and you then do somehow get caught working without a work permit, you will be all right because you have a "B" visa.  No way.  If you do get caught, it is for working without a work permit.    

Read carefully:  

A visa is an authorization to enter a country.  It is NOT an authorization to do anything else.

In Thailand, an entry permit issued against a class "B" visa allows you to apply for a work permit.  An entry permit is also NOT an authorization to work.  

In Thailand, a work permit is the authorization to work.  Duh.....  

I have never seen such a collection of absurd nonsense on any one thread of any one discussion board.  

However, I do understand who runs this board, and I am not going to push any more against the primary hosts and sponsors.  My comments have all been based on common sense, straightforward explanation, and use of specific, concrete examples and scenarios.  I will let the audience make up their own minds.  

I work with work permit applications and entry permit extensions almost every week.  I also run a soucing service that helps overseas buyers by doing preliminary vendor screenings in advance of their sourcing trips, then escorting them during their sourcing visits, then assisting them with follow-on coordination of samples, pricing negotiations, consolidation of goods, and outbound shipment.  If anyone would have an incentive to tell people that they need a company, or a work permit, or a non-immigrant entry permit, it would be me.   My sorcing business would benefit if I told people that they could not do it themselves, and they needed to use my service.

If anyone wants to argue the points - please do so.  Throwing insults and demeaning comments at me is not going to improve the validity of your argument, or undermine the validity of mine.

Steve Sykes

Managing Director

Indo-Siam Group

[mrentoul]

The absolute height of nonsense is the idea that if you come here with a  non-immigrant "B" visa, and you then do somehow get caught working without a work permit, you will be all right because you have a "B" visa.  No way.  If you do get caught, it is for working without a work permit.  

I am not sure I read that bit anywhere. Did I?

In Thailand, an entry permit issued against a class "B" visa allows you to apply for a work permit.  An entry permit is also NOT an authorization to work.  

Again, how does this come into the argument?

[NathanV23]

Why should they look after ''casual exporters'', as you put it, when they could attract credible investors who apart from putting money into the local economy will also create jobs?

Exporters who take local product and sell it overseas add nothing to the local economy other than what they pay for the goods. Seems pretty straight-forward to me, Nathan.

as far as taking away the exporting business from the thais, i think that overwhelmingly, the situation around the world is that certain people in certain countries are good at making various goods. However, they do not have the connections or time to sell them abroad. So they are more than happy to sell them to some white guy who thinks he can make a profit on them back home.

Some white guy? Please! The Thai government does its best to make connections with other countries so it can export such goods itself, or make it easier for Thai exporters to do the same rather than have foreigners coming in and doing it for them.

They are not ''more than happy'' to let you do it instead: that's patronising nonsense, though I accept you probably didn't mean it that way.

No, didn't mean to write patronising nonsense. I believe you are correct in terms of the thai government looking to attract 'credible investors' as you put it. But of course their efforts are at a multi-national level i.e. bringing a honda plant here, setting up rice purchase agreements etc.

I would venture to say that casual exporters (say exporting $1000 to $5000 worth of goods a month, buying from locals) contribute enormously to thailand's economy, especially  in poorer regions where there aren't many jobs, but there does exist creative and talented people who can create goods desired in Western markets. In that respect, of course they should look after casual exporters.

Have you been to UPS, DHL and Fed Ex in Chiang Mai? Everyday there are dozens of casual exporters shipping goods. Are you saying this has no positive impact on the ecomony and these people are simply taking away jobs from thais who somehow would be capable of finding a market for the goods abroad?

Anyway, the point is to come to a conclusion as to how to export product from LOS for a profit and do it completely by the book. I'm glad to see there has been lots of input.

[Sunbelt Asia]

The Alien Employment Act

This Act states that "a foreigner cannot perform any act of work or service unless a work permit has been issued by the Employment Department or the individual or the work performed falls within an exception to the Act."

Here, the term "work" is taken to mean "working by exerting one's physical energy or employing one's knowledge whether or not for wages or other benefits". Theoretically, all volunteer or charity work also require work permits. Volunteer teachers are required to obtain work permits even though they receive no remuneration for the work performed.

If you are coming to work for a short period you can obtain the permit called “Urgent and Essential Work” for 15 days:

What you need:

1/. You must have a registered company outside Thailand.

