Dear Potential Counselors:

Please don't roll your eyes and think "here we go again." Please remember that I am a newbie and need help from you who are veterans of situations such as mine.

I met a massage boy (Ok! I know you just rolled your eyes!) in November and I have fallen in love with him. He is 30 and I am 50 years old. He is well build for 30 but he has average looks. I am overweight but considered nice looking. I am not "old-acting," either. Even though I have read some of the posts with recurrent themes of "gold digging." "two-timing," "deception," and "lying," I still want to plead for thoughtful analysis after digesting the entire post.

Since meeting him in November, I have returned in March, April, and I will leave this month as well. He stays with me the entire time in the hotel room. He is very attentive, meets my needs, and we have a good time together.

He began asking that I help him with his apartment rent and motorbike payments after I was back in the USA. The monthly amounts gradually increased from 4000 b to 15,000 b with intermediate amounts in-between but always a bit higher each consecutive time. The amounts are always justified as to the specifics for what he needs the money. He says that the massage business is slow in Pattaya this time of year, and I have verified that to be true.

I don't expect him to stop working as a massage boy since I am not living there to take care of him. However, it bothers me more and more as the relationship deepens on my part, of him having sex with customers. Please don't come back with lines like, "Well, you knew what he was when you hooked up with him." I can do nothing about that now, so I grudgingly accept it. I know that the more he does, the more he gets paid. But, back to the story...

At the end of the March visit, he gave me one of his rings (no precious metal but it was his) and he asked me to come back in one year and marry him. Even though I realize gay marriages in Thailand are not recognized, this was very unexpected and I was honored by the request. I was perfectly happy just seeing him on a holiday-to-holiday basis, but this increased the stakes for me in the relationship. He shared very personal information with me about his previous love life (with both women and men). He told me that he has a son and I have even spoken to him on the phone--broken English on his part, poor Thai on mine! Knowing that I would be responsible for my BF and his son brought new meaning to my life; it's a challenge that I cheerfully accept.

On my April visit, while we were in bed, be patted my rear and asked me was I being f*ed by any other Thai boy or American "falang." I honestly answered, "No." He seemed pleased. My thought here is: If I am being swindled, then why would he ask such a question? Why would he even care? Why would that even cross his mind to ask if all he wanted was the money?

Another thought: In a relationship that he thought was "long-term," the guy left him for another Thai boy. He wrote me a letter expressing that he was scared I would find another Thai boy and "forget him." I assured him that I would not. (While I see how this could be a "hook" technique, in light of everything else, I just do not think it is. It might be, I will concede that much.)

I have received texts from him that basically say the same thing others on here have testified receiving: I love you so much, I miss you, I miss you too much, big kiss for you, on and on. I do not mind this because I know his spoken English is very limited and his writing English is practically nonexistent. He even told me that his friend puts the English in his cell phone and he just selects one of the templates and sends it. I would do the same thing if I had the Thai templates in my phone!

He wants to start a restaurant and I want to buy one for him when I move there. I want this restaurant business to take him away from being a massage boy and I certainly never want his (our) son to have to do that for money! I understand that the cultural mindset in Thailand is very different from ours in the USA and things that are "problems for falangs" are not necessarily problems for Thais. I know that married men and women go work at the massage and beer bars, have sex with customers, and then go back home and be together as a family.

So please tell me, O Great Sages of Thai Knowledge, your analyses of my situation. Don't tell me what I want to hear, however please don't give a knee-jerk negative response either. I want this to be genuine and real on his part because it is on mine. While the positive and negative opinions can be equally argued, after giving your opinion, will you give me some ideas on how to verify his sincerity? I need to know before I ruin my life here over something that may or may not be genuine.

Gratefully yours,

ALEX

If you told him tomorrow he is the love of your life, however, you no longer can afford to support him, even 1000 baht a month, would he still be "with" you?

OK, I might have a hard heart, but that's the way it is, baby.

Hi Alex: I've been in Thailand for almost 5 years. I've heard this story many times. On of my Thai friends is so assounded that we farang are so easily taken in! I wish I could be more supportive of you and your situation. I've always had a way of handling anyone. When they ask for money..that ends the friendship/relationship.....I don't care what the story or excuse for needing of money...but if I gave money to every Thai man who needed it, I'd be on a corner with a cup in my hand.

