Security Tightens At Government House To Block Anti-govt Protesters

[frodo]

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QUOTE ( @ 2008-07-25 19:20:27) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

She isn't Armed either.

Will she get the same treatment as this one?

[Tony Clifton]

Faithful to their tradition, another miserable failure achieved with the police conveniently doing f*&^ all. Not even a single warning shot was fired in the air while the cops watched the beatings. They acted in a similar fashion they did at the World Plaza when pro-Thaksin beat up old men and a woman. Watch the footage and see them jump around while they accomplish absolutely nothing, I d even dare say it was intentional, again.

Cockroaches.

[Plus]

They... regard the Thai majority as unfit to decide on the country's leaders.

You somehow put people's right to vote higher than people's right to live. Blinded by your own agenda you mixed up all your priorities.

Whatever voting system PAD proposes, you will not be hunted down and hacked to death for having opposing views and with tacit approval of the government.

[sriracha john]

Khwanchai Sarakham, President of the We Love Udon Group in Udon Thani province of Thailand. He also owns radio stations in the city that have incited violence against opposition group People's Alliance for Democracy. His T-shirt shows former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

Fascism Thai style

The first fatality in Thailand’s internal war occurred Thursday in the northeast province of Udon Thani. Incited by the We Love Udon Group – a well-organized local right-wing pro-Thaksin support organization – hundreds of opponents to the People’s Alliance for Democracy quickly diverted two police officers who were not guarding the entrance to the PAD’s staging area in Udon.

The PAD was there to broadcast its message to the people of Udon, but apparently the people of Udon were not ready to listen. Armed with knives, sticks, hatchets and clubs, the large group, a human torrent, quickly filed past the policemen and entered the PAD area. They quickly dealt with the unarmed guards, striking them to the ground. The group moved in further, destroying the PAD’s stage, tearing up and burning its supplies and posters, and spitting on PAD T-shirts before trampling them underfoot and setting them afire.

Recorded on video – and already being assembled for criminal litigation against those responsible – the violence was shocking in the extreme. One PAD guard was killed and several dozen others injured.

Compounding the horrendous nature of the violence, there was a matching violent session in the lower northeast province of Buriram where Newin Chidchob, a Thai Rak Thai politician banned from politics for five years, is a powerful political warlord. With another PAD group assembled near the city’s main railway station, a mob of dozens of pro-Thaksin and pro-government forces moved in, smashing, shouting, beating and cursing the PAD supporters.

Both the PAD and anti-PAD supporters were carrying national flags and swearing national allegiance, but only one side was peaceful – the PAD. This is not the first incident, nor sadly will it be the last, where right-wing forces have reacted violently against those with whom they have differences.

What did Thailand’s current nominee government think of the violence? Interior Minister Chalerm Yoobamrung shrugged it off, including the death, saying that if the PAD would keep its protests in Bangkok, “where we can’t stop the protests,” then things would settle down.

Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej said the same thing, apparently indifferent to the casualties and lack of law enforcement to protect the peace.

In a duplication of Samak’s own role in past incitement of right-wing violence against pro-democracy demonstrations in October 1976, using Armored Car Radio as a platform to cause hatred and violent reactions, this time Udon used its own We Love Udon Group radio, FM 97.5 MHz, and FM 94.00 MHz. A program hosted by the group’s president Khun Khwanchai Sarakham, who also owns the stations, incited local listeners by citing the PAD and its followers as despicable persons who must be kept out of Udon.

For his part, after the fatality and injuries of the day before, Khun Khwanchai on Friday admitted to inciting local opposition and rough methods against the PAD. He also promised to continue the violent methods.

“We will throw them out,” he said, “whether they come in tens, in hundreds, in thousands or tens of thousands. Udon belongs to us.”

When a television anchor asked him during the early morning interview if he meant he was going to continue using violent means, he said “Yes.” He added, “Udon belongs to us.”

Udon, along with the other 19 northeast provinces where some 22 million people live and work, also belonged to the Thai Rak Thai and now the People’s Power Party of Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej. The entire region was part of a landslide victory in parliamentary elections in December 2007, and it is generally very difficult for opposition parties to find freedom to speak, much less set up offices and operate freely without fear of local violence. The degree of intimidation is implicit in the region, and bespeaks of a major inhibition in promoting real democracy in the region.

Khwanchai’s We Love Udon Group Web site, http://www.weloveudon.net/, was created on March 18, with a Bangkok-based IP address. The pro-Thaksin Web site is well-organized, containing an assortment of multimedia, including video and audio clips and recordings of radio broadcasts. The degree of content and organization reflects solid funding, and Khwanchai’s ties with Thai Rak Thai are well known.

