Criminal Architecture

[p1p]

I am looking for nominations for the worst case of ugly architecture in Chiang Mai & surrounds. There are some truly beautiful buildings here, but some of these modern monstrosities are truly vomit inducing.

My personal pet hate, which has to be the ugliest house in the universe, is the vile, blue roofed migraine between the schools in World Club Land. You need a sick bag to drive past it.

[chanchao]

Yes, but it's out of the way. I think a main contributing factor should also be the number of people who have to deal with the monstrosity on a daily basis.

Then there are the buildings that aren't ugly per se, but just out of place, i.e. in the wrong spot. Rydges Amora Hotel comes to mind.

Then I know many people list Central / Kad Suan Kaew but I don't think it's all that ugly. Imagine it being white painted concrete instead of the much easier on the eye brick. While on the topic of department stores, note how much nicer Airport Plaza looks compared to 10 years ago, AND it's 3 times the size it used to be.

And even if the new Panthip computer mall isn't going to be a success (but I pray it will be, it's *SO* nice), at least that eyesore unfinished skeleton is now out of the way. Yes, I call 'em as I see 'em, a positive development!

Some 60-70's era concrete buildings are seriuously ugly, fortunately Chiang Mai hasn't got THAT many of them for its size and compared to other cities. But GOD are they ugly. Some old hotel and appartment buildings are in this category. Summit hotel (?) comes to mind, the one you find on your right hand when you take a right turn at the Ratwithee traffic lights after passing the Irish Pub.

Definitely on my list, perhaps I'll make it my number one, is the row of shophouses ON Thapae Square in front of Thapae Gate. Rumour has it that they are illegal there. Illegal or not: my main reason for including them is not that they're so much more ugly than other buildings all over the place, but rather the thought of how much NICER that whole space would look if those buildings were not there. Oh and then the huge billboard on the other side of Thapae square also has to go to; then the relative greenery of the moat and the wall/gate + open space of Thapae would just flow nicely along the Eastern moat. One day.

I'll stop now.

Cheers,

Chanchao

[p1p]

I think a main contributing factor should also be the number of people who have to deal with the monstrosity on a daily basis.

Yes, I agree that has to be a weighting factor, but the degree of illness caused by viewing only the one time has to be a major factor.

I also agree with your choices there. Other "out of place buildings should surely be the Sheraton, ex Westin with the condo building and hospital beside it. Ruining apotentially beautiful piece of riverbank.

[chanchao]

Yes.. but then again, as an international city you kind of need at leas one big 5 star hotel 'somewhere'. Otherwise you wouldn't get many national and international conventions and business. Westin/Sheraton is still the only 5 star location in town. More worrying than where that one is would be the new 5 star hotels being built.. I'm sure architecture won't be that ugly, but they WILL be big, and at least one will be right on the river.

[cutethaigirl]

I also agree with your choices there. Other "out of place buildings should surely be the Sheraton, ex Westin with the condo building and hospital beside it. Ruining apotentially beautiful piece of riverbank

But providing jobs, income, facilities for thousands of people.

There is plenty of riverbanks in Chiangmai to look at?

That area is a commercial one?

You can describe ugly as any of the many once white builings that are never painted or looked after and go black.

have a look at the row near to the large sonysign on hang dong rd?

ct

[Norman d'Plume]

All the above must have some redeeming features, although I can not yet think of any for that blue monstrosity.

The one piece of architecture that truly stands out and hits you in the eye is the massive erection at the entrance to World Club Land. This gigantic skinned pen15 with its dark pink stem and bulbular crimson head apeared after the Christian hosers took over there and I have always felt it might actually be intended to represent them giving the finger to the Thai population at large. Its closer resemblance to a massively erect male member is hopefully just coincidental.

Norm

[Ajarn]

I would consider the cartoonish tacky plastic L.A.-style sign for the Bear's Den as 'criminal' architecture...right along with Mike's Hamburger sign.

[meadish_sweetball]

Yes.. but then again, as an international city you kind of need at leas one big 5 star hotel 'somewhere'. Otherwise you wouldn't get many national and international conventions and business. Westin/Sheraton is still the only 5 star location in town. More worrying than where that one is would be the new 5 star hotels being built.. I'm sure architecture won't be that ugly, but they WILL be big, and at least one will be right on the river.

The hotel on the river at the very end of Thanon Sri Donchai, the Chedi, does not seem about to become another eyesore - they are allegedly going for the crème de la crème, and aiming to give the facilities a 'spa' profile- so it won't ruin the waterfront any more than what is already there. As for the other 5-stars being built - Shangri-La etc., I don't know what they are planning.