2/. Must have company papers and registration papers of said company.

3/. If already living in Thailand & on a non immigrant visa or even have a tourist visa on Holiday this is OK to apply for this temp permit.

4/.  Form TOR. THOR. 11.  attached with front view photograph of 5by 6 cms. In size (taken not more than 6 months)

The requirements is granted to aliens who enter the Kingdom temporarily, but in accordance with the immigration law, to perform any work of any "urgent and essential nature" for a period not exceeding 15 days. However, such aliens may engage in work only after a written notification on a prescribed form, signed by the alien has been submitted to and accepted by the Director-General or his designee.  

These are the following descriptions allowed

1. ADMINISTRATIVE AND EDUCATIONAL WORKS.

1.1 CONFERENCE, DISCUSSION, SEMINAR OR BUSINESS INVITATION WORKS.

1.2 TEMPORAY INTERNAL AUDIT 1.3 SPECIALLECTURE AND EDUCATIONAL WORKS

1.4 AVIATION SUPERINTENDENT WORK .

2. TECHNICAL WORK

2.1 INSPECTION, FOLLOW-UP AND TECHNICAL SOLUTION WORKS.

2.2 MEETING WORK ON MACHINERY INSTALLATION AND TECHNIPUE.

2.3 AIRCRAFT ENGINEERING WORK, AIRCRAFT MECHANICAL WORK.

2.4 MACHINE REPAIN\RING OR INSTALLING WORK.

2.5 PETROLEUM TECHNICAL WORK.

2.6 MACHINERY DEMONSTRATIVE OR TESTING WORK.

2.7 TECHNICAL TRAINING AND SEMINAR WORK.

2.8 MOVIE TAKING WORK.

4. MISCELLANEOUS WORK

4.1 PURCHASING/EXPORTING WORK.

4.2 TOUR LIAISON

4.3 PUBLIC CONTRIBUTION WORK WHICH IS OF NON-COMMERCIAL OR

NON-PROFIT OBJECTIVES.

5. WORKS WHICH THE DIRECTOR-GENERAL OR THE OFFICER AUTHORIZED BY THE DIRECTOR-GENERAL SHALL DEEM APPROPRIATE TO ACCEPT SPECIAL NOTIFICATIONS UPON INTERIM NECESSITY.

[NathanV23]

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the response. I think you make a number of good points. At this point, I don't really know what's what anymore, but I do tend to agree with what you are saying.

The non-im b visa verses work permit is an interesting point. I've come across some info that also says a non-im b does not allow you to conduct business, it only allows you to apply for a work permit. George, Dr. Pat Pong, what's your call?

At the very least, this debate has all been quite entertaining. We're the leading topic of discussion day in and day out.

[NathanV23]

Here, the term "work" is taken to mean "working by exerting one's physical energy or employing one's knowledge whether or not for wages or other benefits". Theoretically, all volunteer or charity work also require work permits. Volunteer teachers are required to obtain work permits even though they receive no remuneration for the work performed.

I think theoretically is the key word. The law as it is written and the law as it is practiced may be and seem to be two different things. As Steve said, you don't see immigration police monitoring the business centres of the Kingdom's hotels.

Sunbelt- According to you then, the absolutley only way to do it legally would be to pay 6 million baht and set up a company or find employmnet with a thai firm (although I don't see how that would allow you to go out sourcing and shipping product) right?

[mrentoul]

Quote:The non-im b visa verses work permit is an interesting point. I've come across some info that also says a non-im b does not allow you to conduct business, it only allows you to apply for a work permit. George, Dr. Pat Pong, what's your call? End quote.

Well you heard from dr_Pat_Pong earlier, who said no work permit was needed. Greg, however, says you do need one. An an exception is made for people on short stays, but it's still a permit of sorts (involves paperwork).

By the looks of it, if you're a tourist visiting here and come across a woman making stunning silk scarves, for example, and decide to place an order on the spot, you could apply for a permit allowing you to perform ''urgent and essential work'' (or you do it illegally - OK, informally - as the guy from Indo-Siam would have you do).

Quote: Have you been to UPS, DHL and Fed Ex in Chiang Mai? Everyday there are dozens of casual exporters shipping goods. Are you saying this has no positive impact on the ecomony and these people are simply taking away jobs from thais who somehow would be capable of finding a market for the goods abroad? End quote.