What incited Khwanchai and others against the PAD, besides the fact that it is anti-government and pro-democracy? In the Friday interview Khwanchai said he was fed up with PAD swearing at the government and its efforts to spread its message into other provinces. Seemingly unafraid of any criminal litigation coming his way, Khwanchai insisted that the We Love Udon Group would continue and continue using violence until the PAD stopped trying to come into Udon.

When asked whether Udon belonged to him and his group, and whether or not Thai people have a right to speak in public against the government, Khwanchai admitted it only slightly. Instead, he concentrated his reply on the idea that Udon belonged to the people of Udon and he would fight to keep it that way, no matter what it took.

He insisted that "other people should stay out of here!"

- United Press International / 25-07-08

Edited July 25, 2008 by sriracha john

[^_^]

There were words spreading around that the Leader of Udon Lovers made an announcement to it's supporter right after they attacked the PADs, that Chalerm personally called him on his phone to show his support for their "doings" saying they have done the right thing in trying to protect democracy.

IF the Leader of Udon Lover's announcement regarding Chalerm's phone call is on video, maybe Chalerm shall be the next to go down?

Anyway, Suthep Thepsuban has made it his mission to collecting evidence regarding Chalerm's phone call to the Leader of Udon Lovers and regarding the 30MIL Baht paid to the Thugs.

[frodo]

When a television anchor asked him during the early morning interview if he meant he was going to continue using violent means, he said “Yes.” He added, “Udon belongs to us.”

Who is us? This terrorist group makes no sense. On the one hand they carry flags and swear allegiance to the nation, yet they refer to people who are not PPP supporters as not one of us? Does this mean PAD members are not Thai anymore? They carry a national flag while killing an maiming their own people. They sound exactly like the so-called separatists in the south, but even worse. They have no agenda except violence.

Let me take a wild guess. PPP/TRT owns Udon and it is their hope to create a separatist state where laws don't apply. If you're not one of "us" we can legally kill you by order of the Interior Minister. "You shouldn't be there." If you're not a member of PPP/TRT and hope to visit the state of Udon there will be a sign that reads: “We will throw you out, whether you come in tens, in hundreds, in thousands or tens of thousands. Udon belongs to us...we are PPP/TRT”

I was indifferent to the coup that overthrew TRT and Thaksin. Seeing what is happening now and the way this government operates, I am beginning to take a side. Though "democratically" elected, this government is anything but democratic and the longer it stays, the longer the good people of Thailand will suffer more.

Pseudo-democracy and mass suffering or a coup and a lot of hope.

[sriracha john]

Foreign Medias Put Udon Thani Violence in the Spotlight

The foreign media is reporting on the violence by the pro-government activist group in the northeastern province of Udon Thani.

Reuters News Agency reported on the action of some 700 anti-PAD protesters armed with knives, axes, iron bars, and wooden sticks to destroy the PAD's rally site in Udon Thani Province and attacking the group members, causing injuries to at least 20 people on Thursday.

Reuters questioned why police officers did not suppress the violence and why no wrongdoers have been arrested so far. It is considered a rampage stirred up by local politicians.

Meanwhile, the Associated Press News Agency revealed that hundreds of government supporters in Udon Thani have attacked PAD rally-goers with weapons, injuring at least 20 people.

The Associated Press added that it is the most extreme incident between followers of the People Power Party and the PAD members who played a significant role to discharge Thaksin Shinawatra from his prime minister post in 2006.

- Thailand Outlook

[Nampeung]

Just watched the video. For once, I am speechless! Let's hope the foreign media keep this in the news

[sriracha john]

Including the Buriram thugs incident, the overall injured count has risen...

Interior Minister Chalerm Yoobamrung and murder suspect son, Duang Yoobamrung

Exchange of blame for violence

Interior Minister Chalerm Yoobamrung and the People's Alliance for Democracy yesterday traded blame for Thursday's violence by government supporters in the Northeast that left 29 people hurt.

"Supporters of [former PM] Thaksin can't stand it and they come out to scare away the [PAD protesters]. If the PAD doesn't stop this practice of holding rallies in the provinces, they will always face angry government supporters. And the bickering will never stop," Chalerm said.

But the PAD accused "the puppet government" of unleashing "pro-government thugs" on its demonstrations in Udon Thani and Buriram.

Chalerm said the PAD's recent activities upcountry had upset government supporters as their beloved politicians, especially Thaksin Shinawatra, were "unfairly" criticized with derogatory words. "I wonder if the PAD is concerned that news has spread all over the world that Thais are killing each other [although no one died]," he said.