I sure hope they are not trying to achieve an area similar to the five-star congregation near Saphaan Taaksin in Bangkok... On second thoughts, I think the Shangri-La is establishing themselves in San Kamphaeng, if I am not totally mistaken.

[sabaijai]

Then there are the buildings that aren't ugly per se, but just out of place, i.e. in the wrong spot. Rydges Amora Hotel comes to mind.

If there is one building in Chiang Mai that qualifies as Criminal Architecture, it's the Rydges. First off, when the perps wanted to build the place on land that was previously the New Chiangmai Hotel, they realised they needed more land, so they offered to buy the adjacent property on the Chang Moi Kao Rd side of that block. Its owner, Ajahn Niran, ran an exemplary guesthouse called Chang Moi House in a large old wooden house on the property. Aj Niran refused to sell, as it had been her home for many years and she was doing well with her guesthouse, the first in that area (predating Daret and Happy House by many years). Aj Niran was a tourism lecturer at the local Rajabhat U, and many of her students interned there, so Chang Moi House performed an educational function as well.

Next thing you know her house has been burnt to the ground and it's common knowledge who torched it. She's forced to sell the land to the neighbours as she doesn't have enough money to rebuild, nor does she want to suffer arson or other harassment again.

So the new owners expand into Niran's land and file for a building permit. The original permit calls for no more than three stories, so as not to tower over nearby Wat Ou Kham and the moat. There's a municipal ordinance forbidding the construction of any building over three stories near the moat, old city walls, the river or any monastery.

End result, one less historic example of vernacular Chiang Mai architecture, one more towering example of city corruption.

I can't think of any more fitting example of Criminal Architecture in the city ... though there are many more.

[Ajarn]

sabaijai, I remember the guesthouse, but I never knew the rest of the story. I agree, The Rydges is a true example of criminal architecture.

I sure won't be suggesting that hotel to anyone, with that kind of Karma attached. And if I do hear someone recommend The Rydges, I will surely provide some balance to that suggestion in the form of relating that story.

[cutethaigirl]

I sure won't be suggesting that hotel to anyone, with that kind of Karma attached. And if I do hear someone recommend The Rydges, I will surely provide some balance to that suggestion in the form of relating that story

Be careful:-)

Is the story proven?

i thought the owners of Rydges were Australian?

hpow do they operate in the way sabajai described?

interesting story......

[Ajarn]

I sure won't be suggesting that hotel to anyone, with that kind of Karma attached. And if I do hear someone recommend The Rydges, I will surely provide some balance to that suggestion in the form of relating that story

Be careful:-)

Is the story proven?

interesting story......

Yes, good point, and assumptive on my part, I agree. Frankly, I'm relying (overly?) on my perceived credibilty of sabaijai. I believe he wouldn't post it if it was only rumour without labeling it as such. He has never given my any indication that he is anything other than a man of honesty and integrity.

But, this is the internet, na'?

[sabaijai]

I sure won't be suggesting that hotel to anyone, with that kind of Karma attached. And if I do hear someone recommend The Rydges, I will surely provide some balance to that suggestion in the form of relating that story

Be careful:-)

Is the story proven?

i thought the owners of Rydges were Australian?

hpow do they operate in the way sabajai described?

interesting story......

I was at the site the day after it was torched, and the police themselves said it looked like arson, it was pretty big news at the time.

Rydges Arnoma had (maybe still has) Aussie management but I assume it's 100% Thai-owned, like virtually every hotel in Chiang Mai and elsewhere in Thailand. Yes that includes the Four Seasons, Sheraton, etc -- these franchise names all belong to hotel management companies hired by Thai owners to manage their properties for X number of years (which is why they change names so often). The new Dhara Dhevi resort, for example, is owned by Suchet Suwanmongkol, who has contracted the Mandarin-Oriental to manage it.

Is the story "proven"? Well you can ask around town and you'll find plenty of folks corroborating the purchase refusal/arson story, it's pretty much common knowledge/theory, at least among those in the tourism business. It's hard to prove these things when big fish are involved. I'm happy to settle for "alleged" arson ... and if anyone has a reason to refute the story, I'd love to hear it.

As far as the law about building heights goes, it has been published in City Life before, and you can get a copy of the law for yourself at the local thetsabaan.

With most of the high-rise, high-investment buildings in town, you'll find a skeleton or two in the closet if you make the effort to look. Another *allegedly* illegal building is Royal Lanna, built without a permit but who needs a permit when the owner is the local land office commissioner.

How do they get away with it? Friends in high places.