You can not varify your boyfriends story. You either believe him or not. It takes a lot of time to know anyone...Thai or otherwise.

I have a Thai boyfriend. We've been together for 19 months. He doesn't live with me on a full time basis but we see each other every day. I've met his mom and other members of his family. He comes from a well-to-do family, had an education and works. He has never asked me for money and IF HE DID...well...that would end it!

I am not your average westerner...I don't have a big income to support anyone but myself. So I can't relate to you being able to give your boyfriend 15,000bht a month....just not in my income level.

BUT you if you are happy with this man and trust him..then do what you think is best for you. ONE thing you will find out, if you don't know yet....you will NEVER be number one! It's just not the Thai thing. Family will always come first, then other Thais. So don't expect to ever be number one...no matter what your boyfriend tells you.

Also, when a Thai says "I love You" it's not the same as a westerner. Keep in mind that there is a culture and way of life here that is so different from our western ways. A good book to read is Thai Feaver. You can get this in almost any book story and it will help you to understand the Thai culture and way of life here. It is in Thai and English...so get your boyfriend to read this also....it will help him to understand YOU!

I hope I haven't been too negative for you. I have been honest and hope you will take all that I've said as honest.

I wish you the best. Take care......DON

Hmm I had a similar situation but my boy gave up work and I sent him a little money until I came back and we set up home together, he (says) he loves me dearly and everyone that meets us say how sweet he is and how lucky I am to find him. The only down side was (is) trying to curb his natural Thai culture of spend today don't worry about tomorrow. We have many arguments over money as he does not seem to undestand the concept of retirement and living on a pension, however, I have finally got through and he is now actively seeking work in the shopping malls and cinemas where he has previous experience. Your situation does seem to be the classic money boy, professes undying love and then asks for increasing amounts of money. You want to buy him a restaurant? have you seen how many there are in Pattaya , many going downhil rapidly due to two poor low seasons plus mandatory no alcohol days, what experience does he have in management ? personel skills, vat, social security payments?? I think the previous poster is right, tell him you have financial problems but want to stay with him and see what happens. I know one boy who had three farangs sending him money every month, another paid for his flat , he left them all and married a fifth who got him a visa to Germany! Long distance relationships with Thai boys are full of pitfalls more so if they work in the sex trade. I would tell him you care and will try and help with a little money but anything else will have to wait until you are living here permantly. Its a hard fact of life but there are a thousand Thai boys out there who would love to have you take care of them and will say anything they think you want to hear.

The opening post is a classic, replayed in all genders in Thailand. No young man needs 15K to live on, when he still has a job receiving money for massage and sex. A friend of ours saw his farang partner through a fatal illness and now is slowly looking for another partner, one year later. Latest applicant wants to fool around first, so he is not in the running for our friend's affections. This Thai man will never need money (he earned it already, by family money and by his marriage to his late partner). He is a great catch for someone who will be faithful. And he never was a barboy.

First, come to Thailand. Look around for a year or two, living without constant exposure to moneyboys. Look in the right places and you can find the right partner.

And that may be the advice you need, rather than what you wanted.

Just about any "old hand" here will tell you they have heard the "my ex prostitute is different" story about a million times. Do you feel lucky?

All of the posts so far are "spot on" and if you could combine them all and use the information in your situation, you would be well served.

In matters of the heart, there are few that can act in ways not commanded by their feelings.

Since none of us know you or your boyfriend, generalities are all we can provide and they, by definition, are rarely applicable.

Thai boys are masters at the "lonely hearts game". If you know anything about prisoners back home that spend their time hooking lonely men by telling them what they want to hear, you have a rough idea what you will experience with Thai boys.

The major difference, is that the Thai boy will fulfill your expactations, but for a price. If you can afford it, why not?

If he makes you happy, why not? Do stay away from setting up a business, just use the money to cover his money requests.

If you feel a job is important for him, have him get a salaried job with regular hours and others managing it. If you retire here, chances are you will want him around more than such a job allows.