The PAD in a statement denounced the assaults on its followers and hinted that they would counter-attack. "People at the receiving end may finally rise to fight back. And that time is near," the PAD warned.

The statement advised supporters against holding rallies in provinces where "you can't rely on police and state officials for security" and urged them to join the PAD's campaign in Bangkok instead. It also called on Army Chief General Anupong Paochinda, as Director of the Internal Security Operations Command, to "show more responsibility than staying neutral" in order to prevent widespread bloodshed.

In Udon Thani, 15 people were injured, including two police, when furious pro-government people forced their way past police barriers to attack PAD supporters at a local park.

In Buriram, a pro-government gang clashed with police and left 14 officers injured when the men forced their way into the PAD's assembly and tore down the stage. Fourteen people were arrested, two of them from a PAD-affiliated group, for obstructing police duties and destroying property.

Kwanchai Praipana, leader of the Udon Thai Patriots Club, said his people had been attacked by PAD supporters first. Charoen Mookhachornpan, a local PAD leader, said Kwanchai had used his control of a local radio station to incite violence.

Democrat Secretary-General Suthep Thaugsuban said he had learned that funds had been distributed to provinces to hire participants for such anti-PAD activities.

"Some provinces got more than Bt30 million each."

- The Nation

[sriracha john]

Thailand: Protect Opposition Rallies From Attack

(New York, July 26, 2008) Thai authorities should ensure that opposition political rallies are protected from attack by pro-government groups, Human Rights Watch said today.

Since late May 2008, pro-government groups have attacked about a dozen rallies across Thailand organized by the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD), a coalition of groups critical of the government.

On July 24, 2008, in the most serious incident to date, police stood by while pro-government thugs beat and critically injured at least 13 PAD supporters and destroyed public property at a rally in Udon Thani province.

"Thai authorities have failed to protect their citizens' basic right to peaceful assembly," said Elaine Pearson, Deputy Asia Director at Human Rights Watch.

"By allowing pro-government thugs free rein to unleash violence, the authorities are putting Thailand's fragile democracy at risk. Officials should investigate these attacks and hold to account those responsible for the violence, as well as any officials who failed to stop it."

On July 24, Kwanchai Praipana and Uthai Saenkaew, the younger brother of Deputy Agriculture Minister Theerachai Saenkaew, led some 1,000 members of the pro-government Khon Rak Udorn Club to forcibly break up a peaceful rally of about 200 PAD supporters at Nong Prajak public park in Muang district, Udon Thani province. Local radio station FM 97.5 reportedly urged pro-government supporters to carry out violence against the rally. Pro-government supporters were armed with swords, axes, knives, iron clubs, wooden clubs, and slingshots.

News footage and eyewitness accounts show that local authorities made no effort to stop the violence. Some 500 police and district defense volunteers at the rally did not try to perform their duties even when thugs beat PAD supporters nearly to death right in front of them. And they made no attempt to arrest those who destroyed property at the rally.

Since May 25, tens of thousands of people have joined the PAD in rallies in Bangkok and across the country to express opposition for the administration of Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej. The PAD has accused the government of corruption, abuse of power, and being unpatriotic, among other criticisms. Although the PAD often uses strong language to criticize the government and has staged lengthy roadblocks in Bangkok, most of its activities have been peaceful.

On at least 11 occasions in Bangkok, Udon Thani, Sakon Nakhon, Chiang Mai, Sisaket, Chiang Rai, Maha Sarakham, and Buriram provinces, pro-government groups that are often associated with members of parliament from the ruling party have attacked PAD supporters, causing scores of injuries and damaging public property. In one instance, at a PAD rally in Maha Sarakham province on July 23, former Senator Karun Sai-Ngarm was on the stage when he was hit in the face with a marble from a slingshot and had to be rushed to hospital.

To date Thai authorities have failed to take action against those responsible for the attacks. In some cases, local police and provincial governors have promised to investigate the attacks and arrest those responsible but there is no evidence that this has occurred.

"The government of Prime Minister Samak should uphold the right to peaceful assembly as a basic component of democracy guaranteed in the Thai Constitution," said Pearson.