Edited October 16, 2004 by sabaijai

[Ice Treasure]

I sure won't be suggesting that hotel to anyone, with that kind of Karma attached. And if I do hear someone recommend The Rydges, I will surely provide some balance to that suggestion in the form of relating that story

Be careful:-)

Is the story proven?

i thought the owners of Rydges were Australian?

hpow do they operate in the way sabajai described?

interesting story......

I was at the site the day after it was torched, and the police themselves said it looked like arson, it was pretty big news at the time.

Rydges Arnoma had (maybe still has) Aussie management but I assume it's 100% Thai-owned, like virtually every hotel in Chiang Mai and elsewhere in Thailand. Yes that includes the Four Seasons, Sheraton, etc -- these franchise names all belong to hotel management companies hired by Thai owners to manage their properties for X number of years (which is why they change names so often). The new Dhara Dhevi resort, for example, is owned by Suchet Suwanmongkol, who has contracted the Mandarin-Oriental to manage it.

Is the story "proven"? Well you can ask around town and you'll find plenty of folks corroborating the purchase refusal/arson story, it's pretty much common knowledge/theory, at least among those in the tourism business. It's hard to prove these things when big fish are involved. I'm happy to settle for "alleged" arson ... and if anyone has a reason to refute the story, I'd love to hear it.

As far as the law about building heights goes, it has been published in City Life before, and you can get a copy of the law for yourself at the local thetsabaan.

With most of the high-rise, high-investment buildings in town, you'll find a skeleton or two in the closet if you make the effort to look. Another *allegedly* illegal building is Royal Lanna, built without a permit but who needs a permit when the owner is the local land office commissioner.

How do they get away with it? Friends in high places.

Well done Sabai Jai. Perhaps there is a possibility of providing anything that smells like proof? Oh no! no proof! someone said it! That makes it true.

**offensive flame deleted**. Doing that gives it truth in the minds of morons. Look indeed at City Life. If it was there it's certainly true.

***more offensive language in flagrant violation of forum guidelines deleted***

Edited October 17, 2004 by sabaijai

[cutethaigirl]

Sabaijai

just to be clear i was not doubting your story.

it is truly a BAD BAD thing to be happening:-(

makes me wonder why so many people can go to the temple one day and think to do things to make more money and not care about anything else the next :-(

[Ice Treasure]

Well I doubt his story.

The frame of the hotel was purchased from the people who put it up, after it sat there for I would think 4 or 5 years, after the politician who originally did it, ran out of cash.

Rydges Amora went up in place of a concrete car park, with no walls, and no interior. Five years it was like that, at least. It was purchased for a song which covered costs, and instead of a green fence and a concrete monstrosity which your beloved city fathers, (also morons like SJ), would have left there, we have a reasonable attractive building. Not everyones' architectural cup of tea, but something anyway.

Which looks better? Rydges or the frame that sat there for years and you didn't notice?

As to how the land came to have a hotel on it, to reiterate in short words, it was a frame already in place when it was purchased outright from the politician who started it.

Ask Taksin who did it. Rydges made the site at least livable, and less of an eyesore than it was, and it brings people to the city. What have you done recently for the city SJ?

[Ajarn]

makes me wonder why so many people can go to the temple one day and think to do things to make more money and not care about anything else the next :-(

To be fair, I don't think there's much difference in any other religion or place of prayer....Human nature, I suppose

Anyway, the real sad part of this story is that there are likely many more Ajarn Nirans around....

And plenty with Ice Treasure's atitudes, too.

[cutethaigirl]

Which looks better? Rydges or the frame that sat there for years and you didn't notice?

IT

yes i remember looking at that eye hurt for many years.

yes i too remember when the rydges almost suddenly appeared.

if the frame was already there and rydges have not made it any bigger - or have they? - why was there a fire at the guesthouse?

what is NOW where the guesthouse was?

ct

[Ice Treasure]

And plenty with Ice Treasure's atitudes, too. 

Which attitude would that be, ajarn. The one about utilising facts instead of blowing it out your butt?

I heard... he said.. she said... etc are gossip starters. They are not indicative of facts. You sir, are old enough to behave in a somewhat more thoughful manner, especially considering you have no FACTS, merely gossip, and my attitude is about that, not the Hotel. In fact, I went and got the facts from the hotel itself, not from Johns Bar.

In my opinion as expressed here and elsewhere if a few less falang had a few more things to do, they wouldn't be spending so much time ***offensive language removed, warning level increased*** everyone, since "my hairdressers' wifes' cook" told me so, and there Sir, is my attitude.

It has nothing to do with architecture, it has to do with bare faced lies and gossip as espoused by your good self and others, purporting to represent facts, in order to ensure your name was seen.