You're right, of course. I was unreasonable. I am sure it does create an impact on the economy. I wonder how many of them are doing it legally, and if the government really cares? That seems to be the question we are addressing here.

I don't like the idea of all these guys with $10 to their name shipping off locally-made goods in the hope of making a huge killing overseas, but ultimately it's not my problem.

I bet if they are buying in bulk they are getting them cheap, and I wonder how many of these local suppliers made enough money from the deal to invest in machinery, staff to meet export orders, or whether the transaction is essentially the same as that between a vendor and a tourist?

Few, I would say, but that would not apply in all cases.

I recall reading an item in the Bangkok Post recently about a western fashion designer who, while on a visit here for a trade show (I think), discovered Thai silk scarves made from an unusual kind of silk, and decided to sell them abroad.

Before she left she put as many in her suitcase as she could (as you do). She came back on later visits to work out the details. Hopefully as a result of her efforts the village women who made them will see some benefit. In this case the designer is a ''name'' overseas so that might just be the happy outcome.

[NathanV23]

Have you been to UPS, DHL and Fed Ex in Chiang Mai? Everyday there are dozens of casual exporters shipping goods. Are you saying this has no positive impact on the ecomony and these people are simply taking away jobs from thais who somehow would be capable of finding a market for the goods abroad?

You're right, of course. I was unreasonable. I am sure it does create an impact on the economy. I wonder how many of them are doing it legally, and if the government really cares? That seems to be the question we are addressing here.

I don't like the idea of all these guys with $10 to their name shipping off localy-made goods in the hope of making a huge killing overseas, but ultimately it's not my problem.

I bet if they are buying in bulk they are getting them cheap, and I wonder how many of these local suppliers have the capital to invest in machinery, staff to meet export orders? Few, I would say, but that would not apply in all cases.

My idea from the beginning has been that the governemnt tolerates small exporters buying and shipping goods for the exact reason that it does contribute so greatly to the economy. Otherwise, why don't they ask to see my work permit of anyone shipping large amounts of product?

Even if they only have $10 to their names, to me anyway, they are still more help than harm. Afterall, they are buying goods produced by Thais. If no one bought the goods, what would the person making them do?

And the point you raise is exactly right. They don't have the capital or know how (the vast majority anyway) to sell it themselves abroad. that is why they happily sell to the farang. if they knew how to sell it abroad, they would tell thr farang to get lost. I am a farang with connections overseas and I know how difficult it is to set up a real business. So if the average thai who makes the goods could do it, then I would be very impressed and by all means, they deserve whatever profit they make.

Thanks for your ideas. Are we all clear now on what you need to export from thailand?

[mrentoul]

Even if they only have $10 to their names, to me anyway, they are still more help than harm. Afterall, they are buying goods produced by Thais. If no one bought the goods, what would the person making them do?

Who says noone would buy the goods? I can tell I'm backing myself into one of these grim corners of left-wing spongy logic that I spend most of my time avoiding, because I'm actually one of the most right-wing (and pro-business) people I know.

That said, I want to tell you a little story. I recall a while ago on these boards some westerner popping up to say he's found this terrific export venture (so good he wasn't prepared to share the details).

To him, you know what the best part was? He didn't have to deal with any Thais. That was it!

Just a smash and grab, another case of 'us' and 'them', so to speak. Presumably he had one Thai guy who was prepared to do all the work for him (ordering, collecting, shipping produce) for a pittance. In fact, I think he boasted as much.

My idea from the beginning has been that the governemnt tolerates small exporters buying and shipping goods for the exact reason that it does contribute so greatly to the economy.

Haven't head that one before.

don't have the capital or know how (the vast majority anyway) to sell it themselves abroad. that is why they happily sell to the farang

That wasn't quite the point I was making. I was asking whether the transaction would really be any different from that between a vendor and tourist ie what extra benefit do the Thais get?

It would be nice if they made enough to take on extra people or put money in the bank, but I doubt it.

On the other hand, a sale is a sale, and you are right in arguing that (for the time being, anyway) many Thais don't have the wherewithal to sell abroad, or even to order: hence the one-tambon one-product campaign.

A similar argument pertains to native indigenous products, or products made with ''traditional knowledge''. That brings up the related topic of patents, which will have to wait another day.