- Human Rights Watch News and Reuters

[tomahawk]

I am passing on something told to me by a person who is connected to a govt. other than Thailand,but who has close working relationship with Thai govt.Related to the topic of police non-intervention.Specifically this person stated a possible scenario,in some future time when hypothetically a certain number of conditions occur simultaneously.This being a collapse of Thai economy,a change or collapse of current political leadership,and rise of some powerful and charismatic leader.In this scenario the people look for someone to blame for their social and economic woes,and the aforementioned leader points the finger at farangs as being responsible.The people get worked up into a mob mentality,fuelled by existing anit-farang sentiment due to jealousy related to Thai women with farangs and economic disparity.Mob violence ensues and governmental security forces,perhaps out 0of fear or because they are in general agreement with this view,do nothing to prevent violence or aggression against the foreigners.

In a worst case scenario this erupts in outright mob violence.Or perhaps it would just result in further strengthening of visa restrictions and economic regulations.I am not trying to be a fear monger here.Nor do I subscribe to this theory.n truth I really have no reason to believe in this scenario.I am passing along something said to me by a person who does have a considerable knowledge of Thailand,and the recent events described here do not instill confidence in govts. willingness or ability to maintain order.

[nickynomates]

We all know that at some point Mr Farang will get the blame.

[grantbkk]

I am passing on something told to me by a person who is connected to a govt. other than Thailand,but who has close working relationship with Thai govt.Related to the topic of police non-intervention.Specifically this person stated a possible scenario,in some future time when hypothetically a certain number of conditions occur simultaneously.This being a collapse of Thai economy,a change or collapse of current political leadership,and rise of some powerful and charismatic leader.In this scenario the people look for someone to blame for their social and economic woes,and the aforementioned leader points the finger at farangs as being responsible.The people get worked up into a mob mentality,fuelled by existing anit-farang sentiment due to jealousy related to Thai women with farangs and economic disparity.Mob violence ensues and governmental security forces,perhaps out 0of fear or because they are in general agreement with this view,do nothing to prevent violence or aggression against the foreigners.

In a worst case scenario this erupts in outright mob violence.Or perhaps it would just result in further strengthening of visa restrictions and economic regulations.I am not trying to be a fear monger here.Nor do I subscribe to this theory.n truth I really have no reason to believe in this scenario.I am passing along something said to me by a person who does have a considerable knowledge of Thailand,and the recent events described here do not instill confidence in govts. willingness or ability to maintain order.

Will the Thai people rise up and smite the evil tourists first? Will the flash point be Siam Paragon or Soi Cowboy? Will the Thai people be embolden by the success of burning a Ford or Chevrolet on Sukhumvit and begin sweeping through the condominium buildings along the Chao Phraya and Asoke? Will my bank account be frozen and my ATM canceled by the local banks. Will imported food be ripped from the shelves of Villa Market while western businesses are being looted? Will Thai Airways gouge the foreigners trying to escape certain death at the hands of angry mobs bent on expelling all western influence? Oh the humanity! What is an expat to do?

This is just one persons opinion but with the exception of Thai Airways raising the price of last minute tickets out of Thailand, none of the aforementioned scenarios is going to happen. Life has progressed here to the point where the Thai people are not going to get together, review the Zimbabwe and Venezuela handbook on nationalization, and begin putting foreigners to death. I am not the least worried that because I have a Thai girlfriend my condo is going to be stripped of my televisions and fans.

The post by tomahawk appears to be nothing more than fear mongering. First we have the fear of death at the hand of roving, bloodthirsty Thai males and if that doesn't come to pass the government may impose more strict visa rules on expats. I love Thai Visa!

[hammered]

Foreign Medias Put Udon Thani Violence in the Spotlight

The foreign media is reporting on the violence by the pro-government activist group in the northeastern province of Udon Thani.

Reuters News Agency reported on the action of some 700 anti-PAD protesters armed with knives, axes, iron bars, and wooden sticks to destroy the PAD's rally site in Udon Thani Province and attacking the group members, causing injuries to at least 20 people on Thursday.

Reuters questioned why police officers did not suppress the violence and why no wrongdoers have been arrested so far. It is considered a rampage stirred up by local politicians.

Meanwhile, the Associated Press News Agency revealed that hundreds of government supporters in Udon Thani have attacked PAD rally-goers with weapons, injuring at least 20 people.

The Associated Press added that it is the most extreme incident between followers of the People Power Party and the PAD members who played a significant role to discharge Thaksin Shinawatra from his prime minister post in 2006.

- Thailand Outlook

What in effect you have in Udon Thani is a challenge to the rule of law. The video footage makes quite clear what happened and yet up until now the group that attacked remain in the stadium with no arrests made and the three local MPs vuisiting to give support to the group. Will the government that the MPs come from and the mob support allow this challenge to the rule of law to continue?