I would encourage you to actually read what people post, as opposed to seeing your name, read a negative, and begin another assault which in its undertaking, proves that there are likely better sobriquets for you, than "teacher".

Edited October 17, 2004 by sabaijai

[Ajarn]

And plenty with Ice Treasure's atitudes, too. 

Which attitude would that be, ajarn.

The name calling, insults and such..

[Ice Treasure]

And plenty with Ice Treasure's atitudes, too. 

Which attitude would that be, ajarn.

The name calling, insults and such..

True enough. I shouldn't call people morons. No matter how they behave. My apologies.

For CTG, I don't know why the fire, nor do you nor does anyone but the one who started it and the one who sent them, if it was arson. Let's face it, Thai police aren't world renowned for their investigative integrity.

One thing I do know is, I don't know, and many others don't know. The way Ajarn wrote, it appears to be blaming Rydges Management for the fire which is palpable crap. It also appears he has first hand knowledge of what happened and I am still waiting for him to mention that he has no such knowledge, or to back up the knowledge he has with facts as opposed to malicious, spinsterly gossip.

Have a nice day.

[Ajarn]

The way Ajarn wrote, it appears to be blaming Rydges Management

Just to be clear, I don't blame the Rydges Management. In fact, I referred to the Karma from such a terrible thing as to burn someone out of their home. In my view, supporting a business that got started by using those means would only encourage more of the same nefarious business practices somewhere else. Even if the Rydges were sold to someone else, I would feel the same about that property.

And I think I clearly expressed my reasons why I believe the scenario sabaijai related is true. I still have seen no reason to change my opinion.

Right or wrong, that's how I feel. If I'm wrong, I'm sure there will be Karma for me, too, and I accept my responsibility for my words and actions. No other real options, na'?

[sabaijai]

When the New Chiangmai Hotel was demolished and a new hotel begun (the 'ugly frame'), that project ran out of steam, for whatever reason. When the new owner decided to try again with a larger hotel project, he needed the land adjacent -- Aj Niran's land, facing Chang Moi Kao Road. The ugly frame being referred to here did not occupy the plot that held Chang Moi House, only a lot facing Chaiyaphum Rd.

That's when the house was torched. The police investigated the case as arson, that's not hearsay. They never brought the case to prosecution. [Aside: As in the murder of Kirsty Jones at the Aree Guesthouse, that a murder took place isn't hearsay, it's fact. But no conviction, the case was never solved.] I was on the site the day after the burning and I knew the people affected. Police investigators publicly stated they suspected arson, and it was initially reported in local news as alleged arson. And as with the Kirsty Jones case, there was a prime suspect (in this case the owner of the property -- no one's saying Rydges was involved, they hadn't even been contracted to manage the property at that point), but the police, for whatever reasons, failed to bring the case to a conclusion.

Edited October 17, 2004 by sabaijai

[Mali_in_CM]

I think Rydges qualifies as criminal architecture because of the arson.

[Pantip]

As a regular lurker of this board I would like to complement the contributors and the moderator for allowing strong opposing opinions to be expressed. These forcefully put opinions (for that’s all they are) generate very interesting responses and information on topics that most of us farang are completely unaware of. I’ve been living here for many years and still learning.

I think that we have to thank ICE for being the “Devils Advocate” even if his language might have been a bit over the top.

[chuchok]

ICE did not just play the “Devils Advocate”...he was a know-it-all twerp.wonder where he has gone?

[Ajarn]

As a regular lurker of this board I would like to complement the contributors and the moderator for allowing strong opposing opinions to be expressed. These forcefully put opinions (for that’s all they are)  generate very interesting responses and information on topics that most of us farang are completely unaware of. I’ve been living here for many years and still learning.

I think that we have to thank ICE for being the “Devils Advocate” even if his language might have been a bit over the top.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Though I agree with your sentiment, I feel CuteThaiGirl (RIP) played the Devils Advocate in a much more reasonable and polite way than 'Ice'... For me, language is rarely an issue ('sticks and stones' etc,). I use 'bad' words a lot, but Ice's attitude was often rude, obnoxious, and unreasonable, imo.

And chuckchoke, the last I heard, Ice had vowed to post only in the gay forum...

[sabaijai]

Ice Treasure has twice been banned on thaivisa.com (and is currently banned). He was also an employee at Rydges before he was dismissed last year.

The police blotter states the fire was arson, and the neighbours have signed witness statements.

So we're talking opinions versus facts, not opposing opinions. The only issue still in dispute is who ordered the fire. As with any crime, the usual procedure is to suspect those who might derive the most benefit from the act.

According to IT, such reasoning makes you a 'moron'.

If anyone has additional facts about this series of events, I'm sure we'd all be interested in hearing them.