Thai gay boys often want to "marry well", make a career of taking care of an older falang and improve their life style and their families as well. There are a lot of houses in Issan, and elsewhere, bought by falang for the families of their love interest.

If you can separate yourself from your feelings for a monment and consider your Thai friend as an employee who will provide all the "creature comforts" you desire, a "salary" for such services is a bargain, as long as it is under 10k a month. After all, you are paying for room and board and entertainment and holidays away, etc.

I once was told in the West, that no together cute young man would go for an older man when he can have young guys like you desire. Not much different here, except Asians can take care of older people more easily than in the West. So if your attitude is that your boyfirend is a "care giver" and you are willing to pay him for that service, all goes well. Your love for him and his reciprocation are just pluses. To make your relationship contingent on your idea of what love is and what he should do to prove it to you, yada yada yada, you are wasting your time and asking for a lot of heartache.

I have been in a committed, monogamous relationship with a Thai boy 30 years younger than myself for six years and it works better than any I have had in the past. However, it has cost me more financially than any other has ever done as well.

When I finally turned off the spigot of financial help, except for a modest espense allowance, he has accepted it, but will be traveling overseas to work and make money for his family, which he seems to feel is his sole obligation, despite six older brothers and sisters.

His caring attitude and efforts to make everything here work for me while he is gone have been heartwarming. I guess you can "classify" me in the "vacation boy friend" genre now!!!

Heartbreaking story. I think the OP knows what has to be done, but doesn't want to have to deal with the consequences. It's wonderful being able to come back to Thailand knowing that there is someone there waiting for you. I know it's not the same, but I do get a secret thrill when I land after an absence and the crew starts rolling in to punch me in the arm or belch in my face. It's reassuring to be wanted.

Without his massage pal, I suspect the OP would be lonely and sad. Just as I miss my buddy when he's not around even though I can drop 10K in a night when we go out clubbing and will bitch about it for a day until he says it was my idea. Is the 15K such a high price to pay for the feeling of contentment? Unfortunately it is. Cuz the love you buy is no different than a junkie's fix. The longer you are on it, the harder it is to quit. Massage boy is using the OP, just as the OP is using massage boy. Mutual exploitation is never a wise investment strategy.

30 is old by massage boy standards and there is a chance the old flesh vendor is ready to settle down and regain sovreignty over his rectum. Perhaps now is the time to have the heart to heart about the future. Bear in mind that if you are not there permanently, he will play and you may not like that. That's how they are, so it's best to understand that he won't change.

On the other side, there is my gay friend, who has had his heart shredded by farangs and has never cheated on anyone. He's done some idiot things in the past but has changed over time. He's the one I trust with my money and my life. Maybe massage boy is like him, but you won't know until you turn the money tap off. As another poster states, the true mark of character is how they behave when there is no money to be had. But then you already know the answer don't you?

FYI, you know the messages where he writes Miss you, love you so much etc? Standard copy and pastes. My friends and I often throw those into our emails because it is our way of laughing at all the girls (and boys) that have done that to us. The difference was that we could sense the insincerity when it happened. The use of empty phrases is a big clue as to where massage boy's heart really lies, and sadly it's with the next customer, isn't it?

Best to save your dignity while you can. 50 years of age is too old to be played like a 14 year old.

15,000 to help with rent and motorcycle payments? What is he driving, a Harley? Because 15,000 would pay for half of your average motorcycle in bkk.

But listen... if the relationship makes you happy then just go with it. If you meet a massage boy obviously he doesn't come from money... and if he's 30, then his massage career might be on its last leg too... I'm sure he does want to meet someone and settle down, he isn't young and marketable anymore... but still he'll want to settle down with someone that could help him out financially if he can. Can you handle that? It doesn't mean he's a money boy, not exactly... I mean it's not like there aren't women in the US who find men with money and marry them... it's a career move... haha

When you say things like he asks you if you are with other guys or whatever... it isn't really because he's madly in love with your mind... it's because he wants to hold onto you and all the things you give him... you're going to buy him a restaurant... I'm sure he can be a good bf if you are going to give him all of that...