[hammered]

Many on here talk of democracy. I would just like to remind everyone that freedom to protest peacefully is a basic democratic right and that right should be defended for even those we dont agree with or there is no democracy. It is the states duty to provide protection to demonstrators not to stand aside and allow the armed gangs of local influential people to smash them. In its own way what happened in Udon Thani was a direct attack on democracy and probably the constitution by a group connected to the government. That is a sobering thought for anyone who really cares for democratic principles but one not surprising in Thailand sadly.

QFT. An excellent post.

Of course freedom to assemble is an important right and as Hammered quite rightly points out the principle should be extended to those with whom we disagree.However with all the rhetoric about attacks on democracy let's just remember that PAD's leadership is openly in contempt of democratic principles.They do not believe in one man one vote, and regard the Thai majority as unfit to decide on the country's leaders.They want to massively reduce the elected element in parliament and replace them with nominees.They certainly have some fascist characteristics as Chang Noi has pointed out.They also want the military to have political oversight.These are dangerous and sinister people and let's just remember this in the whipped up indignation at the incident Udon - thankfully it currently appears the victim not dead at all.So, in sorrow rather than anger since I respect Hammered, I have toregister surprise when he appeals to those who care for democratic principles in Thailand.The PAD leadership really don't.

I think you may have missed my point YH at no time did I comment on what the PAD is/was saying is right or wrong, and my personal view on that is that they advocate things I certainly disagree with. My point is simple and applies not just to Thailand. It is the duty of the state in a democracy to allow divergent views whatever they are. Many countries allow all kinds of left and right wing groups who advocate overthrow of the state to get on and make their arguements in public and these are mostly non-violent events. The same should be true in Thailand. Also anyone breaking the law in a violent attack on others expressing an alternative politcal view should face arrest and prosecution and not be lauded by the local MPs or anyone else for that matter as the case may be, and this applies to the PAD too if they turn violent. Surely we can all agree on that.

Sadly from what I see nobody with any power in Thailand believes in anything that could be described as meaningful democracy. We are seeing things degenerate into a turf war that resembles 3PM Saturday afternoons in 70's and 80's England rather than anything to do with reasoned political debate.

As a final comment and maybe a theoretical one, those who truly believe in democracy would actively fight for a platform for those who would like to see the system overturned. True belivers in democracy think it is strong enough to withstand challenges by other systems, and also recognize that providing a platform for all is an inherent part of democracy and without democracy itself beomes a hollow shell. Moving away from the theoretical I do know that the current struggle in Thailand is actually about power and not democracy and day by day this becomes far more apparent.

[sriracha john]

Police Commissioner orders act to be drafted on public assembly

Police Commissioner-General, Police General Patcharawat Wongsuwan stated after a meeting with his Deputy, Police General Wongkot Maneerin, that he has ordered the formation of a committee to draft a public assembly act. The order follows recent incidents with various groups turning to violence as they clash.

The draft will contain protocols for action for police commanders at various levels so that they may use them to control situations involving gathered members of the public.

Nonetheless, the Commissioner-General affirmed that the situation in Bangkok is still under control.

Meanwhile, Police Spokesman Lt. General Watcharapol Prasarnratchakit said the act will help control the situation, although it may limit people's constitutional right to demonstrate.

- ThaiNews (today)

======================================================================

It'll be interesting to see just what these constitutional-rights-limiting measures are.

p.s. Could someone please inform the Commissioner-General that places of concern, other than the "under control" Bangkok, are places like Udon Thani, Buriram, and Maha Sarakham, where things are "out of control" ?

Thank you.

Edited July 26, 2008 by sriracha john

[hammered]

Below is a press release by Human Rights Watch. Persoanlly I agree with it.

Thailand: Protect Opposition Rallies From Attack

Investigate Violence by Pro-Government Groups

(New York, July 26, 2008) – Thai authorities should ensure that opposition political rallies are protected from attack by pro-government groups, Human Rights Watch said today.

Since late May 2008, pro-government groups have attacked about a dozen rallies across Thailand organized by the People’s Alliance for Democracy (PAD), a coalition of groups critical of the government. On July 24, 2008, in the most serious incident to date, police stood by while pro-government thugs beat and critically injured at least 13 PAD supporters and destroyed public property at a rally in Udorn Thani province.

“Thai authorities have failed to protect their citizens’ basic right to peaceful assembly,” said Elaine Pearson, deputy Asia director at Human Rights Watch. “By allowing pro-government thugs free rein to unleash violence, the authorities are putting Thailand’s fragile democracy at risk. Officials should investigate these attacks and hold to account those responsible for the violence, as well as any officials who failed to stop it.”

On July 24, Kwanchai Praipana and Uthai Saenkaew, the younger brother of Agriculture Minister Theerachai Saenkaew, led some 1,000 members of the pro-government Khon Rak Udorn Club to forcibly break up a peaceful rally of about 200 PAD supporters at Nong Prajak public park in Muang district, Udorn Thani province. Local radio station FM 97.5 reportedly urged pro-government supporters to carry out violence against the rally. Pro-government supporters were armed with swords, axes, knives, iron clubs, wooden clubs, and slingshots.

News footage and eyewitness accounts show that local authorities made no effort to stop the violence. Some 500 police and district defense volunteers at the rally did not try to perform their duties – even when thugs beat PAD supporters nearly to death right in front of them. And they made no attempt to arrest those who destroyed property at the rally.

Since May 25, tens of thousands of people have joined the PAD in rallies in Bangkok and across the country to express opposition for the administration of Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej. The PAD has accused the government of corruption, abuse of power, and being unpatriotic, among other criticisms. Although the PAD often uses strong language to criticize the government and has staged lengthy roadblocks in Bangkok, most of its activities have been peaceful. On June 20, PAD supporters tried to force their way through police barricades to seize the Government House where the Cabinet sits.

On at least 11 occasions in Bangkok, Udorn Thani, Sakol Nakhon, Chiang Mai, Sri Saket, Chiang Rai, Mahasarakham, and Buriram provinces, pro-government groups that are often associated with members of parliament from the ruling party have attacked PAD supporters, causing scores of injuries and damaging public property. In one instance, at a PAD rally in Mahasarakham province on July 23, former senator Karun Sai-Ngarm was on the stage when he was hit in the face with a marble from a slingshot and had to be rushed to hospital.

To date Thai authorities have failed to take action against those responsible for the attacks. In some cases, local police and provincial governors have promised to investigate the attacks and arrest those responsible but there is no evidence that this has occurred.

“The government of Prime Minister Samak should uphold the right to peaceful assembly as a basic component of democracy guaranteed in the Thai Constitution,” said Pearson.

[Plus]

I think it's the first story in today's Bangkok Post - calls for emergency degree of some sorts. There's no denying that there a complete breakdown of law and order in Udon.

If there's no swift justice done there, Thailand would effectively cede the province to fascists they have no control of.

Though I belive the government will not listen - one after another they take to the microphone and say there was nothing wrong with Udon's rampage, except PAD. They'll probably charge PAD supporters first.

[sriracha john]

also from that article...

In Udon Thani, the centre of attention, 700 Khon Rak Udon demonstrators led by Kwanchai Sarakham remained at Thung Sri Muang following Thursday's clash with PAD supporters in which scores were injured. Khon Rak Udon yesterday denied they started the fight, saying the weapons belonged to PAD protesters who planned to use them against his group. Kwanchai said the violence would not have occurred had PAD supporters not organised a rally in the province. * it's the same, "The foreigner gets the ticket because if the farang driver hadn't been here in Thailand, there'd have been no accident with the Thai car running the red light" * :D ''I will fight against them coming here. If they show up here 10 times, we will meet each other 10 times,'' he said. People Power Party MPs for Udon Thani Thongdee Manissarn, Wichian Khaokham and Anant Sirphan yesterday turned up at the rally site to give moral support to the demonstrators. Muang Udon Thani police station and the provincial administration's public relations office were yesterday flooded with calls from residents who were outraged by authorities' failure to stop the violence.

http://www.bangkokpost.net/260708_News/26Jul2008_news00.php

Edited July 26, 2008 by sriracha john

[hammered]

also from that article...

In Udon Thani, the centre of attention, 700 Khon Rak Udon demonstrators led by Kwanchai Sarakham remained at Thung Sri Muang following Thursday's clash with PAD supporters in which scores were injured. Khon Rak Udon yesterday denied they started the fight, saying the weapons belonged to PAD protesters who planned to use them against his group. Kwanchai said the violence would not have occurred had PAD supporters not organised a rally in the province. * it's the same, "The foreigner gets the ticket because if the farang driver hadn't been here in Thailand, there'd have been no accident with the Thai car running the red light" * :D ''I will fight against them coming here. If they show up here 10 times, we will meet each other 10 times,'' he said. People Power Party MPs for Udon Thani Thongdee Manissarn, Wichian Khaokham and Anant Sirphan yesterday turned up at the rally site to give moral support to the demonstrators. Muang Udon Thani police station and the provincial administration's public relations office were yesterday flooded with calls from residents who were outraged by authorities' failure to stop the violence.

http://www.bangkokpost.net/260708_News/26Jul2008_news00.php

This guy would have made a great leader of a football hoolie crew back in 70's and 80's England.