In the end... just be a realist... your situation is what it is, and deep down you know what it is... just accept it and either take it or leave it.

Just about any "old hand" here will tell you they have heard the "my ex prostitute is different" story about a million times. Do you feel lucky?

Exactly.

And, as PB suggests, come to Thailand and check out the other 20 million Thai men (except mine!) before making your mind up.

Good luck

First of all, congratulations on getting seven responses to your post and none of them is outright mocking you - but, then, it's early days so watch this space.........

As ProThaiExpat said, the preceding posts (now including his) taken together cover the subject very well. I would add a couple of points, though. Either in later responses to your post or as you have already found in similar topics on here, you will see some members painting the Thai partner as a no-good, conniving scammer who is only out for what material gain he can get from you. Understandably, your reaction to this black picture is likely to be that your guy has done/said things that don't fit the description. My point is that he can be both - few people are only devils or only angels. Particularly in a commercial centre like Pattaya, there will be peer pressure from the Thai guys (and girls, probably) that he knows in the same/similar line of work. However golden your guy's heart (potentially), that pressure - not to mention his own established habits/attitudes - can be hard to resist; i.e. he can be and likely is a varying shade of grey between black and white.

Perhaps more importantly, I think you need to concentrate on whether this has gone too far, too quickly for you at this stage of where you are in your life. You say: "I was perfectly happy just seeing him on a holiday-to-holiday basis, but this increased the stakes for me in the relationship. He shared very personal information with me about his previous love life (with both women and men). He told me that he has a son and I have even spoken to him on the phone--broken English on his part, poor Thai on mine! Knowing that I would be responsible for my BF and his son brought new meaning to my life; it's a challenge that I cheerfully accept". Only you can decide if your last sentence is dependably true and a lasting feeling for which you are really ready now and in the years to come. My eye goes more to the section which I have highlighted - are you really sure that that isn't more where you really are/should be right now and for a while to come?

That leads me on to a further point. IMO, there are just as many farang "butterflies" (flitting from partner to partner) as there are Thai guys/girls with multiple "boyfriends" - all the more so when the farangs are just parachuting in from time to time. That scenario can't help but make for mistrust and instability on both sides - arguably a whole different ballgame when you are actually living here but, even then, it's more a matter of degree.

I don't know how far back through the forum you trawled, but a topic which I started three years ago is probably worth your attention - in its way, the experience I described then is not dissimilar to yours now. My view on some things mentioned in it has changed since I moved here in September 2006, but not a lot. A key factor from it is that the liaison between me and the Thai guy got way more involved than I had ever intended or expected at that point - and therefore out-of-balance. Sound familiar?

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...p;hl=cautionary

PS - I just spotted Rionoir's post that appeared while I was writing. Very direct but not overly harsh, I think. As someone else mentioned about the would-be restaurant - it's unlikely to succeed where others don't and also calls for an even greater long-term commitment from you............ something I really have difficulty in imagining that you are ready for right now. I see you as being on a slippery slope - and it's well time that you stopped sliding down it.

Lets just delve into the mind of thai's for one moment....just because he has asked if you are sleeping with anyone else doent mean he cares just means he is nosey...you can meet a bar girl and tell her you have a missus and she wil get jealous!!!

Its all about the money OP..sorry.....iv said it more than once on this forum..he was okay money wise before you met him and he will be okay after....if you want to no if he cares then leave the folded in your pocket!!!

The only true test

He wouldn't fuc_k you if you didn't have money, and you wouldn't give him money if he was fifty and overweight like you.

Okay, we need to remember the forum-wide rule against discussing barboys and prostitution.

Congrats to Steve2UK for having the guts to cite his own mistaken past and suggesting we learn from it. I met that boyfriend, and he was a "stealth moneyboy." And yes, there are a lot of farang butterlies here.

He wouldn't fuc_k you if you didn't have money, and you wouldn't give him money if he was fifty and overweight like you.