[sriracha john]

Khon Rak Udon demonstrators led by Kwanchai Sarakham.... ''I will fight against them coming here. If they show up here 10 times, we will meet each other 10 times''

This guy would have made a great leader of a football hoolie crew back in 70's and 80's England.

shades, as well, of another Englishman 3 to 4 decades earlier....

We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France Udon Thani, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our island province, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender, and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this island province or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British fleet UDD, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's Buddha's good time, the new world Thaksin party, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old.

[Tony Clifton]

They'll do f*&* all about this and it will happen again.

[hammered]

They'll do f*&* all about this and it will happen again.

I hope you are wrong but I dont rememeber anything being done even when Chaul Leekpai was hit in Chiang Mai when an organised mob attacked a democrat party meeting a few years back, so you may be right.

This side of feudal upcountry Thailand where the local "owners" of the province use brute force to enforce their control is actually nothing new and probably wont change in a while, and people are mostly aware of teh situation and usually cowed by it. It is interesting that this time it seems larger groups are willing to challenge the "power that be" though. It is also a good development that events like this are getting coverage outside of Thailand as it may possibly mean at least some of the organizers of the heavies get done. Kudos to HRW.

By the way the breaking of the organized power structures that control the provinces as their own fiefdoms would be a good thing for all that live in them not just for some PAD sympathisers that many may not actually agree with.

[younghusband]

They... regard the Thai majority as unfit to decide on the country's leaders.

You somehow put people's right to vote higher than people's right to live. Blinded by your own agenda you mixed up all your priorities.

Whatever voting system PAD proposes, you will not be hunted down and hacked to death for having opposing views and with tacit approval of the government.

I don't follow you.You come up with a prescriptive definition (the people's right to vote is higher than the people's right to live) which is completely unrelated to anything I have said.I do believe that any government needs a genuine democratic mandate and only with feudal throwbacks would this commonplace be controversial.I do without qualification condemn violence by street thugs wherever it takes place.I do however believe that counter demonstrations to PAD are perfectly legitimate.To quote Chang Noi again:

"The PAD seems against freedom of expression and in favour of the use of abuse and intimidation to limit the freedom of expression.This conclusion is based on the way the PAD orators treat academics, actors or other public figures that have disagreed with PAD views"

Without condoning excesses in Udon and ignoring the dishonest rhetoric (hunting down and hacking to death etc), do bear in mind the bullying and intolerant behaviour of PAD.One has the impression that part of the current hysteria and rage is based on groups actually standing up to the PAD mobs, and more generally that the Thai public have now got the measure (yes I know PAD still has a substantial amount of urban middle class support) of the PAD agenda.As to what a PAD government might do this is in the realm of speculation but given statements made to date one can only be fearful.

[hammered]

They... regard the Thai majority as unfit to decide on the country's leaders.

You somehow put people's right to vote higher than people's right to live. Blinded by your own agenda you mixed up all your priorities.

Whatever voting system PAD proposes, you will not be hunted down and hacked to death for having opposing views and with tacit approval of the government.

I don't follow you.You come up with a prescriptive definition (the people's right to vote is higher than the people's right to live) which is completely unrelated to anything I have said.I do believe that any government needs a genuine democratic mandate and only with feudal throwbacks would this commonplace be controversial.I do without qualification condemn violence by street thugs wherever it takes place.I do however believe that counter demonstrations to PAD are perfectly legitimate.To quote Chang Noi again:

"The PAD seems against freedom of expression and in favour of the use of abuse and intimidation to limit the freedom of expression.This conclusion is based on the way the PAD orators treat academics, actors or other public figures that have disagreed with PAD views"

Without condoning excesses in Udon and ignoring the dishonest rhetoric (hunting down and hacking to death etc), do bear in mind the bullying and intolerant behaviour of PAD.One has the impression that part of the current hysteria and rage is based on groups actually standing up to the PAD mobs, and more generally that the Thai public have now got the measure (yes I know PAD still has a substantial amount of urban middle class support) of the PAD agenda.As to what a PAD government might do this is in the realm of speculation but given statements made to date one can only be fearful.

The PAD right now is a pressure group and long may it stay this. I certainly have no desire to see them take the reigns of the country and suspect many would agree with that sentiment across the country. I also would hazard to guess that they themselves have no inclination to move in that direction.

There is one difference when comparing the intolerance and bullying of the PAD and government. While both can sit and make speeches and ridicule and blame each other and pillory all opponents and both do this frequently only the government has the power to actually enforce.