Hey now, I resemble that remark, 'cept I'm not 50. I prefer to consider myself pleasingly plump and my love handles give the ladies something to hold onto as I take them off on a ride of orgasmic delight up almongst the stars, cuz I'm a f-in supahstar.

and now back to reality,

This business about financing a restaurant. DUDE!!! (Is that loud enough?) you'll be tossing your money away on that business venture. The sois of Patong and Pattaya are filled with the shuttered ruins of disappointed investors that have seen their funds go into the slinky, sultry seductive scheme of bar and restaurant ownership. Unless you have lots of cash and lots of experience in the hospitality bizz, aint the wisest investment choice there. Might as well drink yourself into a coma. At least you won't feel the pain.

If you are paying the guy 15000+ a month he should be able to live comfortably on that without doing massage. I have a friend with daughter to take care of. He manages well on a net of 13500 a month. Sorry, but you'd be a fool to fall for him. It will end in tears.

He wouldn't fuc_k you if you didn't have money, and you wouldn't give him money if he was fifty and overweight like you.

OUCH! Put the gloves back on! I'm not ready for "tough love!"

This business about financing a restaurant. DUDE!!! (Is that loud enough?) you'll be tossing your money away on that business venture. The sois of Patong and Pattaya are filled with the shuttered ruins of disappointed investors that have seen their funds go into the slinky, sultry seductive scheme of bar and restaurant ownership. Unless you have lots of cash and lots of experience in the hospitality bizz, aint the wisest investment choice there. Might as well drink yourself into a coma. At least you won't feel the pain.

OK, I got the restaurant deal. And YES you were loud enough! I was just happy that he wanted to do something besides massage. I certainly can't balance my checkbook what's more run a restaurant. Point taken. Thanks for the BIG BROTHER pep talk.

Although the opening poster is no longer with us, we will leave this thread visible for its good advice.

This business about financing a restaurant. DUDE!!! (Is that loud enough?) you'll be tossing your money away on that business venture. The sois of Patong and Pattaya are filled with the shuttered ruins of disappointed investors that have seen their funds go into the slinky, sultry seductive scheme of bar and restaurant ownership. Unless you have lots of cash and lots of experience in the hospitality bizz, aint the wisest investment choice there. Might as well drink yourself into a coma. At least you won't feel the pain.

OK, I got the restaurant deal. And YES you were loud enough! I was just happy that he wanted to do something besides massage. I certainly can't balance my checkbook what's more run a restaurant. Point taken. Thanks for the BIG BROTHER pep talk.

About the ear whispering... When a fish has a hook in his mouth he will not go for another hook....

Thai wisdom..... Course 101

Errrm, for the benefit of those who feel they want to post more than a one-line response to the OP (as I and many others did).............. I draw your attention to the fact that the OP has been banned by Admin - which might make you think twice about taking the OP post at face value (as I and many others did).

Catch my drift?

That said, the thread still contains (IMO) a lot of solid advice for any who might really find themselves in a situation similar to the one described.

The opening post is a classic, replayed in all genders in Thailand.

indeed- as a girl who has dated thai boys in thailand this post made me chuckle.

But listen... if the relationship makes you happy then just go with it.

Yes. Stop worrying about "does he really love me" or " am I being foolish?"

If you enjoy being with him and are prepared to support him at some level, then spell it out to him. Think of it as a pre-nup even though there will probably never be a "nup."

You give him x baht a month for support, he should be available whenever you are in Thailand, etc.

Don't go down the agonizing path dealing with monogamy and celebacy or other things that are bound to give you ulcers and create a relationship based on lies.

You both have an itch that the other can scratch. Be happy with that. If you have visions of white picket fences, china patterns and His & His towels, forget it.

I have a friend with whom I've had a relationship for what seems like centuries. Sometimes we're together and sometimes not. What we do separately when we are hundreds of miles apart is not something we seriously explore. These days we don't see each other that often, but he gets a monthly stipend and is on call should I need him. Our friendship is now more platonic and practical. I also have someone who is younger and more energetic who visits every couple of weeks for a few days. It's not the stuff about which Barbara Cartland would write (or maybe it is ... never actually read anything of hers), but all parties involved seem content with the arrangement. Not very romantic, but it works for us.

Most important rule to follow in personal relationships in Thailand is "Don't think too much." It never solves problems, only produces them.