Of course counter demonstrations to the PAD are legitimate an we must support the rights of people attrending them too. However, there is a difference between a counter demonstration and a deliberate organised attack, and here I will accept the neutral words of HRW in analysing this. Having said this of course anyone who wants to demonstrate about anything in a peaceful manner should be allowed to and the state should provide protection for them and when demonstrations are likely to clash should ensure seperation is maintained.

[Plus]

I don't follow you.

PAD's prescription of "new politics" is a response to a specific Thai situation that has reached a crisis point.

You keep talking about losing right to vote when armed thugs roam the countryside and kill and maim with impunity, and the worst part is that these mobs are led by democratically elected leaders, so there's something seriously wrong with the way the voting works here.

To further exaggerate the point - imagine that in the midst of Rwandan genocide someone called for the martial law to stop the violence. You'd be arguing that it wasn't democratic 'cos Hutu are in the majority and if their government wants to kill Tutsis, so be it. If Tutsis want to live, let them go to voting booths.

We've been arguing about legitimacy of PAD's demands to remove the government for nearly three years now. It used to be about corruption or incompetence, and we were arguing whether these problems should be solved via elections or street protests or judiciary.

Now we are talking about government's involvment in slaughtering its own citizens, the bar was raised higher, I don't believe some people are still saying - you want to stop this madness, form a party, create a platform, wait for four years and so on.

The fact that no one died in Udon is a lucky coincidence, the intent, the support was there. The brother of government minister directed the mob, three other MPs were there, and the reported Interior Minister's phone call of approval for a job well done was probably there, too.

[ando]

IMHO, PAD is intent on causing confrontation and civil violence in the hope of enticing the military to intervene in the overall political situation with another coup. The PAD leaders didn't get the violent opposition they had hoped for from police or political opponents in Bangkok, so now they are taking their protests into their oppositions heartland.

Its pure and simple provocation with foreseeable and calculated consequences. Its taking the right to protest and publicly vent political opinions a step further than what I believe was intended in the constitution. The PAD leaders are abusing their constitutional right to protest by looking for conflict in areas where they well know their protests will result in conflict and violence.

[Plus]

If that was true, how can you explain that PAD has cancelled their rallies numerous times at the first sign of trouble? Scan the news for the past couple of months - Chiang Rai, Buriram, Maha Sarakham - off the top of my head.

Current orders are not to hold any rallies if absolute safety is not quaranteed.

[Tony Clifton]

Heartland or not, it s no reason to violently attack folks.

The fact that scumbags are still commonly using fear up there in order to rule doesn't mean everyone thinks like them.

Nothing wrong with a minority expressing their views, something wrong with a majority coming in and destroying everything and hurting everyone.

A known celebrity who was there apparently mentioned that police formed a line at both ends once the attackers flooded in, making it seem they were actually doing something while the whole time they were trapping in the PAD crowd. There was talk of trucks on standby to carry injured and bodies away, hired immigrants were also present with the attackers.

Policemen jumping around like grass hoppers and not even a single warning shot fired. Cockroaches.

The whole thing smells of an organised attack with the police's help and local political mafia.

What happened to them? Just a few weeks ago I remember them inoffensively whipping around their smaller than average penises for the country to see.

Edited July 26, 2008 by Tony Clifton

[younghusband]

I don't follow you.

PAD's prescription of "new politics" is a response to a specific Thai situation that has reached a crisis point.

You keep talking about losing right to vote when armed thugs roam the countryside and kill and maim with impunity, and the worst part is that these mobs are led by democratically elected leaders, so there's something seriously wrong with the way the voting works here.

To further exaggerate the point - imagine that in the midst of Rwandan genocide someone called for the martial law to stop the violence. You'd be arguing that it wasn't democratic 'cos Hutu are in the majority and if their government wants to kill Tutsis, so be it. If Tutsis want to live, let them go to voting booths.

We've been arguing about legitimacy of PAD's demands to remove the government for nearly three years now. It used to be about corruption or incompetence, and we were arguing whether these problems should be solved via elections or street protests or judiciary.

Now we are talking about government's involvment in slaughtering its own citizens, the bar was raised higher, I don't believe some people are still saying - you want to stop this madness, form a party, create a platform, wait for four years and so on.

The fact that no one died in Udon is a lucky coincidence, the intent, the support was there. The brother of government minister directed the mob, three other MPs were there, and the reported Interior Minister's phone call of approval for a job well done was probably there, too.

I think others will have to judge whether your Rwanda analogy (Hutus killing Tutsis) is apposite to the current situation in Thailand - or a product of your inflamed imagination.