Catch my drift?

It was something of a textbook presentation of every possible "been-there-done-that" scenario. Anyway, there's bound to be someone else similarly afflicted who could benefit from the battle scars of the advice givers.

I wonder how many others he is playing for money...he`s probably doing better per month than most of us

I think you can pretty much see trends in a relationship from the way it goes at the beginning...

" ... He began asking that I help him with his apartment rent and motorbike payments after I was back in the USA. The monthly amounts gradually increased from 4000 b to 15,000 b with intermediate amounts in-between but always a bit higher each consecutive time ... "

Alex, I haven't read all the other posts in this rather long thread, so my advice (for what it's worth) may have already been said. I come at this 'advice' from a farang who's had a very satisfying and loyal relationship (now shacking up together) with the same Thai man for 8 years now.

Your quote above is worrisiome.

If the amount you help him out with is going up incrementally then I would suggest he is probably a player at heart. He could easily be a wonderful guy (I'll assume he is), but there is a dynamic there which you are not paying enough attention to.

If I were you I'd continue having a GREAT time with this obviously sexually-excellent man every time you come to Thailand. Wine him, dine him, enjoy him, throw money at him . . . make him feel good that he knows you, and keep his friendship and companionship strong on every visit: i.e. both of you have the best of 'sanook' as long and as often as you can.

But I think (from everything you've said on this thread) that he is not a one-man, long-term probability.

All this in my opinion only, and cheers ...

___________________________________________________________________

And ~ naturally ~ I only read THIS post by Steve2UK after I replied to the OP here. C'est la vie! (The downside of not reading every reply in the thread )

" ... Errrm, for the benefit of those who feel they want to post more than a one-line response to the OP (as I and many others did).............. I draw your attention to the fact that the OP has been banned by Admin - which might make you think twice about taking the OP post at face value (as I and many others did). Catch my drift? ... "

Just wondering . . . but why would a Board member be banned for such a thread-starter? I assume it's "history" and not this particular post, as it sounds on the face of it, pretty legit . . . although certainly not unlike a million other posts on this very ubiquitous topic.

^In this case, the user was banned on the basis that if it is evident a user has more than one account (or is a returned banned member) the new account will be banned. The topic itself is ok. But we're not really supposed to discuss moderation.

Dear Potential Counselors:

Please don't roll your eyes and think "here we go again." Please remember that I am a newbie and need help from you who are veterans of situations such as mine.

I met a massage boy ...[edit].....not be genuine.

Gratefully yours,

ALEX

You are being swindled. Pump the blood out of your penis and get it back into your head.

(sorry if my uncorrect english)

Alex,

- It's not easy to grow older in the gay scene, if you prefer younger than you, but it's all over the world ; the difference in Thailand, they see many times the man inside you, more than the body. A fat, or not cute man has more chance to find someone because they said "we see the heart"

- thai boys working together share everything, money, stories, customers, and it's good for them, they haven't easy life

- you converse in english I think. Is he good speaking, or only the few words the fuc_king boys learnt from each other between two customers (see after, for fun...) we loose so much between the two cultures, understanding is so difficult, and more you want to go, more you see it's not easy to show a feeling, to make understand your means... and the more I know Thailand, more I see their differences, sor far from our certainty.

- I have a thai bf now more than 6 years, met him in a gay place, but now he live/work in Chonburi, really not a gay spot. When I stay there, no worry about money, but home, I told him no money will come. I give him only to pay his room. All more will vanish for what the thais loves : alcool, karaoke, playing cards... Get money, he tried a the beginning : father had motorbike accident, former boss fired him because he fined him for the few days he stays with me...

- 15000 baths is a lot of money for a thai boy. Salary, when they have, il 4 to 7000 in the factories 6 days 10h. Be sure you help not only him, but many around... to look like a "sen yai" (big noodle) it's very good for a thai boy : means he has a good customer, and he can help the others, they share. But at least he will tell you it is for the family.

- you see everything with the eyes of love - we know all that sickness is curable - when your view on the situation will be with the real eyes, everything will be more clear for you

good luck and be "jai yen"